G
Guest 88950
you are the one with racist / denier in his sig.
who else is throwing out those words.
only you bro
and i bet you depend on immigrant labor to keep cost low and to avoid getting any govt dole outs.
The Future of Energy
- Thread starter SpasticGramps
- Start date
you are the one with racist / denier in his sig.
who else is throwing out those words.
only you bro
and i bet you depend on immigrant labor to keep cost low and to avoid getting any govt dole outs.
Arguing with someone like grapeman is like trying to get Yummybud laid......you can try as hard as you like, but it will never go anywhere.
When someone's mind is already made up about things(regardless of reality), a logical debate counts for as much festering dogshit.
When someone's mind is already made up about things(regardless of reality), a logical debate counts for as much festering dogshit.
IMO, we've got some logic and some politicizing.
Grape has a point. Taxes and subsidies have different meanings. However, subsidy has a broad scope that can include taxes. Or in this case, not.
But the fact that many of these corporations pay no taxes, receive subsidies and in some cases receive refunds makes the word game a bit moot.
There's only so many ways to turn economics on it's ear. Spin and pejoratives are but two. Pejorative is the loser's first tactic in introductory debate. And 21st-century spin has been honed to fine art.
Grape has a point. Taxes and subsidies have different meanings. However, subsidy has a broad scope that can include taxes. Or in this case, not.
But the fact that many of these corporations pay no taxes, receive subsidies and in some cases receive refunds makes the word game a bit moot.
There's only so many ways to turn economics on it's ear. Spin and pejoratives are but two. Pejorative is the loser's first tactic in introductory debate. And 21st-century spin has been honed to fine art.
Well, yes this is a problem. In my opinion it stems from the lack of safety measures; something that should go hand in hand with nuclear power.
I do agree that this problem, and its cause, are not acceptable.
The US department of energy contracted Bechtel for a new nuclear reactor to be used on the new super carriers.
And Westinghouse has already started construction of four of the new ap1000 reactors in China and 14 in US.
What does the cold do to the reactors? Freeze the river?
A respectable collection of points alkalien. My responses are just that, responses and thoughts. I'm going to go think and reflect on this discussion and let it soak in.
Hey Frozen,
i gave it a long thought, your points are absolutly valid!
As for the newly build reactors, I was talking about those being build at the moment and that's 0 for the US. Quite some time since the last one was build too.
The freezing rivers are the problem yes. One should think that they did take that into consideration upon planning one...
My main point in this post should be that I doubt humans are able to drive a reaktor safely. All major desasters have been caused by people not taking security serious enough. And I don't think they will ever do. All accidents happened because some circumstances occured that had not been predicted. But you can only take events into consideration you predicted...
Chernobyl or Tschernobyl blew up because they didn't want to postpone a test although the reactor did not behave like it should have. They didn't want to be critized by their superiours and they didn't want to loose money.
Three Miles Island, I count that as a Super GAU because nobody knows why the core did not break the bottom of the containment, was almost blown up because somebody did not pay attention working on a valve. When the shit hit the fan, nobody knew the valve wasn't in the state it should had been.
Finally Fukushima should have been made more though withstanding earthquakes. It failed when the earthquake took place. The wave was just inconvenient for the repair. Earthquakes that strong are known from the history of that area but building reactors strong enough is expensives so they accepted the risk. I have to add, the faked the inspection reports on those plants as well.
My conclusion is drastic and sad but I fear that allways when security issues meet people who want to make money they'll decide to make more money and take the risk. And as long as the owners keep giving as much money to political parties as they do, there will be no strict policies to enforce security.
A small look at german reactors seems to proof my point. None of our reactors can withstand the crash of an airplane. I allways though well, how big is the chance of that happening? But it can happen, especially since they like to place the plants near to airports and that's where most planes crash.
Would you bet your life on everybody in an reactor doing the right thing? Would you bet your life on nothing unforseen happening to an reactor? Well that's what you do and you not only bet your life, you bet those of all your sibblings as well....
