How does starting PPM dictate feeding?

[cravedog]

I run House and Garden coco drain to waist i start all of my babies and young ones around 5mil of A and 5mil of B !

I run tap H2o my bro runs RO we both add cal/mag. He adds 2x more than i need to because of the RO. He also stars the young ones around 3mills and doesn't ever get over 8mills. The RO is more sensitive but it will give you some great results and it will be consistent at every grow u have. FYI start low and raise your ppms up. I like to start off around 800-1000ppm RO start off around 500-800ppm

Peace

 

[Caspa420]

Add your 400ppm of nutes to the waters start off ppm so you will have 425ppm, if your metre displays as good as i do.. wait.. what?

& not sure if ppm's dictate feeding. man im so stupid

 

[jungliedunglies]

I run House and Garden coco drain to waist i start all of my babies and young ones around 5mil of A and 5mil of B !

I run tap H2o my bro runs RO we both add cal/mag. He adds 2x more than i need to because of the RO. He also stars the young ones around 3mills and doesn't ever get over 8mills. The RO is more sensitive but it will give you some great results and it will be consistent at every grow u have. FYI start low and raise your ppms up. I like to start off around 800-1000ppm RO start off around 500-800ppm

Peace

Don't know much about coco, but isn't there some particular reason why you have to add cal/mag to it?

Been wondering this about H&G. They don't have any type of cal/mag supplement, and I was kinda hoping there was enough in there already. Certainly for the price of Roots Excelurator they could throw in like a little hotel shampoo bottle sized freebie of cal/mag or somethin, come on!

Just out of curiosity, have you run without it?

On a side note.....
Starting to get the problem with talking in EC vs PPM now. Never really conversed about it before, but it's clearly hard to compare PPM numbers since we may be working with different conversion factors. 500 PPM for me is 1.0 EC FWIW.

 

[noreason]

From an osmotic perspective, I guess it's not the most intelilgent of questions. The more I consider it, what I'm worried about in this specific initial case is "nute burn" of very young plants, which ostensibly occurs when the dissolved solute concentration is higher outside the plant than inside.

I might know whether the dissolved solutes came from a nute bottle or an unknown source, but the plant doesn't. Water is going to diffuse according to the rules of diffusion no matter what. So now I'm thinking that for me to think I might lower the EC because my source is more pure or raise it if it wasn't was pretty poorly though out. Ooops!

No matter what kind of salts you add in the water.Only total quantity
is important.
I mean if you have two kind of water,both at 10.000ppm, but one filled with tap water, and one with RO water, the result on the plant will be the same, both plants will become sick, because salts suck the water out from the cells, let them to dry and die.

Said this, I think you're wasting time to think on this because the plants ''tell'' you what they want.
If you plan to grow hydro, start with a very low strength and if ppm drops just increase a little more.
If after some days ppm drops again,just rise a little bit again, till the water remain at a stable ppm level.
If ppm rise,stop adding nutes and just add only water.

Doing this you will find the correct ppm level for your crop, but no one can tell you the right ppm, you should find it for every setup.

I start growing seedlings with EC 0.5 where 0.2 come from the tap water and 0.3 come from the nutrients I add.

 

[offthehook]

Lol, nah man, just messin with ya. It was pretty clear who you were talking you...and there were certainly a few odd bends in the road before that last one.

There sure as hell were

 

[jungliedunglies]

Thanks noreason!

Admittedly, I was a little disappointed in myself when I finally got around to thinking a little more clearly about the situation, but it was starting this thread that forced me to focus my jumbled thoughts more, so I guess it's good?

Thanks very much for your input, makes perfect sense.

 

[noreason]

Thanks noreason!

Admittedly, I was a little disappointed in myself when I finally got around to thinking a little more clearly about the situation, but it was starting this thread that forced me to focus my jumbled thoughts more, so I guess it's good?

Thanks very much for your input, makes perfect sense.

You're welcome jd

I was saying you were focusing thoughts on a pointless thing, but learn stuff is always a good thing

 

[jungliedunglies]

Word man.

Your bigger point wasn't missed at all, but if I don't stress out and come up with answers to problems, then I can't feel like I'm in control of every little thing in life, and we all know that's no good !

