Spurr's: Aerated Deep Flow Technique (work in progress)

[spurr]

Hello,

I am introducing (and asking for input) on my design for what I call "Aerated Deep Flow Technique"; a hybrid of DFT and compost tea brewers (re air lift). A few people have contacted me and asked for my design plans, which are in 3D (ex., you can look inside the reservoir, tray and air lift!), so instead of sending each person my designs, I will post/upload everything here.

I have been designing a water culture hydroponic system ideal for use with (a) conventional growing; (b) using only microbes and aerated compost tea for fertilizers (i.e., 'biological organic' growing); (c) using bioponics (ex., talapia); and (d) bioponics with biological organics (mixing b and c).

My goals are simple:

• Few moving parts for reliability and low cost
• DO of at least 8 ppm (mg/L; ideally 9-10 ppm) at roots, through all water temps (ex., for fish temp should be ~75-78'F)
• No use of water pumps that can injure and hinder microbes
• Sufficient water flow rate, to help keep DO at 8-10 ppm.
• Sufficient 'head room' between water and bottom of lid, at least 1/2" is needed for plants to develop copious "air roots", if RH at roots stays high.
• Passive reservoir refill system using float value for automated addition of water and fertilizer (i.e., "refill fertilizer solution", ex., 1/3 strength of "starter fertilizer solution"), or microbes, to the reservoir.
• Easy to access to water in reservoir.
• Using things I have at home, ex., Bontanicare reservoir for 3'x3' ebb/flow tray, lumbar, air compressor, etc.

I have plans to run trials of conventional vs. biological organic vs. biopoinc/biological organic growing; for all sorts of measurable plant responses (using cannabis of course). To that end, I have been working on ideal fertilizer solutions for cannabis using inorganic salts (from salt compounds). As well as working on making the best aerated compost tea I am able, verifying with my microscope. I have yet to have raise talapia.

My goal is to try and take as many variables out of the equation as possible when studying plants (ex., cannabis). Especially with respect to various growing methods (inorganic vs. biological organic) and styles (ex,. FIM vs. LST). To do that, the plants need to be grown using as similar conditions as possible, and root conditions can greatly impact plant growth (ex., hydroton vs. peat moss; water culture vs. soilless culture).

Air lift feature:

The air lift will be used in place of a water pump, as to not injure microbes, and to increase DO. The design is simple: air bubbles (from an air diffuser) are used move water from the reservoir to the tray. Gravity will cycle the water back to the reservoir. Here are two YouTube videos that will give a better idea of how an air lift works (the first one does a good job explaining):

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vicfxM6O27o
• https://www.youtube.com/user/claywade77#p/a/u/0/HF_JqGyPXXM

Notes:

• In the first screen shot below, the cold water reservoir (i.e., "water chiller tank") and the refill tank are not to scale.
• In the third screen shot below, the horizontal and vertical lines are axis lines, I forgot to make them hidden, sorry!
• In the third screen shot below, the volumes listed are for the actual volume of water, not the total volume of the reservoir and tray.
• I would prefer to use a reservoir as along as the table, I am using the only reservoir I have on hand (the one in my designs)
• I have a water chiller I use with IceBoxes, but I plan to also use the cold water reservoir (from the chiller) to cool the reservoir of my ADFT system. I plan to use copper piping/coil in the ADFT reservoir, connected to the cold water reservoir via. piping/hosing, where a water pump moves cold water through the copper piping to chill the ADFT reservoir. (i'm going to use the kind of piping made for hydro reservoir ... )
• I am thinking about changing the angle of incline from 2 degrees, to 1 degree.
• In the screen shots below, from Google SketchUp 3D rendering application, I forgot to add one foot of space between the reservoir and tray. The space will be needed when I test bioponics with aerated compost tea.

Anyway, enough jibber jabber. Below are the screen shots that tell the most, they should tell everything that is needed for my design.


I uploaded my Google SketchUp 3D design, for my ADFT system, to this post. Download the file, rename from "ADFT-beta.txt" to "ADFT-beta.7z", then use 7zip (or WinRar) to decompress the file. If Google SketchUp is installed on your system, simply double click on the file "ADFT-beta.skp". The SHA-1 hash of the file "ADFT-beta.txt" is: 2C8AB5C07688AF7780808F1B2606434B4DB31DCE (that can be used to verify correct download of file).

