DWC PH rising too fast. Canna line nutrients

[rambo6372]

I also would like to add im in a ebb + gro w/ lava rocks. could the lava rocks be creating a reaction with the nutes to drive up the ph?

 

[Crush]

I also would like to add im in a ebb + gro w/ lava rocks. could the lava rocks be creating a reaction with the nutes to drive up the ph?

No.

Hydro PH just raises unless you have access to other water sources..

It's called 'PH Drift' and it's the 'big cover up' that everyone likes to hide about hydro. The only way to fix it is to use PH down every day or two in your reservoir. For my reservoir I needed exactly 8 drips every 48 hours or plants would be in trouble.

When someone comes along as says that they don't know what you're talking about and they don't have problems, just ignore them. If you are using city tap water and run hydro, you will need to PH down your water once every 24 hours or at MOST 48 hours. Once a day is preferred.

Also the plants will use up one nute like N more than the rest eventually leaving the reservoir with off nute ratios. Combine this with toxic salts and you got a bad reservoir. The only way to fix this is to change the reservoir completely. How often do people recommend this? Once a week! That makes this the most expensive way to grow and most maintenance for me which is why I stopped using hydro.

Again I got lead down the wrong path via grow lore. I wish people were more honest about the drawbacks of hydro. If you have well water with an RO system, then don't go running around telling everyone how great hydro is and doesn't require maintainance. Most people can't use rain water, ro water, etc.

 

[Midnight]

No.

...Again I got lead down the wrong path via grow lore. I wish people were more honest about the drawbacks of hydro. ...

That's pretty rich coming from you crush. Hard mode all the way baby! To the unaware, when this dude opens his mouth he leads you down the wrong path. Just saying, take whatever he says with the whole jar of salt. Carry on.

 

[FreezerBoy]

No.

Hydro PH just raises unless you have access to other water sources..

It's called 'PH Drift' and it's the 'big cover up' that everyone likes to hide about hydro. The only way to fix it is to use PH down every day or two in your reservoir. For my reservoir I needed exactly 8 drips every 48 hours or plants would be in trouble.

When someone comes along as says that they don't know what you're talking about and they don't have problems, just ignore them. If you are using city tap water and run hydro, you will need to PH down your water once every 24 hours or at MOST 48 hours. Once a day is preferred.

This may be true for you but, it's not true in general. pH moves up or down or remains flat in hydro depending on what the grower makes it do.

In my case EC climbs and pH drops, never climbs, because that's what I make it do. Both are adjusted once every two weeks because that's the schedule I chose, the plants and res don't get to vote. Because EC and pH move in opposite directions, I adjust both with water, not pH down. Rather than add pH down 3-4 times a week, I use it 3-4 times per grow.

 

[Midnight]

Zone 8...Why are you using GH nutes for veg and then switching to a different brand for flower? Those GH nutes will rock the entire grow if you use the lucas formula or the useless formula. All you need are the GH Flora series, nothing else. I grew these with it (useless formula). This stuff is the bombedy dank!

 

[Hempstress]

Do you give your nutrients 24 hours to buffer the water before you pH it?

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

You need balanced water

You need balanced water

It's not your nutes.

Your alkalinity is off.

This is from a pool and spa forum but the water chemistry principles still apply.

Water Balance
Water can be either Acidic, Balanced or Alkaline. If your water is not balanced, it could cause all kinds of problems. If it's too Acidic it could cause corrosion. If it's too Alkaline it could cause scaling. Both of which will reducing the effectiveness of your sanitizer. If your water is not balanced your water is not safe for you, or your tub. So it's really critical to get this correct.

There are four main parameters to keeping your water balanced. Water Temperature, Calcium Hardness (CH), Total Alkalinity (TA) and Potens Hydrogen (pH). Assuming your water temp is around 100 degrees, we'll just focus on CH, TA and pH. The best way to test these is with a Drop Test kit, like the one mentioned above. IMO Test Strips are just not accurate enough to test these, especially for a beginner.