I read that GE nixed recommendations by their three-member panel over the Fukashima reactors design. Wet containment vessels are safer than dry but costs more money. All three panel members resigned in 1967, protesting the prototype.
I also read that the major problem was the tsunami itself. The power supplies for the cooling systems were located in the basements of the reactor buildings. The backup generators were 60s technology and were submerged in seawater.
I read that Germany plans to nix their nuclear program altogether. To do this they'll have to rely on alternatives even more. But Germany got us to the moon. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Germany leads the green-energy revolution.
I also read that the major problem was the tsunami itself. The power supplies for the cooling systems were located in the basements of the reactor buildings. The backup generators were 60s technology and were submerged in seawater.
I read that Germany plans to nix their nuclear program altogether. To do this they'll have to rely on alternatives even more. But Germany got us to the moon. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Germany leads the green-energy revolution.
Yes, that's what I wanted to say, when it comes to decide whether money or security are more important, they allways go for the money...
You are right about Fukushima as far as I know. The cooling for the reactor failed when it shut down after the earthquake and the diesels didn't come up, they then where submerged by the wave which made it harder to restart them. But the core started melting before the wave hit the plant.
Last friday the law was passed in Germany, no more nuclear power for us. The 7 oldest and one notorious for failing reactors have been shut down directly after Fukushima, they will not come up again. The remaining 9 willbe shut down step by step within the next 10 years.
Germany is in the position to do this, we produce a peak of 120GW while consuming only 80GW peak. The nuclear power plants delivered 20GW. We can afford to loose them today. But yes, you are right, we will have to increase our efforts to push renewable energies. It is a bet however, we decided that in the future renewable energies will be the fastest growing economical sector and the hope is that everybody who wants to invest in those will take a look at how we did it and then buy german technology.
I'm pretty sure we will win this one.
You are right about Fukushima as far as I know. The cooling for the reactor failed when it shut down after the earthquake and the diesels didn't come up, they then where submerged by the wave which made it harder to restart them. But the core started melting before the wave hit the plant.
Last friday the law was passed in Germany, no more nuclear power for us. The 7 oldest and one notorious for failing reactors have been shut down directly after Fukushima, they will not come up again. The remaining 9 willbe shut down step by step within the next 10 years.
Germany is in the position to do this, we produce a peak of 120GW while consuming only 80GW peak. The nuclear power plants delivered 20GW. We can afford to loose them today. But yes, you are right, we will have to increase our efforts to push renewable energies. It is a bet however, we decided that in the future renewable energies will be the fastest growing economical sector and the hope is that everybody who wants to invest in those will take a look at how we did it and then buy german technology.
I'm pretty sure we will win this one.
I'm rooting for you guys! It's too bad that American energy executives have corrupted the politicization of alternatives to the point that half the country thinks green energy is a ploy, not a solution.
We have educated pundits and lawmakers who refuse to believe the scientific community. IMHO, they're not that dumb, they're just compromised by think-tank contributions and political campaign donations. These pundits and lawmakers howl at deficits and claim ambitions to reign in federal government.
But these same folks brought us the war on terror. Federal government won't be any smaller, it'll be more police-state.
We have educated pundits and lawmakers who refuse to believe the scientific community. IMHO, they're not that dumb, they're just compromised by think-tank contributions and political campaign donations. These pundits and lawmakers howl at deficits and claim ambitions to reign in federal government.
But these same folks brought us the war on terror. Federal government won't be any smaller, it'll be more police-state.
Sadly enough we have the same problems over here. Around 2000 a law was made that we ged rid of the nuclear power, last year the companies influence was big enough to get a longer time they may run their power plants. They gained an average of 12 years but then the extremly string anty nuclear power movement kicked in with almost a million people protesting on the streets. We fought for the cause of shutting them down. After Fukushima the pressure from the people got even stronger and we were able to force them to pass this new bill. If it hadn't been for those demonstration we wouldn't have the law.
I got the feeling that while I was a child and a teen I allways was stunned at the superiour industry in the states. Everybody wanted to go there for the chances the states offered. We thought we wouldn't ever be able to compete. Sure we used to be the country exporting most goods back then. But hight tech allway was from the US. Now I feel you lost your position of beeing the leaders and I can't point at the things that makes me feel that way but when I see companies like BMW or Daimler Benz moving their production to the US for cheaper labor I'm afraid it's not gonna be better soon...