 

[spurr]

Re: glass bonded air diffusers ...

I don't use those blue air stones, they are way too cheap quality, can't really be cleaned, have relativity large bubbles, and they break apart over time. Below is something I wrote in a couple of other threads, but I think it's good to post it in this thread too:

These are types of diffusers we should be using with air (i.e., ~21% O2):

Porous plastic diffuser tubes (fine/med pore):

• bubble size = ???
• pore size = 15-30 microns
• clean with muratic acid
• http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1561/Porous-Plastic-Diffuser-Tubes

Sweetwater (med pore):

• bubble size = 1,000-3,000 micron (1-3 mm)
• clean with muratic acid
• http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3533/Sweetwater-Air-Diffusers

And these diffusers should be used with pure oxygen from a tank, or if used with air, the air pump(s) need to be placed inside sufficiently small hole filter bag(s) (ex,. 1 micron):


Aquatic Eco-Systems Air Diffusers, Point Four MicroBubble Diffusers, 'Ultra-Fine Pore':
(greatest bubble uniformity of size, and smallest bubble size of all listed diffusers)

• bubble size = 100-500 micron (0.1-0.5 mm)
• clean with muratic acid
• http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcatego...re?green=f0a74bfd-4e59-4054-9b1a-05020483baa3

Aquatic Eco-Systems Air Diffusers, 'Flat Ceramic' (very fine pore):

• bubble size = 100-500 micron (0.1-0.5 mm)
• clean with muratic acid
• http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/4247/Aquatic-Eco-Systems-Air-Diffusers-Flat-Ceramic

Sweetwater (fine pore):

• bubble size = 500-2,000 micron (0.5-2 mm)
• clean with muratic acid
• http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2459/Sweetwater-Fine-Pore-Diffusers

FWIW, below is a similar setup to what I am going to test. I only plan to test using pure O2 if I cannot keep DO in ideal range at warmer water temps of ~75-77'F (re biopoincs). Ideal DO for plants is just above saturation point of water, ex., 8.5-9 ppm at 75'F; saturation at that temp is ~8.4 ppm. Over 9-10 ppm offers little/no benefit and even higher DO can inhibit plants.

• I want to set the tank up so it's automated via. DO sensor at plant roots connected to a controller (a' la bottled Co2). There is danger to bringing a O2 tank indoors though ... I may put a big tank outside and pipe in the O2.
• http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2209/Fish-Flo2-Oxygenation-Systems
• 
• 

 

[spurr]

Two good places for aeration supplies:

AqucaticEco: http://www.aquaticeco.com

Keep Alive: http://www.keepalive.net

 

[spurr]

Oh yea,

I plan to use net pots with GrowStones and/or calcined diatomaceous earth (from Napa, part #8822); I have to run some tests ... suggestions? I plan to set the net pots into the holes, the holes will be slightly smaller in diameter than the top of the net pot. The net pots will be held in place with something I have yet to decide upon ... suggestions?

The Growstones I will use, I think will be the soil type, as the 'stones' are smaller at ~0.5-0.75" IIRC; the hydro 'stones' are about and >1" IIRC. But I am unsure, I may use the hydro size stones ...

I will also place air diffusers in the tray, at the roots, if DO isn't high enough at the roots (or I'll increase flow rate).

This is the first time I have used water culture in a long time, and before this I only used ebb/flow a few times (with my grows; I helped with friend's hydro grows). I hope I don't mess up too badly!

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, you know i'll be watching! good luck! d9

 

[spurr]

The most expensive thing I need to buy is a DO2 meter, I was thinking Ebay, but I'm worried about buying a damaged/inaccurate meter. I think I will buy the meter next week, or in two weeks.

The first run with my system I will be using the inorganic fertilizer mix I posted in another thread, the "starter solution", using Peter's Professional Hydro-Sol as a base (making stock solutions A, B and C). In the refill tank I will use a "refill solution", about 1/3 strength of the starter solution (with a bit less Ca and B because they are taken up the slowest from the water), but I will adjust after tracking and graphing EC and pH with HydroBuddy. I was able to compute ideal fertilizers solutions using Hydrobuddy

I may lower the copper (Cu) ppm of my starter solution(s), if I use copper piping/coil to cool the reservoir ...