Calcium Hardness: CH is basically the amount of Calcium in your water. The lower your CH, the higher your TA and pH need to be to have balanced water. The higher your CH, the lower your TA and pH need to be. The first thing you should do is test your CH in your tub. If you haven't filled your tub yet, test your tap water for CH using a drop test kit. If you have a water softener in your house, it will remove most of the Calcium in your water. That means you may get a different reading from your indoor sink then from the outdoor hose. Check both to make sure. If you have really bad well water i.e. lots of metals etc., you may want to fill your tub using the water softener water, then just add Calcium afterward. If your water is city treated water, you may be ok straight from the hose. Also, consider getting a pre-filter that attaches to your hose, and filters out some of the metals.

Here's my recommendation. If your CH is much below 100 ppm, you should add calcium to bring it up to 130-150 range. If your CH is over 100, you can leave it alone and just make a note of what it is. The CH level will be used to determine your TA/pH levels. To raise Calcium you add Calcium Chloride, aka Calcium Increaser. You can find it at most Pool/Spa supply stores. The good news is you only need to add Calcium once per water change, because it will stay relatively the same until your next water change.

Potens Hydrogen: pH is the measure of acidity in your water. It's on a scale of 0 to 14, 7 being neutral. The human eye has a pH of 7.5, so the ideal range in Pools/Spas is 7.4-7.6 with a min of 7.2 and max of 7.8. However, and this is important, just because you have a pH of 7.5, doesn't mean your water is balanced. If your CH is too low, you could be corroding your hot tub heater. If your TA is too high, you could be forming scale in your tub. Both of which will reduce your sanitizer effectiveness. So it is very important to have balanced water along with an ideal pH.

Total Alkalinity: Alkalinity is a pH Buffer. High levels of TA will not allow pH to change from additions of acid or base. However, a high TA requires a low pH to have balanced water. On the other hand, very low levels of TA will allow the pH to change with very little acid. A very low TA level could cause your pH to drop to low levels, very fast with little acid. Also, the lower your TA, the higher your pH needs to be to have balanced water. So as you can see, a very low TA can become very unstable.

However, pH will have a tenancy to rise with aeration (i.e. use of jets and air), more so if your TA is high. Although, as long as you're not adding Acid (or anything with a lower pH) to your tub, the pH will not usually drop. Therefore, in hot tubs the problem is normally pH rise (or Drift), because of all the aeration. So the trick is to get the TA high enough to not create an unstable situation, and low enough to not allow pH to rise too much.

Let me repeat the last sentence, because it's the single most important thing to keeping your water balanced. The key to having balanced water, without pH drift, is having the correct TA level. If you find your pH rises too high (>8.0) after using your tub, your TA is too high, and needs to be lowered. If you find your pH is too low and/or your water is continually acidic, your TA is too low and needs to be raised. By fine tuning your TA, you can get your pH perfectly balanced, that rarely needs adjustment.

SO, what's a good TA then? That depends on your CH. If your CH is around 150 ppm, your TA would need to be 80 ppm for your water to be balanced with an ideal pH of 7.6. How did I come up with those numbers you ask? Easy, I went to The Pool Calculator website, and plugged in a Temp of 100, CH of 150, pH of 7.6 and adjusted TA until the CSI was close to zero. This website allows you to calculate your Saturation Index, based on the four Main parameters, Temp, CH, TA and pH. If CSI is less than zero your acidic, if it's greater than zero your alkaline and of it's close to zero your balanced.