Just an outsiders point of view, but seems to meet your point?
I got the feeling that while I was a child and a teen I allways was stunned at the superiour industry in the states. Everybody wanted to go there for the chances the states offered. We thought we wouldn't ever be able to compete. Sure we used to be the country exporting most goods back then. But hight tech allway was from the US. Now I feel you lost your position of beeing the leaders and I can't point at the things that makes me feel that way but when I see companies like BMW or Daimler Benz moving their production to the US for cheaper labor I'm afraid it's not gonna be better soon...
Just an outsiders point of view, but seems to meet your point?
you could apply that to EVERY poster in these type of threads not just GM.
both sides are dogmatic and full of "dogshit"
lmao why so pejorative as to compare one with fecal matter?
ohhh your still introductory...
got it
labor aint cheap with the UAW and legacy costs
more likely they left because of
33% corp
42% individual income
19% VAT
Can't say I disagree, alkalien.
I'm glad we still have countries' citizenry actively affecting legislation. America really had to fuck up in the 1960s to get protests rivaling the ones you speak of. We used to get the water hose and tear gas but now we're pacified by big screen TVs from China and Snookie from NJ.
American problems transcend old money lobbies in Washington. Our electorate is so polluted by politicization, 50% are diametrically opposed to progress. Our electorate isn't actually polarized on every issue but the richest executives have managed to make it appear as such.
Even though the 90s proved an economic tide that raised all boats, just the mention of tax increases for the top sends half the bottom in panic-mode, despite the fact that 3 decades of supply-side economics produces record income disparity.
I'm sure Europeans have their share of conservatives. IMO, Europeans better understand their economic interests and to a degree, you guys don't drink the political kool aid as much as Americans.
I'm glad we still have countries' citizenry actively affecting legislation. America really had to fuck up in the 1960s to get protests rivaling the ones you speak of. We used to get the water hose and tear gas but now we're pacified by big screen TVs from China and Snookie from NJ.
American problems transcend old money lobbies in Washington. Our electorate is so polluted by politicization, 50% are diametrically opposed to progress. Our electorate isn't actually polarized on every issue but the richest executives have managed to make it appear as such.
Even though the 90s proved an economic tide that raised all boats, just the mention of tax increases for the top sends half the bottom in panic-mode, despite the fact that 3 decades of supply-side economics produces record income disparity.
I'm sure Europeans have their share of conservatives. IMO, Europeans better understand their economic interests and to a degree, you guys don't drink the political kool aid as much as Americans.
A trained professional worker in Germany costs between 40 and 50 k€ a year, while working something around 200 days. In the US you can calculate 20 to 25 k€ for a guy who works 250 days. And of course, in the US you don't pay people who are ill so you guys show up for work, 5% off because ill vs. 8% over here. Plus the fact, over here you can't fire people if you don't have anything for them to do because of a shortage. Production ist way more flexible over at yours.
I'm far away from wantig to piss to piss you off. I just feel like you lost your hunger for beeing the best. You nowadays concentrate on fighting wars on terror, drugs or whatever loosing your own personal freedoms more and more every day. I'm really sorry about that and it's starting to become like that over here too. I allways looked up to the US and envied my relatives who moved there but this century you changed a lot...
This is part of what I'm talking about, alkalien. American union labor is a shell of it's former self yet some Americans believe unions are to blame for the poor economy. Despite that fact that union labor statistics say otherwise, not to mention the corporate sector's record liquidity.
These arguments often receive the idea that government gave all this money to business. This is just more oversimplification. With some folks, policy doesn't have to make economic sense, it has to ring an ideological bell.
So much in fact that a few at IC would rather take-on other members than debate the issues. Everybody has a voice and some use it to distract the message instead of delivering their own.
yeah lets follow Europe's economic example...
giving credit to the government for the economic boom in the '90s only works if you believe Al Gore invented the internet.