 

[Groseph]

Hey,

Good stuff.

Are you familiar with Alita Silicone Diffuser hose? Its amazing stuff and impossible to clog, never really needing cleaned.

EDIT - I just read another thread and saw that this tubing was already mentioned to you in another discussion.

Looking forward to more...

 

[thefatman]

I would be quite interested in your DO readings at high temps in the reservoir versus at the outlet of the air lift tube(s). Even how much the DO will be increased at the air lift(s) exit(s) at temps in the 72 to 76 degree F range would be useful data as lift tubes are more efficient then electric pumps when it comes to moving a waters mass as long as high pressures are not expected but instead just large volumes of water. Airlift pumps are used a lot in aquaculture for reasons of increasing circulation and increasing DO through increased water surface turbulence and is becoming much more commonly used for water mass movement in large aquariums. I have never seen any posted data about how much of an increase there is in DO at the tubes exits versus at the tubes entrance. Earlier this summer or late spring I sold 4 DO meters on eBay. If you have a choice I would suggest a galvanic DO meter over a polarographic meter. Response time is quicker for a galvanic meter and it does not have to be precharged as do the polarographic type meters. LDO's are nice but still a design new enough so as to be quite expensive in comparison to the other much more common types. An LDO meters probe is also huge in comparison to a polarographic or galvanic DO meter. The important thing to consider when buying a polarographic or galvanic meter is whethe ror not the seller is including the probe as well as membranes for the probes. The meter is the cheap part of the out fit. New probes are more expensive then a used meter and membrane and electrolyte costs for the probes are ridiculously expensive.

 

[Scrogerman]

Great stuff Spurr, very cool design, the airlift idea looks solid(thats a new one on me btw), the soil rocks look good too. glad you posted this! kk+

 

[rocket high]

sound's a bit too loud for my grow room ...but an amazing concept none the less.

 

[Microbeman]

Hey Spurr; I could not help but notice you are talking airlifts and using a compost tea brewer as a resevoir. I've actually worked on plans for this to be used in a college research program in WA. (based on my patented design) I have not heard recently from the student whether he got it up and running. For a simple airlift design see
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4590208#post4590208 Post #235 Of course this can be simplified even more but it is much simpler than the links to the videos you provided. There is no need to run so much airline and in my opinion the vortex serves no special purpose. So long as you have employed the airlift which provides up to a ten fold increase in the dissolved oxygen (DO2) capacity of your pump and have a good flow of water in and out so as to mix well you are good to go. I've posted a PDF in one of those CT threads which illustrates the math behind the increase in DO2.

On the diffusers, as you know I recommend the glass bonded diffusers on my webpage. They do produce an excellent DO2 result. The only drawback is having to use muriatic acid to clean them, which is why we switched to getting thin gauge PVC machine slotted to make our own diffusers which can be cleaned with water and a brush. One can try making their own slotted PVC diffusers but we found the narrowest we could get the slots was close to 900 microns with the thinnest hack saw blade available. The machined slots are 254 microns. I tried one of the micro-hole PVC diffusers from Aquatic-eco but thought it sucked. Have you tried one?

The hydropnic system I designed uses 3 to 4 inch PVC sewer pipe on angle or vertical [filled with media - clay pellets; pea gravel, etc.] with evenly spaced Wyes (or cleanouts) into which plantlings are planted. The water/tea flows into the open top of the pipe. This provides (IMO) the greatest amount of O2 delivered to root systems. One can configure these pipes in whatever layout best uses the light. (e.g. a circle for vertically hung lights) or short pipes in a row for greenhouse. The advantage that your table has over the pipes is the height which the resevoir is kept at. Using the pipes, the top of the resevoir would need to be approximately the height of the tops of the pipes.

 

[Microbeman]

Oh. I forgot; on DO2 meters, don't just get one if you are researching. They can be finicky pieces of s*t so always check with two 'different' (brand) meters.