OK, how do we adjust TA then? If TA is too low, you just add Baking Soda to raise it. However, if TA is high, it's little more involved. You'll need Acid (Dry or Muriatic). Depending on how high your TA is will depend on how long it will take you. Plan on it taking around an hour to decrease TA by 100 ppm. So if your TA is 300 ppm, plan it taking around 2-3 hours. First, uncover your tub and turn on all your jets, air, blowers, waterfalls etc. Test your pH. When it's greater than 7.8, add enough acid to bring it down to 7.0. Keep aerating until your pH is 7.8 again (about 30 min), then add more acid and repeat. Every time you add acid you're lowering your pH and TA. When you get your TA tuned perfectly, your pH will rise to a level (i.e. ~7.6) and stop, then you know you're at your ideal TA level. If your pH is rising too high (>8.0), bring your TA down a little more. If your pH doesn't rise enough from aeration (after an hour or more), you over shot it and need to add a little Baking Soda to raise your TA. After a few days/weeks of monitoring it, you'll get your TA tuned perfectly. You may need to add a little Dry Acid once a week or two, but your water should be well balanced at that point.

I wouldn't go much below 50 ppm TA, because that could become unstable if you add any kind of acid. Also, if you have a very high TA, above 200, you may need to add more acid in the beginning to get your pH down. Remember, TA is a pH buffer, so the higher the TA, the more acid it takes to bring the pH down. It takes approximately 8 oz total of Dry Acid to bring TA down 100 ppm in a 350 Gal tub. However, the important thing is not to add too much acid all at once, causing your pH to drop below 7.0. That's why you should divide up the dosages, while aerating constantly. Also, if you lower your TA to 50-60, you will need to raise you CH to compensate.

Of course some of the chemicals in pool and spa maintenance dont apply to hydro, but the principle of balanced water does.

 

[Scrogerman]

wow sarge, thats sorta off synce with(what ive learnt over the years) kH, DH, GH etc. TA, CA is a new one on me! i understand
but lets read! this thread explains it better imo: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23357


But hey im still reaading through it for the 100th time+. great ref-thread!

after reading ya post, i think ill stick with BT's thread, but thanks for posting man!

 

[Crush]

Test your pH. When it's greater than 7.8, add enough acid to bring it down to 7.0. Keep aerating until your pH is 7.8 again (about 30 min), then add more acid and repeat. Every time you add acid you're lowering your pH and TA.

So essentially the answer is to use PH down if your PH is too high.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

So essentially the answer is to use PH down if your PH is too high.

No Crush. Go to the back of the line and re-read the info.

It depends on CH, TA and pH.

Hard mode baby.

 

[Crush]

No Crush. Go to the back of the line and re-read the info.

It depends on CH, TA and pH.

Hard mode baby.

Yes.

And the answer was...

to use...

ph down.

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

No.

Hydro PH just raises unless you have access to other water sources..

It's called 'PH Drift' and it's the 'big cover up' that everyone likes to hide about hydro. The only way to fix it is to use PH down every day or two in your reservoir. For my reservoir I needed exactly 8 drips every 48 hours or plants would be in trouble.

When someone comes along as says that they don't know what you're talking about and they don't have problems, just ignore them. If you are using city tap water and run hydro, you will need to PH down your water once every 24 hours or at MOST 48 hours. Once a day is preferred.

Also the plants will use up one nute like N more than the rest eventually leaving the reservoir with off nute ratios. Combine this with toxic salts and you got a bad reservoir. The only way to fix this is to change the reservoir completely. How often do people recommend this? Once a week! That makes this the most expensive way to grow and most maintenance for me which is why I stopped using hydro.

Again I got lead down the wrong path via grow lore. I wish people were more honest about the drawbacks of hydro. If you have well water with an RO system, then don't go running around telling everyone how great hydro is and doesn't require maintainance. Most people can't use rain water, ro water, etc.

Shocker, once again you are giving bad information. I change my hydro res and add 40 gallons of tap water and 40 teaspoons of Maxibloom. pH is 5.7 or 5.8. During full flower I add 5 gallons of tap water and 5 teaspoons of Maxibloom every day and pH is parked at 5.8. I do not use pH Up or Down. Let me be honest about the drawbacks of hydro, once training is done daily maintenance takes less than 5 minutes. I could hook up a true reservoir and leave town for a week with no worries, that is a drawback for sure.

 

[Scrogerman]

CA, TA, naaaa? kH, GH, DH, etc yes! its Hydro not a swimming pool! like i said BigTokes basic water chemistry thread explains it beautifully:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23357

but thanks for posting all the same!

