Foliar application of calcium carbonate

[CascadeFarmer]

There was thread elsewhere at IC that got binned because of fighting but one subject covered caught my attention. A few years back I played with the idea of foliar applications of micronized calcium carbonate mainly for treatment of Powdery Mildew but also wondered about CO2 liberation. Heard a story where a squash farmer, cucurbits seem very prone, successfully treated his crop with foliar CaCO3. I was told by the consultant who dealt with the guy that the particles needed to be less than 5 microns to ensure entry into the stomata. I thought the stomata might just get plugged up so found material from Reverte that was 1 micron.

In looking at the chart of particle size you can see there's a decent amount of particles over the Statistic Mean Diameter. I could not find the chart for the 1 micron samples I received but you get the idea (see chart below).

In looking at things more I came across Nano Precipitated Calcium Carbonate from Specialty Minerals. They start with lime and end up bubbling CO2 through the solution to 'synthesize' CaCO3. The sample I got was .06 microns or 60 nanometers and the particle size does not vary much with NPCC. I thought the smaller the better.

Then I saw CalCarb from Xtreme Gardening and they claim...

Calcium Carbonate Foliar Spray is Xtreme Gardening’s revolutionary calcium carbonate foliar spray which increases CO2 levels from 0.03 vol% (atmospheric level) to 0.1 vol% – the optimal level desired by plants. CalCarb utilizes a new form of nanotechnology which allows for topical application, which is applied just twice a month. Often, viewed initially with skepticism and deemed the most unbelievable” of all the products in the Xtreme Gardening Line, CalCarb delivers what no other product can – natural, time-released CO2,without the use of tanks and propane/natural gas burners.

They talk about 'a new form of nanotechnology' and wondering if they are simply using NPCC which actually has been around for decades. They go into the CO2 thing.

Here they talk about rapid conversion and don't know if this is happening on the leaf surface, don't see how, or if it's going on once it enters the stomata.

CALCARB is a unique form of a simple and very common compound that contains both calcium and carbon. Calcium carbonate is used in agriculture throughout most of the world to adjust soil pH levels. CALCARB is an unusual form of calcium carbonate that is highly unstable, converting to calcium oxide and carbon dioxide rapidly when applied to foliage.

They talk about an unstable form of CaCO3 and wondering if it's because of the particle size, Specialty does make material up to 150 nanometers, or if it's really a different form. I kind of doubt that but...

PCC stands for Precipitated Calcium Carbonate—also known as purified, refined or synthetic calcium carbonate. It has the same chemical formula as other types of calcium carbonate, such as limestone, marble and chalk: CaCO3. The calcium, carbon and oxygen atoms can arrange themselves in three different ways, to form three different calcium carbonate minerals. The most common arrangement for both precipitated and ground calcium carbonates is the hexagonal form known as calcite. A number of different calcite crystal forms are possible: scalenohedral, rhombohedral and prismatic. Less common is aragonite, which has a discrete or clustered needle orthorhombic crystal structure. Rare and generally unstable is the vaterite calcium carbonate mineral.

When they talk about nano stuff only thing I'm familiar with is the NPCC material. Maybe it's the particle size that makes NPCC, if indeed that's what Xtreme is using, effective?

A bit more about vaterite...

Vaterite (CaCO3) is a mineral, a polymorph of calcium carbonate. It was named after the German mineralogist Heinrich Vater. It is also known as mu-calcium carbonate (μ-CaCO3) and has a JCPDS number of 13-192. Vaterite, like aragonite, is a metastable phase of calcium carbonate at ambient conditions at the surface of the earth. As it is less stable than either calcite or aragonite, vaterite has a higher solubility than either of these phases. Therefore, once vaterite is exposed to water, it converts to calcite (at low temperature) or aragonite (at high temperature: ~60°C). However, vaterite does occur naturally in mineral springs, organic tissue, gallstones, and urinary calculi. In those circumstances, some impurities (metal ions or organic matter) may stabilize the vaterite and prevent its transformation into calcite or aragonite. Vaterite is usually colorless, its shape is spherical, and its diameter is small, ranging from 0.05 to 5 μm. Vaterite can be produced as the first mineral deposits repairing natural or experimentally induced shell damage in some aragonite-shelled molluscs (e.g., gastropods). Subsequent shell deposition occurs as aragonite.

 

[spurr]

There was thread elsewhere at IC that got binned because of fighting but one subject covered caught my attention.

I'm not sure if you saw my post to you, before the thread was binned. In case you didn't I'll write again, what I wrote.

A few years back I played with the idea of foliar applications of micronized calcium carbonate mainly for treatment of Powdery Mildew but also wondered about CO2 liberation. Heard a story where a squash farmer, cucurbits seem very prone, successfully treated his crop with foliar CaCO3. I was told by the consultant who dealt with the guy that the particles needed to be less than 5 microns to ensure entry into the stomata. I thought the stomata might just get plugged up so found material from Reverte that was 1 micron.