I'm not sure if I understood you correct. But in my point of view I don't think you can do it right or wrong. It's just the question of finding the right way for everyone or every country.
Germany was never the most advanced country in electronics or gernerals computer stuff. We just bought what came from the US, Japan or today China. We are pretty good at mechanical engineering, like cars and production maschines.
I think the problem for us at moment is the ridicolous role the big banks play. How can it be that german taxpayers hat to bailout german banks who bought bonds of US housing credits with billions and where did all this money go? How can it be that big banks by greek credits with like 30% interest well knowing that the risk is pretty high and then when the risk kicks in they can sell their faulty credits to the taxpayers?
I understand the war on the streets in Greece and other european countries! Even if they are as hard as in you picture! How can it be that I work all day and then have to bailout companies that make billions?!?
That is no european problem on the other hand...
I mentioned earlier that grape's posts would be more valuable (less the pejoratives.) Now I'm beginning to wonder.
No one buys crop insurance discoman. Not in my business. It doesn't pay.
And BTW, I'm for the elimination of any and all Ag subsidies. They skew the Ag market as badly as they do the energy market.
Last edited:
Another ignorant comment. As always, your assumptions show your stupidity.
It's the left/right paradigm that thwarts American progress. Europeans have more history to better understand economic swings. American economists have enough history and the education to substantially eschew supply-side economics. However, the top 1/10 of 1% has enough influence to affect the electorate so that any progress receives polar reaction.
America used to chase technology enough to rival, even lead competing nations. With trickle-down and the reform of banking regulations, we now chase profits.
There's hope for America so long as Wall Street doesn't pound Europe and the rest of the world into economic submission. Less than 100 years ago, Americans saw what (near) laissez fair does to the macro economy yet we'll watch Europe climb from the wreckage before we do.
lmao @ labor union statistics saying labor unions are beneficial.
ask a crook if he is a crook.
Alk: don't worry you wont piss me off. i don't get emotional over internet posters..
25k is the tip of the berg for a uaw worker. that is not even salary. leave out legacy costs and its still roughly 35k.
no your auto companies moved production here for cheap taxes.
if they were after cheap labor indo china would be the spot. or central america.
you are correct in that reserve banking is strangling the ENTIRE globe...
i just think you have been fed a load of crap about the wages for auto workers in this country.
our "poor" are pretty well off compared to alot of other countries.
30 hour work weeks,4 weeks paid vacation and retirement at 45 are luxuries we don't have but then again our collapse is slower than greece so there is that...
ask a crook if he is a crook.
Alk: don't worry you wont piss me off. i don't get emotional over internet posters..
25k is the tip of the berg for a uaw worker. that is not even salary. leave out legacy costs and its still roughly 35k.
no your auto companies moved production here for cheap taxes.
if they were after cheap labor indo china would be the spot. or central america.
you are correct in that reserve banking is strangling the ENTIRE globe...
i just think you have been fed a load of crap about the wages for auto workers in this country.
our "poor" are pretty well off compared to alot of other countries.
30 hour work weeks,4 weeks paid vacation and retirement at 45 are luxuries we don't have but then again our collapse is slower than greece so there is that...
Your bookends narrow between comments. The reference wasn't just insurance (a several hundred million dollar expenditure in a 20 billion dollar subsidy program.) But nice try, anyway.
I can agree that some regulation, while mitigating economic problems causes additional economic problems. Less than responsible regulations need to be reconsidered.
Ethanol (the low hanging fruit of irresponsible subsidies) was seen as a way to reduce air pollution and pay farmers for excess corn. But it costs more than it's worth and we don't always have corn surpluses to devote to ethanol. Wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Americans agree that ethanol subsidies should be ended.
Yet a single pundit in Washington sees ending irresponsible ethanol subsidies as a tax increase. Apply this reaction to every issue under the sun and we see enough politicization to dupe the public interest.
A third grader could vote their best economic interests but politicization will reach them before they cast the first vote. Some will consider facts and some will consider points of view. As long as the top income earners spin the politics of progress, we'll get less of it.
Last edited:
