the guano i use is bat guano, the stuff i use (UK) is from indonesia and harvested from small caves that get totally full of guano - so removing the stuff actually restores the habitat to the bats!
Why is Organic Cannabis better?
- Thread starter Thomkal Vwalaa
- Start date
SativaHybrid
Member
Well this debate seems to be going strong so I will add a bit more I had over 50 links to many organic studies just to be obnoxious but karma must be a bitch because I cant get links from my college to work. However as verdant mentioned there is a huge incentive for fertilizer companies to fund studies focusing on the benefits of using them. All of the links I had where from MSU and when possible I find college studies are much less biased. That being said a google search for Msu organic studies should yield something. They also have a huge study on rock dusts ranging from glacial to volcanic and the benefits from mineralization would blow some of you Chem supporters minds. Also as a side note while much more skepticism surrounds it paramagnetism is an interesting thing to look into. Also to those who think that organic methods require alot of money you are looking at the wrong organics because a mix like verdants is "dirt" cheap. And lastly to those who have claimed that the Chem side has validated there side with attached links look over said links a little more. Little to none of them are applicable to the plant in question "cannabis" and none explain the organic methods used. As many have pointed out not all organics are created equal the good ones cost almost nothing and rarely come out of a bottle. Oh yeah it's been said before but if you want a good main stream agricultural comparison to cannabis look at wine grapes.
I haven't read the thread but stumbled upon it in a search, and just felt the urge to give my feeble insights to the original post...
There's an EXTREMELY complex and symbiotic interaction going on in the rhizosphere, between the roots and a multitude of bacteria and fungi. There's signalling through hormones and sugars and electric fields happening, to attract and repel the desired/undesired ones from the plants point of view. And these micro-organisms are even being fed by the plant, as it leeches sugars - and of course metabolic waste-products too - through it's roots to maintain it's community of little helpers.
The micros in turn protects the plant from antagonistic pathogens, they retrieve and partially process nutrients for the plant, and undoubtedly produces a wide range of complex chemical compounds that the plant benefits from in some form or the other.
Even we as humans gets naturally "inoculated" with bacteria that we're dependent upon for digestion and disease-protection immidiately after birth. And we are totally dependent of a very wide range of both internal and external symbiotic organisms to keep healthy and stay alive...
The level of complexity in interaction between a plant and the probably thousands of species and strains of fungi and bacteria that can form symbiosis either directly with the plant itself, or indirectly through some of the plant-symbiotic organisms, may be so profoundly deep and advanced that we might never get a full understanding of it - and we are certainly far away from having that today.
In short, mother nature all the way for me...
There's an EXTREMELY complex and symbiotic interaction going on in the rhizosphere, between the roots and a multitude of bacteria and fungi. There's signalling through hormones and sugars and electric fields happening, to attract and repel the desired/undesired ones from the plants point of view. And these micro-organisms are even being fed by the plant, as it leeches sugars - and of course metabolic waste-products too - through it's roots to maintain it's community of little helpers.
The micros in turn protects the plant from antagonistic pathogens, they retrieve and partially process nutrients for the plant, and undoubtedly produces a wide range of complex chemical compounds that the plant benefits from in some form or the other.
Even we as humans gets naturally "inoculated" with bacteria that we're dependent upon for digestion and disease-protection immidiately after birth. And we are totally dependent of a very wide range of both internal and external symbiotic organisms to keep healthy and stay alive...
The level of complexity in interaction between a plant and the probably thousands of species and strains of fungi and bacteria that can form symbiosis either directly with the plant itself, or indirectly through some of the plant-symbiotic organisms, may be so profoundly deep and advanced that we might never get a full understanding of it - and we are certainly far away from having that today.