Stomata are not naturally used for liquid or solute transport, only for gasses. Plant don't 'take up' foliar applied substances via. stomata, they take up said substances (as solutes) through leaf cuticle and cell membrane (etc.).

One of the best (and only) ways to 'make' stomata accept liquid and solutes is using very powerful adjuvants, such as "organosilicate" based. They reduce water tension so far, the water can enter stomata; but that is only used for herbicides. Other options that we shouldn't use, in terms of foliar spray adjuvants, are MSO (Methylated Seed Oil) and COC (Crop Oil Concentrate); both weaken the leaf cuticle layer, thus increasing permeation of solutes into leaf, they are mainly used for pesticides and fungicides.

For solutes, ex., foliar fertilizes (inorganic and organic; ex., amino acid for N) and organic substances, to enter leafs they must be small enough to pass into the leaf. And AFAIK, 0.06 micron is too large, but that is more of a guess than a fact.

I highly doubt spraying insoluble CaCO3 (no matter how small) will create Co2, or "liberate" Co2, or anything of the sort. I tried to find academic studies and/or info on this topic a while ago, but found nothing. IMO it's snake oil, with respect to increasing Co2, carbon fixation by plants.

In looking at the chart of particle size you can see there's a decent amount of particles over the Statistic Mean Diameter. I could not find the chart for the 1 micron samples I received but you get the idea (see chart below).

In looking at things more I came across Nano Precipitated Calcium Carbonate from Specialty Minerals. They start with lime and end up bubbling CO2 through the solution to 'synthesize' CaCO3. The sample I got was .06 microns or 60 nanometers and the particle size does not vary much with NPCC. I thought the smaller the better.

Then I saw CalCarb from Xtreme Gardening and they claim...

Calcium Carbonate Foliar Spray is Xtreme Gardening’s revolutionary calcium carbonate foliar spray which increases CO2 levels from 0.03 vol% (atmospheric level) to 0.1 vol% – the optimal level desired by plants. CalCarb utilizes a new form of nanotechnology which allows for topical application, which is applied just twice a month. Often, viewed initially with skepticism and deemed the most unbelievable” of all the products in the Xtreme Gardening Line, CalCarb delivers what no other product can – natural, time-released CO2,without the use of tanks and propane/natural gas burners.

They talk about 'a new form of nanotechnology' and wondering if they are simply using NPCC which actually has been around for decades. They go into the CO2 thing.

Here they talk about rapid conversion and don't know if this is happening on the leaf surface, don't see how, or if it's going on once it enters the stomata.

CALCARB is a unique form of a simple and very common compound that contains both calcium and carbon. Calcium carbonate is used in agriculture throughout most of the world to adjust soil pH levels. CALCARB is an unusual form of calcium carbonate that is highly unstable, converting to calcium oxide and carbon dioxide rapidly when applied to foliage.

They only way I can think of, is by mineralization by phyllosphere biota. I for one call that claim a big ol' lie, but I will hold out to see if there can be found any scientific basis for claims made.

They talk about an unstable form of CaCO3 and wondering if it's because of the particle size, Specialty does make material up to 150 nanometers, or if it's really a different form. I kind of doubt that but...

I think they are talking about genuine snake oil (with respect to boosting Co2 to 1,000 ppm with bi-monthly application) ... get it while it lasts!

 

[CascadeFarmer]

Thx...very helpful.

Wouldn't addition of fulvic acid help with absorption?

 

[spurr]

It can with ions (like Ca), but I'm not sure about CaCO3, I doubt it.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

It can with ions (like Ca), but I'm not sure about CaCO3, I doubt it.

Was gonna edit my post. Actually not thinking about using CaCO3 as a foliar anymore just wondering if it would help in this instance. Kind of had a hard time believing foliar applications of CaCO3 had much value. Seems not. Don't know what the story is with that cucurbit farmer. He sprayed Sea Crop and nothing. Then he sprayed Sea Crop and micronized CaCO3 and not only did it eliminate his PM for the season but also killed some vine borers, or something like that, within 24 hours.

They only way I can think of, is by mineralization by phyllosphere biota.

Never thought of that. I know bacteria like Ca...and trace minerals...from what I understand.

 

[cyat]

Hey cascade farmer, glad to see you posting this!
first impressions of this stuff : it practically melts into the water sprays extremely smooth, it does leave a residue though. they say to rinse it off after a couple days.
I noticed extreme new light green growth on my stunted silverdogs , overnight. thats about it for now. oh, it goes a long way. 1tbls per gal ,that will last me 1.5 months spraying every 2 weeks.

