Top, Middle or Bottom....

[laylow]

Going to share a cut/clone of my plant to another grower and he asked for it to be taken from the middle of the plant... when i asked why he said that the hormones were strongest in the new growth in the middle..

i thought no more about this untill today.. i took about 150 cuts from 1 plant stripped it bare all rooted but some were stronger than others clearly... was this due to where the cut were taken from the plant I.E. strongest being from the middle weakest from bottom and middle range from top?

interesting to see what people come back with

cheers

 

[GoozMan]

I'll add that when I top a plant and root the top, it always takes longer than middle and bottom level cut.

 

[supersmallgiant]

I was under the impression that cuts taken from the bottom rooted the easiest.

 

[Anti]

I take cuts from wherever I find 'em.

 

[Phaeton]

I was told to cut on the bottom, the closer to the root the quicker it will grow. It worked, but when I was topping a plant that had grown too large I cloned the mainstem top. It grew marginally faster and more hardy than the bottoms I usually use.

I clone top to bottom, usually 28 clones per mother. I use tips as well as all those little stringers growing off branches close to the main stem. Now that I watch I notice the tips grow best and yellowish stringers from the bottom are most likely to be runts. Otherwise not a lot of difference, the runts are small all their life while the rest even out after 5 or 6 weeks.

The plant I grow is a sativa dominate selected for robust clones rather than ultimate high. I acquired a northen lights and have the first set of clones started.
I'm cloning side by side with the sativa. Northern Lights are not nearly as strong and where the clones were cut is making more of a difference.

The bottom row is NL. as is the second from right and the last one in the middle row are NL, top left is NL. The rest are sativa.

The large tips do grow roots a little sooner, but the difference between indica and sativa is greater than the difference between top, middle, or bottom.

In the past I have had both strains contain plant lines that just did not want to clone, but in plants that clone well the top and bottom differences are small as long as the cuttings are healthy and green. :kitty:


https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=31091&pictureid=710660
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=31091&pictureid=710660

 

[spurr]

Endogenous ('from within') rooting hormones such as IBA and IAA (the latter gets converetd into IBA and NAA too, IIRC) are formed at shoot apical meristems (very top of each branch, a.k.a. shoot/branch "apex") and young leafs at apical meristems (IIRC). Ex., IBA is then translocated into the roots for growth.

Apical meristems and young (top) leafs are "source" tissue for IAA (and thus IBA, etc.) and roots are "sink" tissue for those rooting hormones.

When we "top" a plant to make more side (lateral) branches what we are really doing is moving the majority production of IAA into lower branch tips. "Apical dominance" is the phenomenon of 'christmass tree' plants. By topping plants we inhibit apical dominance for a short time, via. forcing lower branch tips to produce most of the plant's endogenous IAA (and thus IBA, etc.)

What that means is it matters not from where the cuttings are taken (i.e., lower, middle or upper parts of plants), but it's better to take longer cuttings than shorter ones, with respect to endogenous rooting hormones.

What I find to be key for fast and effective rooting is taking cuttings that are at least 3" long, from older brances, near the middle/lower stem. Older tissue seems to root faster than younger tissue, IME.

Also, I do not cut leafs in half, as is a common practice in the cannabis world. It's not needed and only serves to inhibit growth. When we take a cutting its shocked enough to reduce stomatal conductance to a high degree; which is exactly what is assumed to happen when cuttings leafs in half. The cuttings will grow faster and be ready to flower faster (days-week) without cutting the leafs, whole leafs photosynthesize much better than half leafs (and the cuttings are healthier too) ...

I think by cuttting leafs in half, one may be inhibiting movement of endognous rooting hormones from the top of the cutting to the basal end.

I have a customized aerocloner I built, I call it an "aerated-aerocloner". With my cloner, using no exogenous ('from outside') rottings hormones, nor cutting leafs, the cuttings I take show first roots in 3-4 days and are generally ready to be transplanted in 6-8 days (with large roots that soon).

 

[quantic_soul]

Spurr, I have found that using my ezcloner water pump on a timer set around 20 min on/20 min off has had a big impact on getting my root time down closer to yours. For me it is usually around 6 days to get roots.

Are you using any timer on your water pump?

I have to reread that thread that has your cloner description but I'm thinking you have way better aeration than the two blue airstones in my ezcloner. I vaguely remember seeing something you wrote about the optimal aeration. Maybe upgrading to a similar type of pvc aerator would help evenly aerate the water. Is that still how you are currently aerating your cloner?

 

[spurr]

Spurr, I have found that using my ezcloner water pump on a timer set around 20 min on/20 min off has had a big impact on getting my root time down closer to yours. For me it is usually around 6 days to get roots.

Are you using any timer on your water pump?