 

[Microbeman]

Here is an airlift working on draw alone; that is there is no entry port as in a cone bottom tank. I'm assuming this is what you might consider to reduce the possibility of leaks. Plus it is cheap and easily replaced if you need to remove the operating unit for cleaning or repair. http://microbeorganics.com/demo12009.wmv

 

[spurr]

I would be quite interested in your DO readings at high temps in the reservoir versus at the outlet of the air lift tube(s). Even how much the DO will be increased at the air lift(s) exit(s) at temps in the 72 to 76 degree F range would be useful data as lift tubes are more efficient then electric pumps when it comes to moving a waters mass as long as high pressures are not expected but instead just large volumes of water.

I'll be sure to post the data I collect.

Airlift pumps are used a lot in aquaculture for reasons of increasing circulation and increasing DO through increased water surface turbulence and is becoming much more commonly used for water mass movement in large aquariums. I have never seen any posted data about how much of an increase there is in DO at the tubes exits versus at the tubes entrance.

Interesting, I'll try to gather data. I would like to calculate total volume of air pumped between testing at entrance and exit.

You may want to contact MicrobeMan, he has more expertise on these topics (re DO, airflits, etc.) than anyone I know. He has been testing various designs for systems like aerated compost tea brewers, with DO2 meters, for years. He may have data you could use, already. I tend to rely on him for DO data and information, from his extensive real world testing, until I can start testing myself. CTGuy is also someone who has done a lot of testing with DO2 meters.

Earlier this summer or late spring I sold 4 DO meters on eBay. If you have a choice I would suggest a galvanic DO meter over a polarographic meter. Response time is quicker for a galvanic meter and it does not have to be precharged as do the polarographic type meters. LDO's are nice but still a design new enough so as to be quite expensive in comparison to the other much more common types. An LDO meters probe is also huge in comparison to a polarographic or galvanic DO meter. The important thing to consider when buying a polarographic or galvanic meter is whethe ror not the seller is including the probe as well as membranes for the probes. The meter is the cheap part of the out fit. New probes are more expensive then a used meter and membrane and electrolyte costs for the probes are ridiculously expensive.

Great info, thanks.

 

[Microbeman]

BTW; Forgot to say Really fine idea!

 

[spurr]

Hey Spurr; I could not help but notice you are talking airlifts and using a compost tea brewer as a resevoir.

MM! Great, I'm glad you stopped by. I was going to ask for your input.

I've actually worked on plans for this to be used in a college research program in WA. (based on my patented design) I have not heard recently from the student whether he got it up and running.

I do recall you mentioning working on a hydro-ACT system, that in fact is what spurred me to design this system using well established and proven principals of Deep Flow Technique (water culture system for research and real-world use) and aerated compost tea brewers, as well as aquaponics (aka biopoincs).

Can you contact the student and inquire about the progress/status of the project? I would be very interested to learn what he has to write, ex., his setbacks and fixes, etc.

For a simple airlift design see
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4590208#post4590208 Post #235 Of course this can be simplified even more but it is much simpler than the links to the videos you provided. There is no need to run so much airline and in my opinion the vortex serves no special purpose.

Thanks, I'll check out the link.

Re: youtube videos: I only provided them so people can see an airlift in action. I agree the vortex isn't needed, and most people think it changes water molecule 'structure' (I think that's a highly dubious claim).

The fact the videos are of aerated compost tea brewers is more of a coincidence, they were the best examples I could find of videos explaining how an airlift functions.

So long as you have employed the airlift which provides up to a ten fold increase in the dissolved oxygen (DO2) capacity of your pump and have a good flow of water in and out so as to mix well you are good to go. I've posted a PDF in one of those CT threads which illustrates the math behind the increase in DO2.

I will try to find it, unless you could post it here? Do you recall the thread title?

On this topic, you may like to check out a recent thread in this sub-forum, it's about surface vs. sub-surface aeration of water. In the cannabis world there is an oft' made claim that sub-surface aeration from bubbles isn't possible, or isn't efficient enough to make a 'worthwhile' increase in DO:
(in the thread I posted some study references and other info, along with ways to increase DO aside from air diffusers; your input is very welcome in the following thread)

• "DWC: Are airstones really an effective way to increase DO?"
• https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=218221

On the diffusers, as you know I recommend the glass bonded diffusers on my webpage. They do produce an excellent DO2 result. The only drawback is having to use muriatic acid to clean them, which is why we switched to getting thin gauge PVC machine slotted to make our own diffusers which can be cleaned with water and a brush. One can try making their own slotted PVC diffusers but we found the narrowest we could get the slots was close to 900 microns with the thinnest hack saw blade available. The machined slots are 254 microns. I tried one of the micro-hole PVC diffusers from Aquatic-eco but thought it sucked. Have you tried one?

