help me with my subpanel

[cannacoob]

i have a small closet i'd like to put a tent in. there currently are no outlets or lights in the closet but there is a subpanel. i was wondering if there might be a way to wire an outlet into this subpanel.


a little background, this is in an older house that has some modern wiring as well as old knob and tube style. there doesn't seem to be a ground bar so i don't know if this will even be possible.

any idea what my options are? my 36"x20"x63" grow tent will hopefully house:
- 400 watt MH/HPS (possibly dimmed to half power on digital ballast if necessary)
- s&p fan and charcoal srubber that exhausts through the ceiling into attic above

 

[Harvest]

What are you trying to accomplish? 400 and a fan isn't lot of electic, you can run an extension cord and a surge protector n be fine.

 

[cannacoob]

What are you trying to accomplish? 400 and a fan isn't lot of electic, you can run an extension cord and a surge protector n be fine.

i was hoping to be able to get power from the subpanel since it's already inside the closet. this would be better than running an extension cord in as far as stealth goes i think. i should have mentioned that i was trying to keep it kinda stealth looking. thanks for your reply.

 

[Harvest]

ahhh....I'm sure one of our electricians will be on soon enough to help ya out, I'd just google it for now, as im sure its possible, may be dangerous and I'd prolly rec having a pro come in and do it. unless im completely off diy...I bought some small throw rugs and a wire covers for my ext cords...pretty covert.
-H

 

[budleydoright]

you could grab a hot and neutral in there but appears to me that it is already very well utilized. Do you know what it is powering?

It could easily be done, which makes it all the more dangerous.

 

[Rowdy420]

As it stands the sub panel is full, you can disconnect re-wire one of the 20 amp breakers but this will leave you with a circuit somewhere else in the house useless. That wiring is not something I'm familiar with, normally single phase wiring is designated red and black for each phase. I'm assuming the sub panel is hooked to another breaker in the main box, this will help to know what size it's running on. Looks like there is no room for expansion and you might want to have an electrician come by and sort the situation out first hand, especially when your dealing with a system thats been expanded upon in the past. You don't want to have to deal with a fire because of overloaded circuits.

Good luck, Peace

 

[jungliedunglies]

Ideally you are correct, there should be a ground bar and ground wire connecting that enclosure back to the ground bar in the main. It looks like whoever installed it went with the 'use the conduit as a ground' philosophy which IMHO is a shoddy install. Especially in this type of situation. You can mount a ground bar in there, then land your new grounds to it, and your circuits would be grounded via that one conduit. Personally, I'd add a ground wire also.

There are many ways to do what you want to do. That pipe being there helps matters quite a bit in terms of options, but if you are not pretty comfy with electrical work it may be too involved.

That's a Cutler Hammer panel, and I don't recall if they make 'peanut breakers' (single space breakers with two separate mechanisms). If they do you could replace one of the 20's with one of those and there's your new space.

The potential problems come in terms of how much load is on that panel now? What size breaker is feeding it? Is the existing install safe and functioning properly? Hard to answer from here, but I'd guess no. I see what looks like a #12 wire on a 30-amp breaker which is a no-no. A poorly laid out panel which is already space starved. No ground wire. A conduit which is horribly over fill and has clearly not taken derating into account (unless that is a very short nipple back to the main panel). Makes me suspicious enough that I wouldn't recommend any amateur get in there, booty onto it, and go about their life care-free.

It could be totally cool also. You could have #8's on a 40 in the main, and all those breakers in there might currently be feeding piddly little convenience loads. In that case you'd be pretty much good to go. What it comes down to is needing a meter and the knowledge/confidence to use it. If you've got those things, I'd be happy to help....if you're in doubt, call a sparky. For sure it's not impossible though.

 

[FCDobbs]

It looks to me as if the neutral bar is bonded with a bonding screw. Isnt there a green screw there? That in and of itself is a code violation. More relevant than it being a code violation, its just one of a few things that tell me the dude that did that panel had no effing clue what he was doing. It is against the code to bond a neutral bar to the can anywhere other than the main panel in a house. Frankly I doubt there is a ground. If the conduit is being used as a ground it should have a bonding locknut where the conduit comes into the cane due to the concentric knockout. If that panel were in my house I would trace out all the wiring and verify that it is safe. The whole thing looks a mess. NOW that being said in your case I would just use a #10 extension cord to power your closet from somewhere else and forget about the rest unless you choose to address it. I say #10 because then you dont have to worry about voltage drop, resistance and other issues often associated with extension cords.


honestly I wouldn't recommend messing with that subpanel much without help from someone who can help you fix up the thing a bit.

 

[jungliedunglies]

You don't need grounding bushings on concentrics less than 250v to ground, so that's ok. You'll waste a shitton of money on a big job that way, and your boss won't be to happy with you.

I did see the bonding screw, but it's impossible to tell from here whether it's actually bonding there or not. Would be typical given that it's in there, but you can't tell without checking. You are correct that it should not be in there if not being used for bonding, which you are also correct should not be in this case.

That panel is not that bad though. It is a fairly clean job of wiring and the problems would not take a great deal of labor to fix. The raw material for a quick, safe, quality fix/upgrade is all right there. If you do get someone in don't let them steamroll you on the price.

 

[FCDobbs]

You don't need grounding bushings on concentrics less than 250v to ground, so that's ok. You'll waste a shitton of money on a big job that way, and your boss won't be to happy with you.