In short, mother nature all the way for me...
well that was a good 13 page read. I think a lot of people take the organic thing too far, I choose to eat organic foods only because I lack other healthy options in the united states, if you gave me a food option labeled as non organic but also non pesticided/gmo (europe labels food GMO or not and guess what? no one wants to eat that GMO crap) I will buy that over organically grown food any day. Sorry but I'm not one of those chem or organic people. I believe the best herb comes from neither organics or chems, but understanding your plants needs. With that being said the best herb comes from using the best(don't limit yourself ie. organic or chem) and being the best grower you can be. This includes using the best stuff you can for your plants, this means the best of both worlds. I believe in using salt ferts as my base nutrients but I also believe in using teas to innoculate beneficials, azomite/sea salts so it has a lot of different elements to choose from, btw don't give me bs about nutes killing off all microbial life, I think it's been greatly over exagerated. I've never seen a pure chem grow. By the standards/labels in this thread chem growers who know what they are doing tend to put out better herb because most chem growers use organics alongside chems whether they realize it or not, but even full GH(I don't use but have in the past) has majority of additives being organic. Please try to be open minded, I'm not rooting for one side in particular, I've had great and bad herb that was chems and/or organics, it matters more on the skill/system of grower than it does nutrients being organic or not imo.
if your a good grower you can use either chems or organics and 99 percent of people couldnt tell the difference. i do both depends on my mood. i am working my way back to 100 percent organic tho. for me organic yields slightly less but tastes and smells a bit better.
Subjective.
Where's the double blind taste test?
Mineral, organic, and a combination of both to mix things up and lessen the 50/50 chance factor.
I bet the results would make everyone mad...
As far as the plants go, they're dining on the molecular and elemental level, + & - , so I wonder if they care.
Wouldn't Indonesian bat guano be as alien as Maxi-bloom to a plant growing on a Missouri riverbank or a garage in Utah?
Or is the whole argument about 'better' just bovine effluvia (or AN if you prefer)?
Hehe. I'm a troublemaker.
Mineral, organic, and a combination of both to mix things up and lessen the 50/50 chance factor.
I bet the results would make everyone mad...
As far as the plants go, they're dining on the molecular and elemental level, + & - , so I wonder if they care.
Wouldn't Indonesian bat guano be as alien as Maxi-bloom to a plant growing on a Missouri riverbank or a garage in Utah?
Or is the whole argument about 'better' just bovine effluvia (or AN if you prefer)?
Hehe. I'm a troublemaker.
cannadiancream
Member
This is an endless debate.Starting a thread with this title is opening the door for proplems imo. There are so many variables in turning out a nice crop. I dont think that there is really one way that is better for everyone.The thread title needs to be more specific like why is it better for my health or for the environment etc not just better. The results will all ways vary. You can end up with awesome or not so awesome organic or chem weed. Both have their advantages thats why i do both.
Chem route: Less materials needed and mess for the grow
it fun to build hydro systems and tinker with the rez.
dump nutes, top off measure etc. I find i can be more precice with feeding them and keep track of what the plants are doing.
Some runs were shite and some were amazing so im split.
Oh and some big ass funky buds
Natural route:Using plant and animal wastes/materials just feels right and awesome and i feel it has no impact on the environment if harvested in a sustainable way
The plant knows better than i do and will eat what it wants and when.
No tinkering- build good soil and water it lol( my ph pen is very dusty right now)
Its feels better at the end of the day. I could say that Organic tastes better but not always true and vice versa. I also believe it a mental thing and taste is subjective
I like both ways and can argue both sides but in the end it the individual and their goals that matter as far as how this lovely plant is grown. So in the end nothing is better than the other. Some turns out good some doesn't however you do it just do what works for you and if it doesn't try something else.
I really wish there was more scientific data as opposed to everyones biased opinions based on their own experiences.
Oh and a tidbit of my subjective bullshit for y'all. SAme strain ran for over a year started outdoors moved indoors, soiless mediums/hydroponics you name it. tried different organic bottled nutes dry nutes salt-based nutes. Nothing is as tasty or funky as the top-dressing dry natural ingrediants. Oh and another opinion i have is that for me to be truly organic i need to use plant and animal inputs only from local source or garden, use dirt from the ground not bagged up soiless mediums, use real light not artifical.
Thats all
Thanks
Chem route: Less materials needed and mess for the grow
it fun to build hydro systems and tinker with the rez.
dump nutes, top off measure etc. I find i can be more precice with feeding them and keep track of what the plants are doing.
Some runs were shite and some were amazing so im split.
Oh and some big ass funky buds
Natural route:Using plant and animal wastes/materials just feels right and awesome and i feel it has no impact on the environment if harvested in a sustainable way
The plant knows better than i do and will eat what it wants and when.