Nope, I was hoping you had input on them. The other hose posted in this thread looks interesting, but I'm unsure of bubble size and pore size. The claim is made it needs no cleaning, but I doubt that holds true for use with aerated compost tea brewer systems. have you tried that Alita Silicone Diffuser hose?

The hydropnic system I designed uses 3 to 4 inch PVC sewer pipe on angle or vertical [filled with media - clay pellets; pea gravel, etc.] with evenly spaced Wyes (or cleanouts) into which plantlings are planted. The water/tea flows into the open top of the pipe. This provides (IMO) the greatest amount of O2 delivered to root systems. One can configure these pipes in whatever layout best uses the light. (e.g. a circle for vertically hung lights) or short pipes in a row for greenhouse.

Wow, very ingenious, I hadn't thought about that.

The advantage that your table has over the pipes is the height which the resevoir is kept at. Using the pipes, the top of the resevoir would need to be approximately the height of the tops of the pipes.

Interesting, and yup I see your point. For an indoor grow, which is often height restricted to ~7-8' (in most homes), that could be an issue if using HID lighting.

In the screenshots I posted, I didn't add a foot or foot and a half space between the top tray and reservoir. That space would be needed for biopoincs system(s) to add and attend to the fish, as well as to provide light for the fish (with or without ACT at the same time).

P.S. any input you have is very welcome, ex., your thoughts about running a continual large scale hydro-ACT hybrid system in terms of inputs, population flux, pH, etc.

 

[spurr]

Oh. I forgot; on DO2 meters, don't just get one if you are researching. They can be finicky pieces of s*t so always check with two 'different' (brand) meters.

Damn, and I can't afford to spend ~$600-900 right now, I can only (barely) afford one at this time, along with everything lelse I need to buy for this system (incl. a new EC meter, etc.). If you had to use only one DO2 meter, and price was a factor, what brand and model would you suggested? Options for used meters?


@ thefatman,

Same question for you, if you had to use only one DO2 meter, and price was a factor, what brand and model would you suggested?

 

[spurr]

@ MM,

One topic I am especially hoping to get your input, is that of air pumps needed (size and number) to reach my DO goal of at least 8 ppm. Will one Helina 9730 suffice if I used a manifold and a few air diffusers (hose and/or 'stone' style) in the reservoir and tray? (I think I'll need at least one more air pump for DO, hopefully pulling double duty running the airlift).

• water volume for reservoir = ~5.4 feet^3 and ~40 gallons
• water volume for tray = ~5 feet^3 and ~72-74 gallons (I didn't include angle of inline in my calculations, it seems unnecessary as I don't need level of accuracy)

P.S. I am considering adding a slight decline to the reservoir, maybe 0.5 or 1 degree angle of decline, with the airlift at the 'low' end of the reservoir. Thoughts?

 

[spurr]

So long as you have employed the airlift which provides up to a ten fold increase in the dissolved oxygen (DO2) capacity of your pump and have a good flow of water in and out so as to mix well you are good to go.

I am thinking about using two airlifts (water inlets into the tray) and two water drains (water outlets from the tray); I think I will copy your setup in terms of PVC size and plumbing.

I am also thinking about hooking up the air pump(s) to some type of variable electricity controller (at adjust output of air pump(s); ex., fan speed controller). Thereby I hope to better control (increase or decrease) water flow rate and agitation/recirculation of tray water, as well as to DO.

 

[spurr]

Great stuff Spurr, very cool design, the airlift idea looks solid(thats a new one on me btw), the soil rocks look good too. glad you posted this! kk+

Thanks, I'm glad you found it useful. I didn't do anything 'new', per se, I just mixed a couple of existing methods into a Frankenstein

sound's a bit too loud for my grow room ...but an amazing concept none the less.

Get some ear plugs and build one! (kidding, thanks for the props)

BTW; Forgot to say Really fine idea!

Thanks, however, I have to admit you're the one who sparked the idea in my brain about hydro-airlift (suitable for microbes).