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

wow sarge, thats sorta off synce with(what ive learnt over the years) kH, DH, GH etc. TA, CA is a new one on me! i understand
but lets read! this thread explains it better imo: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23357


But hey im still reaading through it for the 100th time+. great ref-thread!

after reading ya post, i think ill stick with BT's thread, but thanks for posting man!

Hey Scroggerman,

How you been?

Of course the pH, TA, CH levels discussed in the article dont apply to hydro, but the pricnicple of having them in balance does apply to hydro. Once you understand how alkalinity and hardness effect pH swing, you're golden.

I struggled for 2 years with maintaining quality water in my spa. My pH and TA would be all over the place. I tried all the bells and whistles the spa store could peddle. Kept adding chemicals and watched it get progressively worse.

I then found this article and viola, my pH and TA are rock stable for a week or two at a time.

Plus, the only thing I use in my spa now is baking soda (raise TA), muratic acid (lowers TA and pH), calcium chloride ice melt (raises CH), 20 mule team borax (adds borates and buffer) and bromine tabs for sanitizer. It's a whole lot cheaper than the Leisure Time regimen the spa store sells.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Crush,
If your pH is drifting, it's either because the nutes are too strong, too weak or your water balance is off.
Period.

 

[Scrogerman]

lol, Im ok, thanks for asking, hope ya cool yaself bro!

my point was the abb's/terminology etc, yeah we get it but not something id wanna teach. whereas BT's thread is solid for our purposes n should be taught. i'll always refer to it! now thats 'proper mode'!

You know the crack/Craic. G'Luck!

btw-wish i had a pool to play with! that is definately 'easy mode'

 

[Crush]

Well 5.8 burned my plants. The person at my local hydro grow told me the same would happen.

I needed in the low 5's to do well.

My tap water has 180ppm of all sorts of things in it including chloramines and fluorides. But that's just in my city.

If you have RO, well water, rain water, or 'small town water' it might be different than standard city water.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

To the OP.

Are you using tap or RO/distilled?

Like Freezer Boy said, aeration will raise the pH by removing dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid) in the water.

Here's a hypotherical scenario:
Your tap water has a pH of 7.2. You add nutes and your pH drops to 6.2 (chem nutes will lower pH). Bubbling the water may cause your pH to rise, depending on your TA. If you have high TA (say over 200 ppm), the pH will rise because of the greater amount of buffer in the water (your Ca and Mg hardness). Therefore, your pH goes back to 7.0. The water is seeking it's natural balance based on its CH, TA and pH and the aeration.
To fix the pH from creeping up, adjust the pH to 5.8 with acid. You've just lowered the pH and TA. Continue to bubble and check the pH. If the pH still rises, your TA is still too high. Keep adjusting the pH until it doesn't rise from aeration. 30 minutes of bubbling is plenty for a 5 gallon bucket to watch for pH rise.

Now if you are using RO or distilled, there's little to no alkalinity in the water, since there's no hardness. With low TA, you are open to wilder swings in pH as nute and water concentrations vary from plant uptake.

If the plant is drinking more nutes than water, your EC will go down and your pH will rise.
If your plant is drinking more water than nutes, your EC will go up and your pH will drop (remember nutes are acidic).
If your plant is drinking water and nutes equally, your pH and EC should be stable, assuming your water balance is good.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Well 5.8 burned my plants. The person at my local hydro grow told me the same would happen.

I needed in the low 5's to do well.

My tap water has 180ppm of all sorts of things in it including chloramines and fluorides. But that's just in my city.

If you have RO, well water, rain water, or 'small town water' it might be different than standard city water.

5.8 didn't burn your plants.
Your nutes being too strong burnt your plants.
If you keep the pH below 5.5 all the time, you are inhibiting uptake of nutes like P and Mg.

 

[FreezerBoy]

5.8 burns your plants? Sounds like a broken pen/meter to me. Have you double checked against test drops?