I did see the bonding screw, but it's impossible to tell from here whether it's actually bonding there or not. Would be typical given that it's in there, but you can't tell without checking. You are correct that it should not be in there if not being used for bonding, which you are also correct should not be in this case.

That panel is not that bad though. It is a fairly clean job of wiring and the problems would not take a great deal of labor to fix. The raw material for a quick, safe, quality fix/upgrade is all right there. If you do get someone in don't let them steamroll you on the price.

You are correct on the bonding locknut. I guess we can agree to disagree on the workmanship of the install.

 

[Hammerhead]

Would that pass inspection?. I'm not sure but the color of the wires are not right for 120v?
Red=hot not used for 120v
Black=hot
Green=ground
White=Neutral

 

[jungliedunglies]

You are correct on the bonding locknut. I guess we can agree to disagree on the workmanship of the install.

Just one of many mistakes I've learned from over the years, bro . Don't get me wrong. I certainly agree with you that the craftsmanship is lacking there; FWIW I very much like your take.

My only point was just that you've got a decent infrastructure there. Good quality CH panel (for a home at least) with a nice conduit run home and wire that looks like good quality THHN for the most part. Almost looks like some XHHW on the bigger ones which makes me wonder if this wasn't something done by a former sparky homeowner who was just too lazy to clean things up???

Certainly it's flawed, but I could make it nice for a resi panel pretty easy. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[jungliedunglies]

Would that pass inspection?. I'm not sure but the color of the wires are not right for 120v?
Red=hot not used for 120v
Black=hot
Green=ground
White=Neutral

Meh...I could see an inspector taking issue maybe if he had another reason to have a hard on for you. Black, red, black, red is fairly common convention for commercial 240/120 panel identification. Really, ground and neutral color are the main two that are spelled out clearly in the code and are not messed with. By and large, phase color is largely just a matter of convention; however, there are rules which must be followed when installing multiple voltage systems in a single building. Unless there is some obscure residential code I am unaware of, you could phase your two hots purple and pink and there isn't too much an inspector could say about it.

I wouldn't pass it myself, but for other reasons listed above.

 

[Hammerhead]

I would not have done that could be a costly mistake.

 

[cocktail frank]

you have a 30a subpanel at best there.
also 7 CCC in the pipe feed (current carrying conductors)
so some derating is applied to your overall capacity.
also have to derate for continuos use rule.(3+ hrs straight use)
your 30a sub is now way less than that
i would not want to draw more that 20 amps on that sub at all, ever.

 

[cannacoob]

thanks to everyone for all the replies. i really appreciate the discussion and advice. i'm not really sure what i should do now as it seems my current wiring is really sketchy. let me explain:
if you guys think that subpanel in my closet looks bad check this out:

this is the box that is on the outside of my house and is about 20 feet from the subpanel in the closet btw. this thing is scary looking and i don't even like touching it. i've lived in this house for almost 2 years and rent from a family member. when we moved in we had electricians run new wiring to this box for a new washer/dryer upstairs and a hot water heater.

another thing that's weird is i don't think this really is my main panel. there is another box that is about 40 feet from the house mounted on a pole where the main power line comes in on the property. this box is connected to my house somehow (i think) and also used to run power to an old barn, well pump, and small house that have since been torn down. here is that box:


i realize this is quite a messed up wiring scenario unfortunately and i don't know what to do. i have no idea what it would take to clean this mess up and i don't really think i could afford it. is there any hope?

 

[jungliedunglies]

This certainly changes things quite a bit. That's headed toward the ugly-ish side of things for sure. Far from the worst I've seen, very far, but not at all good. IMHO, checking that multi-generational hodge podge out via cable internet connection is not wise. That looks like an old Federal Pacific Electric-ish mess in the first picture. Hugely unreliable and stupid expensive to upgrade. Bad panel to have in your home pretty much unarguably.

If your house really is subbed off some remote old service out in the yard, that introduces a whole different array of possible problems which really should be diagnosed in person by a pro. Sorry that answer sucks, but it's true.

To be clear here, while the work in that original sub panel you showed is certainly lacking in craftsmanship and code compliance, it in-and-of-itself would not be a horribly difficult or involved fix provided a good situation was present in the main panel. Now that the main panel situation has been revealed to be what it is, I will retract my former "easy fix" stance and adopt the "it's gonna cost ya" one.

If you know any sparks, a service change can be had for anywhere from $1500 on up all depending how involved you ask someone to get with tying in old systems. Adding on to a system like you have there which has clearly been added on to many times in the past and is showing clear signs of age and degradation is not a recommendation I can make to an am.

 

[Hammerhead]

Holy moly batman what a mess that is lol. I would not touch that with a 10 foot pole. Do it right The first time and never worry again. Its gonna cost but is worth it to not burn down the house.

 

[nukklehead]

Holy moly batman what a mess that is lol. I would not touch that with a 10 foot pole. Do it right The first time and never worry again. Its gonna cost but is worth it to not burn down the house.

Im no electrician though I sometimes claim to know what I am doing with the Tesla.. I would say start from scratch.. Too much holy moly batman there for me

 

[Hammerhead]

is there another pannel somewhere? I dont see the main disconect? what is the amps that is supplied to that? I dont think you have even 100a. I have a 200a pannel.

Service panels /sub panels 100a 2 Gauge
Service entrace 150a 1/0 Gauge
service entrance 200a 2/0 guage