No tinkering- build good soil and water it lol( my ph pen is very dusty right now)
Its feels better at the end of the day. I could say that Organic tastes better but not always true and vice versa. I also believe it a mental thing and taste is subjective
I like both ways and can argue both sides but in the end it the individual and their goals that matter as far as how this lovely plant is grown. So in the end nothing is better than the other. Some turns out good some doesn't however you do it just do what works for you and if it doesn't try something else.
I really wish there was more scientific data as opposed to everyones biased opinions based on their own experiences.
Oh and a tidbit of my subjective bullshit for y'all. SAme strain ran for over a year started outdoors moved indoors, soiless mediums/hydroponics you name it. tried different organic bottled nutes dry nutes salt-based nutes. Nothing is as tasty or funky as the top-dressing dry natural ingrediants. Oh and another opinion i have is that for me to be truly organic i need to use plant and animal inputs only from local source or garden, use dirt from the ground not bagged up soiless mediums, use real light not artifical.
Thats all
Thanks
cannadiancream
Member
This is an endless debate.Starting a thread with this title is opening the door for proplems imo. There are so many variables in turning out a nice crop. I dont think that there is really one way that is better for everyone.The thread title needs to be more specific like why is it better for my health or for the environment etc not just better. The results will all ways vary. You can end up with awesome or not so awesome organic or chem weed. Both have their advantages thats why i do both.
Chem route: Less materials needed and mess for the grow
it fun to build hydro systems and tinker with the rez.
dump nutes, top off measure etc. I find i can be more precice with feeding them and keep track of what the plants are doing.
Some runs were shite and some were amazing so im split.
Oh and some big ass funky buds
Natural route:Using plant and animal wastes/materials just feels right and awesome and i feel it has no impact on the environment if harvested in a sustainable way
The plant knows better than i do and will eat what it wants and when.
No tinkering- build good soil and water it lol( my ph pen is very dusty right now)
Its feels better at the end of the day. I could say that Organic tastes better but not always true and vice versa. I also believe it a mental thing and taste is subjective
I like both ways and can argue both sides but in the end it the individual and their goals that matter as far as how this lovely plant is grown. So in the end nothing is better than the other. Some turns out good some doesn't however you do it just do what works for you and if it doesn't try something else.
I really wish there was more scientific data as opposed to everyones biased opinions based on their own experiences.
Oh and a tidbit of my subjective bullshit for y'all. SAme strain ran for over a year started outdoors moved indoors, soiless mediums/hydroponics you name it. tried different organic bottled nutes dry nutes salt-based nutes. Nothing is as tasty or funky as the top-dressing dry natural ingrediants. Oh and another opinion i have is that for me to be truly organic i need to use plant and animal inputs only from local source or garden, use dirt from the ground not bagged up soiless mediums, use real light not artifical.
Thats all
Thanks
Chem route: Less materials needed and mess for the grow
it fun to build hydro systems and tinker with the rez.
dump nutes, top off measure etc. I find i can be more precice with feeding them and keep track of what the plants are doing.
Some runs were shite and some were amazing so im split.
Oh and some big ass funky buds
Natural route:Using plant and animal wastes/materials just feels right and awesome and i feel it has no impact on the environment if harvested in a sustainable way
The plant knows better than i do and will eat what it wants and when.
No tinkering- build good soil and water it lol( my ph pen is very dusty right now)
Its feels better at the end of the day. I could say that Organic tastes better but not always true and vice versa. I also believe it a mental thing and taste is subjective
I like both ways and can argue both sides but in the end it the individual and their goals that matter as far as how this lovely plant is grown. So in the end nothing is better than the other. Some turns out good some doesn't however you do it just do what works for you and if it doesn't try something else.
I really wish there was more scientific data as opposed to everyones biased opinions based on their own experiences.
Oh and a tidbit of my subjective bullshit for y'all. SAme strain ran for over a year started outdoors moved indoors, soiless mediums/hydroponics you name it. tried different organic bottled nutes dry nutes salt-based nutes. Nothing is as tasty or funky as the top-dressing dry natural ingrediants. Oh and another opinion i have is that for me to be truly organic i need to use plant and animal inputs only from local source or garden, use dirt from the ground not bagged up soiless mediums, use real light not artifical.