 

[offthehook]

I second noreason's post at 10:36 for one hundred procent when growing on hydro using mineral nutes. (Did not wanna be a big mouth know-it-all and was just watching what all others had to say first.)

0.5 Ec is the perfect strength for a seedling to start off with according to my findings too.

There you have it Junglie d.

Now I would only like noreason to explain me why I apparently can start seedlings on 5.0 Ec when grown on all organics soil without burning them.

Are you willing to take on the challenge noreason? (And please don't come telling me that my Ec meter needs to be re callibrated, lol!)

Tbh, I think I know the answer(s) but I'd rather like to hear it comming from you.

 

[FreezerBoy]

0.5 Ec is the perfect strength for a seedling to start off with according to my findings too.

Depends on the water. My old tap was 0.5. Using tap alone would starve my plants. My new tap is less than 0.1. I feed seedlings now at 0.4.

Again, the number itself (assuming its less than 2.0) isn't as important as the degree and direction it has moved since last measured.

 

[offthehook]

That's also totally correct Freezerboy, but I naturally asumed it to be 0.5 Ec used in RO water, since that'd be the most optimal.

 

[noreason]

Now I would only like noreason to explain me why I apparently can start seedlings on 5.0 Ec when grown on all organics soil without burning them.

Are you willing to take on the challenge noreason? (And please don't come telling me that my Ec meter needs to be re callibrated, lol!)

Tbh, I think I know the answer(s) but I'd rather like to hear it comming from you.

The first question that comes in my mind is ''how he can measure soil EC?''
I think it is a difficult thing to do, soil is different from a side to the other of the same pot,you should do a lot of measurements and then take the mid-value?

I can tell what I understand about organic stuff (btw I like to grow in every medium with every kind of nutes, but I'm a newbie with organic )
Organic matters should be ''worked'' by the ''small life'' to be converted in absorbable elements.
Some kind of molecules are inert, and are not salts, they do not conduct electricity and they cannot cause the cells to dry.
So little by little, thanks to the ''small life'' nutrients are released and the plant can absorb it.That's why I can start to grow seedlings in some fresh manure without burning my plants.

If your plants really are in a medium with 5.0 mS\cm and there isn't any measurement error I can think it could be because the most of the molecules that conduce electricity are too big to pass trough the cell membrane with osmosis, remaining in the medium but not in the plant.
This is just what comes in my mind, I really dunno, but I would like to hear what you think about this.

 

[jungliedunglies]

Just a guess here, and I'm quite sure it's a very complicated deal, but one thing that comes to mind immediately in regard to water transport here is that organic soil is obviously composed of a great deal of organic matter.

If we are talking organic matter on a purely chemical basis, many organic chemicals are fairly hydrophobic by nature, meaning they tend not to be attracted to water. Still conductive to a much lesser extent than ionic components, so might register on the EC meter, yet interact with the plant differently than salts from the standpoint of H2O diffusion. I would think that this would have something to do with the situation on a chemical level.

Sort of suggesting that the hydrophobic repulsive forces between true organic chemicals and water may counteract the tendency for outward diffusion. Who's a soil chemist or botanist here?

 

[offthehook]

Well, let me start of by saying that by no means I would claim to be an expert on chemistry, and all I am planning to point out comes straight from my big thumb, a large imagination and a close to a life time of experience on growing weed having used a variety of different methodes.

So there I go, but gimme some slack guys, hehe. Not claiming any of this to be true ok?

First > I think that when I sow my seed in the soil, the little germroot protruding from its seedshells will absorb and adapt immediatly to the surrounding Ec content.

Second > Ec = nothing else as the amount of electricity conducting + ions of various kinds beeing counted in a solution of water right?
So then it would all come down to what KINDS of (+) ions are beeing provided by dying off microbial life and/or their excretions.

(and here I am with noreason who says that germlife dies off gradually, hence releasing ions step by step, but in living microbes the ions are chemically encapsuled by macro molecules and thus remain undetecteble for the Ec-reader untill they become "waterborne" again.)

I reckon that the +ions beeing released by dead microbe organisms or the excretions of their living counterparts are of a type that are actually BENEFICIAL and directly uptakeble to the roots, in contrast to mineral ferts were lots of +ions are nothing else as ballast to the plant and that only are present to produce the nessecary NPK elements to wich they originally were bound in their christalised form before beeing processed into fertillizer.

Maybe there could be more to it, but this is what falls me in right now about it.

Now hoping for some chemistry expert to drop by with the ability to bring it even more simple as I just tried to do.

Good luck,

 

[Hammerhead]

im sure at one point many of us grew plants with no PH or EC meters. I know I did when I first started. I grew relatively good pot back in the day with some very good keepers.

 

[offthehook]

I'm sure you are positively right there Hammerhead, but some of us just like to figure out now what exactly that it is, that makes our plant respond to their chemical environment the way they happen to do.

 

[jungliedunglies]

I'll sure second that....ya know, it really doesn't matter what endeavor you are talking about..............in almost every case, there are guys that go about things scientifically and guys that go about it more by intuition and feel.............BOTH OF THESE ARE VALID WAYS TO GO ABOUT DOING THINGS, AND BOTH CAN PRODUCE EQUAL RESULTS IN VIRTUALLY ANY EFFORT UNDER CONSIDERATION. PERIOD. Haven't grown dope long, but I've done plenty of varied shit in life to know this is true.

I'm gonna use a pH and EC meter....and I'm intrigued by the science behind my chosen hobby much as are many others on this and other sites. I appreciate the sentiment from those who grow more intuitively and "by feel", but my mind tends to be more at ease when I combine the two approaches to growing.

Think about the microbial world and all that we know about it's interactions with plants today. Particularly in organic growing, there have been all kinds of "home remedies" extant for years which were used, and effective; however, very few really understood the how or why. Well fast forward through several decades of science, and take a look at what we know now and how much more we can explain of these interactions on a molecular level.

Who is to thank for this knowledge? The scientist? The long time horticulturist? Well, the answer is both.......and just the same we need both kinds of knowledge shared on this board. OFF SOAPBOX.

 

[TREE KING]

if i were you id start your plants at 200 ppm. i never understood how all these other people can start there plants with a ppm so high cause ive burned plants at 300 ppm a bunch of times when there small. im really starting to think that with certain nute companies you cant raise the ppm as high as with other companies cause thats the only sense i can make out of it

 

[offthehook]

He he, Tree king might have a great point there too.

Be cautious with dirty "Dollar Eyed" rip off firms indeed.

A&B 2-component types of ferts are oft extremely high in ballast materials I noticed. Allthough you can grow huge buds with them, you better flush the heck out of them afterwards and imo one can still somehow taste that it was an A&B solution of some kind that has been used. Not on a positive way, But maybe that's just me...onder, ponder: Nah hehe.

Some companies or Grow Shops seem to have gone as far as to dillute their fert bottles even with Just a bit more water as is supposed to be (to sell more of it), so better buy brands that at least have a koosher seal at the cork, I'd say

I love having trust in humanity of some kind, but some individuals are just beeing plain pathetic fuck-ups, or must have had a bad situation for "untill their time acting out like that" beeing UP, one way or an other.

 

[TREE KING]

He he, Tree king might have a great point there too.

Be cautious with dirty "Dollar Eyed" rip off firms indeed.

A&B 2-component types of ferts are oft extremely high in ballast materials I noticed. Allthough you can grow huge buds with them, you better flush the heck out of them afterwards and imo one can still somehow taste that it was an A&B solution of some kind that has been used. Not on a positive way, But maybe that's just me...onder, ponder: Nah hehe.

Some companies or Grow Shops seem to have gone as far as to dillute their fert bottles even with Just a bit more water as is supposed to be (to sell more of it), so better buy brands that at least have a koosher seal at the cork, I'd say

I love having trust in humanity of some kind, but some individuals are just beeing plain pathetic fuck ups or must have had a bad situation for untill their time acting out like that beeing UP, one way or an other.

i just started clones of double strawberry diesel and blubonic and i burned them at 300 ppm. ever since then im keeping my ppm at 200 for at least the first 2-3 weeks. no joke. im using advanced nutrients 2 part. i also just got done flowing those strains from seed and i fried them when they were 2 1/2 feet tall at 400 ppm.