 

[JOJO420]

I was gifted the extreme gardening line at my local shop last week. I was going to foliar spray my squash and zucchini's, maybe even the peppers and tomatoes with this "snake oil".. I was also considering foliar spraying the newly rooted cannabis clones I have also , UNTIL I read this thread. Now I see it is unnecessary and may actually be a waste of time.
I am thinking of spraying the coco coir itself, and not the plant. My reasoning is that the beneficial's and the root zone might be a better application point. The CalCarb will benefit the bacteria and the root zone will have added calcium.I wont have to rinse my plants or worry about it damping fruits and flowers. Plus I don't have to rinse off the residue.
I am sure glad I found this thread

 

[CascadeFarmer]

I am thinking of spraying the coco coir itself, and not the plant. My reasoning is that the beneficial's and the root zone might be a better application point. The CalCarb will benefit the bacteria and the root zone will have added calcium.

Well if nano size like I mentioned, 60-150 nanometers then the CalCarb would get processed pretty frikkin quick.

it practically melts into the water

That's what I would expect with nano sized particles.

I was going to foliar spray my squash and zucchini's, maybe even the peppers and tomatoes with this "snake oil".. I was also considering foliar spraying the newly rooted cannabis clones I have also , UNTIL I read this thread.

Probably no harm in trying it alone on a few plants as a control to see if any difference.

 

[ShroomDr]

Just thought id add this product info here. Most calmags use Calcium Nitrate, this product uses the aforementioned Calcium Carbonate.

General Organics CaMg+ (0-0-0) Mg1% Ca5%
1120g/946mL = 1.18393g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 0
P 0
K 0
Mg 31
Ca 156
Derived from: Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Molasses.

Thoughts on foliar applications?

FWIW my spray bottle of 'tomato blossom end rot fixer/prevent-er' uses Calcium Chloride.

 

[cyat]

31% calcium on the label

 

[zymos]

How would the carbonate supposedly be reduced to CO2 anyway...?

 

[Ichabod Crane]

ShroomDr Both of those dissolve in acid and give off CO2. I suspect they are using HCL to make the Ca and Mg soluble. If they are they maybe absorbed easier by the plant. Just a guess though.

 

[TheHobbit]

How would the carbonate supposedly be reduced to CO2 anyway...?

Same stuff different company, read whats contained at the link below.

http://www.lithovit.co.nz/science.html

 

[zymos]

Sounds like snake oil to me- "tribodynamic activation"?

During the hightech milling process an extremely high mechanical energy is put into the system. Since energy is never destroyed nor created new, but only transformed from one form to another, a small part of the mechanical energy is transformed to heat due to fraction. Most of energy, however, is transformed to activation energy of the milled particles. Due to their collision with extreme high speed their lettuce is deformed, not only at the surface layers, but also at the layers underneath. Furthermore, and that is the most important form of the tribodynamic activation of the particles, the electric charge within the particle becomes polarized in that the negative charge is shifted to the particle surface, while the positive one remains more or less at the center. (by Prof. Dr. Abdel-Latif Bilal)

 

[TheHobbit]

Sounds like snake oil to me- "tribodynamic activation"?

During the hightech milling process an extremely high mechanical energy is put into the system. Since energy is never destroyed nor created new, but only transformed from one form to another, a small part of the mechanical energy is transformed to heat due to fraction. Most of energy, however, is transformed to activation energy of the milled particles. Due to their collision with extreme high speed their lettuce is deformed, not only at the surface layers, but also at the layers underneath. Furthermore, and that is the most important form of the tribodynamic activation of the particles, the electric charge within the particle becomes polarized in that the negative charge is shifted to the particle surface, while the positive one remains more or less at the center. (by Prof. Dr. Abdel-Latif Bilal)

Not really!

All they are describing is the process they use to make vaterite which is the most unstable form of calcium carbonate which easily dissolves in water. It can only be formed when CaCO3 is milled to between .5um - 5um (microns).

 

[Nondual]

Not really!

All they are describing is the process they use to make vaterite which is the most unstable form of calcium carbonate which easily dissolves in water. It can only be formed when CaCO3 is milled to between .5um - 5um (microns).

There are many companies that sell micronized calcium carbonate down to that level. The material is readily available and inexpensive. For sure more expensive than other forms due to the cost of micronization but not much more.

 

[spiritual g]

just use rain water

 

[homebrew420]

The extreme gardening products I have used are solid. I do have some of this CalCarb just haven't used it. Was always a bit skeptical about this one though.
Not a single person here though has used it? It is a fairly cheap product.
The Azos is the real deal. Stuff is amazing

Peace

 

[Hash Man]

Hey man the calcarb from extreme left a white residue all over my plants that couldnt even be wiped off with a wet finger. I like their azos and mycos, but the calcarb needs work. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[homebrew420]

Hashman I have read the same thing, however this was not noticed to have any negative effects. I should use this stuff just to see. I have some. I just don't do a whole lot of spraying unless necessary.

Peace