Yes, it's a repeate cycle timer. I use various times, but generally the spayers are 'on' for 1 or 2 minutes, and then 'off' for 5 or 6 minutes, then back on for 1 or 2 minutes, and off for 5 or 6 minutes. The air pump stays on all the time.

I make sure air-gap temp. says below ~75'F, normaly it's ~70-73'F. Water stays cool too, in the rez.

I have to reread that thread that has your cloner description but I'm thinking you have way better aeration than the two blue airstones in my ezcloner. I vaguely remember seeing something you wrote about the optimal aeration. Maybe upgrading to a similar type of pvc aerator would help evenly aerate the water. Is that still how you are currently aerating your cloner?

Yes. But I prefer using SweetWater glass-bonded air diffusers for vegetative cloning (higher DO from smaller bubbles vs. DIY PVC air diffuser). Aquatic Eco sells the Sweetwater med/fine bubble diffuser, and the fine bubble diffuser too (but that's better with pure O2 from a tank); both are light years better than the blue air stones from a pet store. Aquatic Eco also sells per-dilled poreus PVC pipe, with holes of 10-20 micron in diameter; that may be a good way to go, but I haven't tested it.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/

 

[mysophilia]

Your answer to your question is that youngest growth will have the most hormones in it due to it being first in line to get them...

 

[spurr]

@ quantic_soul:

Here are some links for you:

Aquatic Eco-Systems (very fine pore; for pure O2): bubble size = 100-500 micron (0.1-0.5 mm)
clean with muratic acid
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/4247/Aquatic-Eco-Systems-Air-Diffusers-Flat-Ceramic

Sweetwater (fine pore; for pure O2): bubble size = 500-2,000 micron (0.5-2 mm)
clean with muratic acid
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2459/Sweetwater-Fine-Pore-Diffusers

Porous plastic diffuser tubes (fine/med pore): bubble size = ???
clean with muratic acid
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1561/Porous-Plastic-Diffuser-Tubes

Sweetwater (med pore): bubble size = 1,000-3,000 micron (1-3 mm)
clean with muratic acid
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3533/Sweetwater-Air-Diffusers

FWIW, below is a similar setup to what I am going to test with a new design for "deep flow technique" method I have been working on, for conventiaotnal, aquaculture and microbeculture growing methods (and combinations thereof). I only plan to test using pure O2 if I cannot keep DO in ideal range at warmer water temps of ~75-77'F (re aquaculture). Ideal DO for plants is just above saturation point of water, ex., 8.5-9 ppm at 75'F; satuation at that temp is ~8.4 ppm. Over 9-10 ppm offers little/no beneift and even higher DO can inhibit plants. I'm going to set the tank up automated via. DO sensor at plant roots connected to a controller (a' la bottled Co2). There is danger to brining a O2 tank indoors though ... I may put a big tank outside and pipe in the O2.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2209/Fish-Flo2-Oxygenation-Systems

 

[quantic_soul]

Spurr, excellent info. I was aware of the glass fused air diffusers in the past but that site seems to be a good source for them. The blue ones are notorious for breaking apart and making a mess.

How are you testing your DO levels? or what are good meters for that? That seems like something people using DWC should be very interested in testing.

BTW that last oxygen systems really got the gears turning as to future uses for all my old oxygen tanks left over from my days as an apprentice glass blower

 

[Big Eggy]

Awwright!

 

[laylow]

lol....

 

[tester]

From: http://www.softsecrets.nl/modules/7/download.php?f=305&p=r.0KO&l=EN
page 36

Growing from clones has its obvious advantages, but which strains have the quickest strike rate and does it really make a difference where the cutting is taken from the mother? Soft Secrets investigates...
By Little Lebowski

 

[Big Eggy]

76% would be concidered a failure in the commercial industries* (*not weed).

Nice find though!

 

[headband 707]

Well lol I believe it depends on the plant.. How healthy it is and how much it likes to be cloned.
I have heard take no more then two cuttings from any one plant and I have seen ppl to 40+ from all over the plant for years.
Obviously if you cut the center of the stem you will get the best of the plant.
Sativa's don't mind being cloned where Indica's have a bigger resistance to this. Again it depends on the plant /timing and the health and obviously where you bring your clones afterwards lol peace out Headband707

 

[Microbeman]

Spurr; People actually trim leaves on cuttings? Holy molly! Thank goodness I learned propagation from a botanist rather than a pot grower. My best cuttings always seemed to come from the top of the main stem. Of course you know that with conifer trees, cuttings taken from non-growing shoots usually grow out as branches/shrubs.

 

[spurr]

Ha, yup they do. It's not uncommon to cut in half all remaining leafs on a vegetative cutting, when taking the cutting from the donor plant.

 

[headband 707]

Yeah what could a pot grower possible teach you LOL headband 707