3 Amnesia Lemon, 3 different symptoms!

[greenops]

I need your help people, i'm so stressed out about my plants =( I dont know what they got (INFORMATION OVERLOAD!). Comparing the pictures I see in the sick plants threads with my plants, and reading about the consequences is freaking me out. I'm going to flower in about 2 weeks, so I hope I can get this fixed!

They are 3 weeks old now and started ok. On the first transplant into a cup sized pot, I introduced them to their new Plagron Grow Mix soil and I watered with a weak solution of Canna Rhizotonic. They responded with curling of leaves.

They recovered after that. Then ever since a week ago, , each AL is showing different symptoms.
So this is AL#1, AL#2 and AL#3



AL#1: a week ago, just couple days before the final transplant, i discovered some holes in the leaves. No traces of bugs. The holes seem to get bigger every day, but number of holes isnt increasing much.
After the transplant into 6.5 liter pot, the tips of the upper leaves started to curl downwards.




AL#2: overall has a light green color, kinda pale. I think its been like this ever since a seedling, is this just a pheno or is there something wrong with it?

Since the last watering after the transplant, the tip of the leaves started to curl down, and some even up.
There's some whitening/yellowing going on along the veins and tips. Also the new growth is yellow in the middle. And the entire buttom leaves has turned yellow as well.





AL#3: This one has overall a much healthier green look than the AL#2, but the discoloration of whitening/yellowing along the veins are much more visible. This one has also curled tips and the bottom leaf is half yellow half green.












ARE YOU USING?

SOIL:


How long has this problem been going on?

5 - 6 days

What STRAIN are you growing?

Barney's Amnesia Lemon


What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)

Seed


What is the age of your plants?

Day 1 under light was Sept 5, so currently 22 days old.


How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now?

Since Sept 22-23, 4 - 5 days now


Were they in the same mixture when they were seedlings/smaller plant? If not, what mixture were they in before?

Since Sept 8, currently 19 days

How Tall are the plants?


AL#1: 12.5cm, AL#2: 11cm, AL#3: 13cm - I measure from lowest to highest node


What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?

Vegetative

What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)

AL#1: Topped, AL#2: Fimmed, AL#3: Fimmed

What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)


6.5 liters. How many subjects to pot? Dont get it, sorry


What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)

Plagron Grow Mix with Perlite. The only info I got on this soil is: pH 5.5 - 6.5, EC 1.4 and 1.6


What brand Nutrient's are you using?

Nonthing yet, just added Canna Rhizotonic, once after both transplants


How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*

No feeding yet, my last water was 3l (diluted 70% dosage of Rhizatonic) per 6.5l pot

How often are you feeding?

NA


If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?

NA


What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)

NA


What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?

NA


What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?

Measure once after transplant of AL#2 and AL#3: first drops came it at 5.9 pH, then mid stream dropped to 5.7 pH

How often are you testing pH/ppm/EC/TDS?

I'm only able to test pH before every watering


What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?

pH pen


How often are you watering?

4 times, every 4 - 5 days


When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?

na


What size bulb are you using?

size? 250w in a cooltube


How old is your bulbs?

Got it since March, this year


What is the distance to the canopy?

33cm


What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)

40-65%


What is the canopy temperature?

avg 26C, 78F


What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)

21C - 27C


What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)

180 m3/hr, sorry dont know how to convert into cfm


Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?

Exhaust running 24/7, passive intake


Is the fan blowing directly at plants?

No, just above the canopy


Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?

Since last watering its still moist


Is your water HARD or SOFT?

Hard


What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap?

Tap, i let it sit for days in a container


If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?(Only if you have a tds pen)

dont have tds pen

If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?(Only if you have a tds pen)

na


Are you using water from a water softener?

i dunno


Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?

AL#1 topped, #2 and #3 fimmed


Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?

No


Are plant's infected with pest's?

The are Fungus Gnats in the house and dead once in the grow cabinet. I dont see larves in the soil...



THANK YOU for reading and helping me out!!!!

 

[RubeGoldberg]

it looks like a pH related lockout, especially since you're seeing multiple symptoms. It would mean your rootzone has strayed out of range.

I used to run plagron and would see this type of look often while waiting for the grow mix's amendments to get used up.

Might be worth checking the pH of the runoff again. In a Sphagnum based soilless medium, the pH will of the runoff will usually only drop in 2 scenarios.. nutrient buildup or the dolomite/lime got washed away, since your medium is fairly new, its most likely the grow-mix's pre-amendment dropping things down.

My feeling is that the pH in the rootzone is even lower than that 5.7 and your plants are out of range. You could add more dolomite to try buffering things or just flush awhile until the buffer already in your soil brings the pH back.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Hell yeah. Good info, RG.

greenops, one tablespoon of powdered, dolomitic lime per gallon of mix will raise your pH. It's better to mix in before planting but you can top dress in this case. Pellet lime will work but powder is more effective.

You mentioned packed mix in the other thread. Multiple waterings will do the same to a degree so don't fret about that. In the meantime, you may have a longer interval between waterings until the roots acclimate. They already look better than the first series of pics.

 

[bozga]

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap?

Tap, i let it sit for days in a container

If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?(Only if you have a tds pen)

dont have tds pen

If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?(Only if you have a tds pen)

na


Are you using water from a water softener?

na

Better get answers on the water! Check your water; if it sits and stays for days in container it's pH raises quite high.

Try usin rain water or use fresh water. If using tap water check it for it's quality.
peace

 

[greenops]

it looks like a pH related lockout, especially since you're seeing multiple symptoms. It would mean your rootzone has strayed out of range.

I used to run plagron and would see this type of look often while waiting for the grow mix's amendments to get used up.

Might be worth checking the pH of the runoff again. In a Sphagnum based soilless medium, the pH will of the runoff will usually only drop in 2 scenarios.. nutrient buildup or the dolomite/lime got washed away, since your medium is fairly new, its most likely the grow-mix's pre-amendment dropping things down.

My feeling is that the pH in the rootzone is even lower than that 5.7 and your plants are out of range. You could add more dolomite to try buffering things or just flush awhile until the buffer already in your soil brings the pH back.

Thank you RG, plus rep!

So your guess is nute build up. Could I have avoided that? If so, how?

Since the soil has a natural pH buffer, I think its safer for me to just flush the plants, cuz i dont wanna off-set the pH even more by adding dolomite.

By flushing, do u mean just watering the plants without nutes for a while, or water the plants with 3x the pot size? And do you think the plants will completely recover this way?

Hell yeah. Good info, RG.

greenops, one tablespoon of powdered, dolomitic lime per gallon of mix will raise your pH. It's better to mix in before planting but you can top dress in this case. Pellet lime will work but powder is more effective.

You mentioned packed mix in the other thread. Multiple waterings will do the same to a degree so don't fret about that. In the meantime, you may have a longer interval between waterings until the roots acclimate. They already look better than the first series of pics.

OK, i'm not so sure if I should use dolomite, I dont wanna make it worse. Do you think I could just let the soil dry and then flush the plants?

Better get answers on the water! Check your water; if it sits and stays for days in container it's pH raises quite high.

Try usin rain water or use fresh water. If using tap water check it for it's quality.
peace

Unfortunately i dont have the instruments to check on this. But i used pH'd tap during my last grow and never had problems. In fact the only thing i changed was the soil and the strain. Oh and the last time, I transplanted into a medium sized pot first before the final pot. I thought the medium sized pot isnt necessary anymore, might have been a mistake.

 

[greenops]

Does over-watering, nute build up and nute lockout go hand in hand?

It's been 6 days since the last watering, and the top soil still feels moist. At this rate it might take another week til its going dry...

 

[RubeGoldberg]

Does over-watering, nute build up and nute lockout go hand in hand?

It's been 6 days since the last watering, and the top soil still feels moist. At this rate it might take another week til its going dry...

overwatering mostly just effects hydraulic pressure within the plant (hence sagging leaves) It can also effect root growth.


Nute buildup and lockout can go hand in hand though.

Nutrients in the soil tend to drop the pH in most cases, even though the plants may not burn, the nute buildup can throw the pH off leading to a lockout.

I hate these uptake charts, but they're good for growers to visualize the importance of proper pH range..

In extreme scenarios, what starts off as a lockout compounds itself when the grower keeps feeding the plant which is unable to even uptake the nutes.

In your situation its likely the soil amendment causing it, not nutes you added. In the future, the light-mix from plagron might work better for you.

 

[greenops]

HA! So its the Plagron's fault!

So you think I should let my soil get really dry then flush them with water 3x the capacity of the pot, or should i just keep watering for a while,, normal quantity?

 

[RubeGoldberg]

HA! So its the Plagron's fault!

So you think I should let my soil get really dry then flush them with water 3x the capacity of the pot, or should i just keep watering for a while,, normal quantity?

haha well i don't want to blame plagron, but i used to run their grow-mix on a larger scale since i couldn't find pro-mix or sunshine mix in the country i was living and I would see these issues for awhile in early growth and the plant would grow past it.

Ideally you want a runoff of around 5.8 or higher,

next time you run some water through there see if it goes lower than the 5.7 you saw last time.

How long have they been in those pots?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Thank you RG, plus rep!

So your guess is nute build up. Could I have avoided that? If so, how?

Since the soil has a natural pH buffer, I think its safer for me to just flush the plants, cuz i dont wanna off-set the pH even more by adding dolomite.

By flushing, do u mean just watering the plants without nutes for a while, or water the plants with 3x the pot size? And do you think the plants will completely recover this way?




OK, i'm not so sure if I should use dolomite, I dont wanna make it worse. Do you think I could just let the soil dry and then flush the plants?



Unfortunately i dont have the instruments to check on this. But i used pH'd tap during my last grow and never had problems. In fact the only thing i changed was the soil and the strain. Oh and the last time, I transplanted into a medium sized pot first before the final pot. I thought the medium sized pot isnt necessary anymore, might have been a mistake.

(just read you don't have a pen, disregard the TDS/EC/PPM bullshit below.)

Avoiding nute buildup involves whether you're using pre-ferted mix. Allow plants to use pre ferts before adding more. You can also alternate plain water and feed solution in different intervals to get the range your plants need. Measuring runoff strength is one way to gauge buildup. If your runoff is substantially higher than raw solution, it might be time for plain water (strain depending.) It doesn't hurt to singe the leaf tips and then back off the solution strength. Once you've determined maximum EC etc, you can manage buildup accordingly.

Most of the commercial mixes I use have less buffer than necessary. Folks use bagged potting soil for many plants and some are acid lovers.

Some consider bagged or bailed potting mix in the same category as coco. If 5.8pH allows your plants to absorb Ca and Mg, I wouldn't add lime. If you have Mg defs due to absorption problems, chances are that lime will improve the def.

Those pH charts with the tapered range indicators are tough to read. Here's another chart with linear indicators. While it may not be exact, it's a pretty good reference.



Mixes I purchase average 5.8 pH runoff. A tablespoon of lime per gallon gives me 6.5 to 6.8. That's a big difference but it prevents Mg defs in late veg and early flower.

Use your own judgement about the medium pots next time. You can regulate waterings to prevent soggy mix or you can go with the medium pots.

It's possible you don't need lime. Can't say what will happen but your plants look better than the previous pics. You could put your pots on bath towels and see if it'll absorb some of the water or you can wait it out. Best wishes.

 

[greenops]

I think before I mess with the pH, I should measure the run off first during the next watering.

Please correct me if i'm wrong... I'm going to water without nutes and a pH of 6.5, and measure the pH of the first couple of drops that drains out of the bottom, and not mid-stream?!