Thats all
Thanks
end of discussion, it comes down to the skills of the grower, if you give the plant what it needs when it needs it, dry and cure right, you should have some good weed, chem or organic.
i choose chem indoor cause its cleaner and who wants a basement full of dirt and mud and worm poo smoothies,
outdoors i'd go organic all day.
In my experience no plants or animals do well when being force fed. Most chem growers are essentially doing the equivalent of force feeding their plants, so I could see how organic growing techniques create a more balanced and overall healthy crop.
Don't have any science to back it up, but it makes sense intuitively.
(no hurricanes gunna fuck up my harvest chyea)i agree
with chems and additives i got a bit more yield but in organics i get a more natural taste
i dont taste this when i smoke , only when i vape i can tell the difference
and i cant tell the difference between organics and chems i can however tell when a plant has had a booster or somehting like that(in the vape)
And that's why i also think organics are better(solid organics used by farmers)
Often people say a plant cant tell if N P and K are organic and that is true , but it is not about the N P and K
Those additives and boosters, nutes have so much other stuff in them it just changes the character of the pot.
My friends LOVE it when i use green sensation for example , makes the weed nice and sweet nice and smooth compact nugs nice chrystals faster growth
But i dont like weed grown with this at all (in the vape) , the difference is small but only becomes clear when you vape multiple strains cuz THEN you see that the 100% organic ones taste just like the smell
the ones with additives taste a bit like the smell but all share certain background tastes
I'm not saying it tastes bad , it just tastes so artificial , it is smooth but just not real i guess
That is my experience with this and i'm sticking for the time being with dried shit and water cuz everytime i tried some special product , designed for cannabis , i dont like how my pot comes out
If i where to sell it ok great but i have to use it myself and i want that natural taste
desertsquirrel
Member
The plant can tell its organic because its unavailable. Organic nutrients are only available after they have mineralized into inorganic ions.
No matter what your putting into your solution, the plant can only use inorganic nutrients.
What exactly is the chemical that worries the religion of organics? My nute solution closely resembles a multi vitamin in analysis.
No matter what your putting into your solution, the plant can only use inorganic nutrients.
What exactly is the chemical that worries the religion of organics? My nute solution closely resembles a multi vitamin in analysis.
BasementBreeder
Member
DS
At the risk of reigniting an old controversy(see spurrr's thread in the nutrient section if you don't know what I mean), plants can and do absorb organic forms of nitrogen(I have a couple sources for this) and possibly organic phosphorous(no source, just spurrr's comments).
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that, quality wise, proper chem grown is >= organic grown.
At the risk of reigniting an old controversy(see spurrr's thread in the nutrient section if you don't know what I mean), plants can and do absorb organic forms of nitrogen(I have a couple sources for this) and possibly organic phosphorous(no source, just spurrr's comments).
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that, quality wise, proper chem grown is >= organic grown.
In a mineral nute mix, the nutes are available 100% of the time. In organics they need to be broken down. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with this.
However, couldnt the process of breaking down of the nutrients, result in by products, that are beneficial to the plant? In other words, perhaps an organic process of breaking down the nutrients, creates 'additives' that benefit the plant. In many hydro systems, additives comprised of more than mineral salts are very popular and people swear by them.
This leads me to believe that there is a more complex process than the simple uptake of npk and micros etc. So although it IS true, that organics get broken down into ions, like all other nutes, I havent found an explanation for the assumptionm that the ONLY thing that determines plant quality, is which and how many ions, are absorbed by a plant.
This assumption would, imply that additives are not useful in hydro. It also would indicate that TIME of aborption had no bearing. Unfortunately, it is not often talked about even though it IS the deeper issue at hand imo
desertsquirrel
Member
Very thoughtful post Zor, your absolutely correct, and as basement pointed out DON, DOP, etc are some of the things that you speak of.
There is no question organic gardening and organic fertilizer options can be the optimal choice for many agricultural and horticultural applications. However, in my experience organic gardeners are a bit more Taliban in their approach then you all seem to be, I'm glad we can have a discussion.
In my experience (I run organic and chemical nutes in every media) harshness is strictly a matter of growing and curing and not an organic/chemical issue. Some of the harshest medicine i have ever smoked was organic.
However I do think they differ in one main respect, the chemical is a little bit stronger and the organic is a little bit sweeter. Even this isn't always true, but its true more often then its not.
And obviously the yields.