So I'm planning to wait it out first and let u guys now what the run off ph is.

 

[RubeGoldberg]

depending on how you collect it, ideally once runoff starts coming out, if you can fill a small cup, thats ideal

you want a reasonable sample size so you can get an idea of the average pH in that root zone.

 

[greenops]

Quick update: The light just went on and the growth where I topped and fimmed the plants 6-7 days ago has finally resumed. I mean, they did grow a little bit, but now its much more evident.

BTW, between AL#2 and AL#3 is my Tangerine Dream. It's 5 days younger, and doesnt show any abnormal symptoms other than its kinda short. Nodes are very tight tho.



So here's the topped AL#1. New growth looking much healthier.




AL#2 also shows some vigorous growth. Especially the side shoots are far more developed than #1 and #3. I think thats becuz its directly under the bulb. The first pic you can see where it was fimmed.




AL#3 is still having problems tho. The new growth on the top doesnt look too bad. But the side shoot on the lowest branch has a weird 4 finger leaf and appears like its dehydrated and dying.. the other leaves on that shoot dont look good either.





What do u guys think?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Looks like you're making progress.

 

[greenops]

yesss finally a sign that theyre alive

 

[Rusty Trichome]

Just curious, but is the Plagron mix a peat-based medium, or a coco based medium? (makes a difference for targeting the proper ph range) Coco needs a bit lower ph than the peat, and coco will trap salts, so regular flushes are recommended.

 

[greenops]

Its peat based sir...

New growth is looking healthier, just slight yellow tips. The soil is starting to dry, even tho its still moist, the pot feels lighter.

Can we draw a half assed conclusion at this point?

If the cause of the weird symptoms was nute build up, lockout or pH imbalance, will the problems continue even tho the new growth appears to be healthy?
Or can i go on with my grow without worrying about nute build up, lockouts and stuff?

Is anyone familiar with Cannazyme? Its suppose to repair dead roots and it will make the nutes in the soil more available. Is it a good idea to add a weak dosage of cannazyme the next time i water?

Other suggestions on what I should do once the soil dries up? Flush? Water lightly?

 

[RubeGoldberg]

Just curious, but is the Plagron mix a peat-based medium, or a coco based medium? (makes a difference for targeting the proper ph range) Coco needs a bit lower ph than the peat, and coco will trap salts, so regular flushes are recommended.

its basically promix/sunshine mix but with nutrients added

there is light mix, grow mix and royalty mix along with a few others.
in a lot of europe its the main soilless mix available,

i personally hate using the stuff and would take promix any day

 

[RubeGoldberg]

Its peat based sir...

New growth is looking healthier, just slight yellow tips. The soil is starting to dry, even tho its still moist, the pot feels lighter.

Can we draw a half assed conclusion at this point?

If the cause of the weird symptoms was nute build up, lockout or pH imbalance, will the problems continue even tho the new growth appears to be healthy?
Or can i go on with my grow without worrying about nute build up, lockouts and stuff?

Is anyone familiar with Cannazyme? Its suppose to repair dead roots and it will make the nutes in the soil more available. Is it a good idea to add a weak dosage of cannazyme the next time i water?

Other suggestions on what I should do once the soil dries up? Flush? Water lightly?

Your lockout is pretty common in grow-mix, i used to run it on a fairly large scale and the symptoms you noticed were just part of veg. I'd just roll with the punches and use a lighter soil mix in the future

 

[RetroGrow]

IMO, when in doubt, flush.
At least flush one of your plants with RO water, not tap water, and see if there is an improvement. Flush with 3X pot size, ie., one gallon pot gets 3 gallons water.
Cannazyme is a Canna product. It helps remove dead root material, not repair it. Dead is dead. Rhizotonic by Canna or Roots Accelerator by House & Garden will stimulate root growth.

Which brings up the question, have you pulled a plant from a pot and inspected the roots? Highly recommended. Use a loupe & bright flashlight (LCDs work good).
Try a flush of one of the plants first & report back.