passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

i don't take the lids off at all for the first 3 days. then it's approx;

day 4 10 minutes
5 15 min
6 30 min
7 45 min
8 60 min
9 90 min
10 120 min

this is a rough schedule. for example if you give it 10 min the first time and it is still all the way up with no loss of turgor give it a little more.

whenever you get to 2 hours you can leave the lid off.

big containers, a lot of material, maybe a little more prep and care than most methods.

but it is failsafe for when you simply, absolutely, must have a clone.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

delta,
Thanks for the reply, Maybe I'll give the top hats a try and report back here. I like the tire valves, I really do. I'm not enamored with the connection between them and the drip line. Honestly, I haven't came up with a better solution so I'm not bashing. Short of spending $10-$20 on a bulkhead fitting plus brass to go from it to barbed, I couldn't find another solution.

I''ve run a few SOGs. I'm looking to try out the PPKs but I'm not in a position to veg trees. I also see there is an economy of scale as you add more lights. To oversimplify, two lights can light one plant from two sides. 3 lights can light two plants from two sides, 4 lights .... I also have a number of beans (poor me) that I need to sort through. That will take forever adding one plant per week or 8 weeks.

Let me approach my question from a different direction. You think running PPKs under 1000 -2000W horizontal with the PPKS butting against each other (1/square foot) is a viable way to go? Say, 16 - 20 in a 4x4 or 4x5 arrangement per light. Or would you recommend a different density?

The upside is that when I want to get bored and grow trees, I'll have 20 PPKs around which would justify 19 lights

the latex tubing connection between the tire valve and the drip line is very tight and actually difficult to get apart.

if you are using the stock tire valves and the 1/4" od drip line you want black 3/16" id latex tubing.

i have since drilled the tire valves to 3/16" id and gone to 3/8" od black tubing and 5/16" id black latex tubing for connectors.

i did this because after about a year of continuous use the drip lines were clogging regularly. not a big problem and you could just replace them when they start impeding flow. the drip line is cheap.

the latex tubing can be ordered from fishing and diving supply places online. google 3/16" id or 5/16" id black latex tubing. i cut it into 3" pieces so a little is all you need.

don't use the amber latex, it grows algae like crazy.

as far as your plant density question i think it would work fine if you flowered at 2 or 3 weeks. the only drawback is that it is wasteful of medium if you are using 3.5 gal containers. i would think 2 gal containers would be better for a shorter veg period.

 

[delta9nxs]

As it turns out, the 'skinny' leaves were from way too much water. I was pulsing up to 45sec/1hr. It took 2 days to spill over. Apparently 30sec/hr was too much and reducing the GAP, slowly, to zero and 45 sec/hr was the 'straw'. I'm back to 15sec/2hrs and they are much happier, leves starting to look normal.

hey snook, you need at least a 2" air gap to move the perched water table out of the root zone.

i am running a 4" gap right now pulsing approx 12 oz's every 2 hours in veg and 16 oz's every 2 hours in flower.

 

[delta9nxs]

My latex tubing came today and I put together a "connection".

Valve stem - latex - drip line - latex tub - Valve stem

Looks and feels great and am sure that it could not be much easier and drip proof for sure.

Ill post a pic of it in the AM. I need sleep and another couple of posts. I will be doing a thread, and of course the build will be first. I am doing it exactly as it is here.
We also are in similar areas. I haven't decided to go vert the first run or not. I will need to get a cool tube so may just wait on the light change till run # 2.

6.5x6.5x 7 I have a 1k.

I am going to do 6 ppk in that area.

howdy, stranger!

my veg area is 7 x 7 ft. at one point i was running up to 8 plants a week apart in that space. by that i mean perpetual a week apart. i was vegging them 6 or 7 weeks usually and then moving them to flower.

i feel i lost yield because of the way they shaped in veg. they did not spread as much because each plant was not getting as much "premium" light.

i went to a four week veg that allowed the plants to spread out more with no shade avoidance responses and got more yield.

i think that if you were to run 4 plants as a unit grow in that space with a vertical 1k cool tubed managing the plants to keep the closest part at 14" from the arc tube you would realize at least 48 oz's with a good yielding indica based strain based on a 4 week veg and a 8-9 week flower.

you would also need to train the plants away from the lights in veg, especially weeks 2 and 3. flatten the backs like the pic i put up of the g13 and split or "butterfly" the fronts. this keeps more of the plant mass within range of the sweet spot of the light. the 4 plants will totally fill that space.

d9

 

[Snook]

hey snook, you need at least a 2" air gap to move the perched water table out of the root zone.

i am running a 4" gap right now pulsing approx 12 oz's every 2 hours in veg and 16 oz's every 2 hours in flower.

Check, my float valve is set at 3.75" but I'm thinking, the pulse sys, over time, was narrowing that gap to zero because of smaller root mass. because my veg time is under t5s, in the ppk cloners for 8 weeks, root mass is not as great, as yours is under HIDs. Pulse was too much too often, 24/7. and another great pic/tutorial.

 

[dgr]

D9,
Thanks for all the great info.

Snook,
I'm trying to understand what happened there. When the pulse cycle starts, it fills the lines with solution which is delivered to the PPKs. Concurrently when the cycle starts, the pulse bucket level drops and is filled by the control reservoir. This action lowers the level in the entire system which causes the float valve to fill the system. The medium is saturated and over time the wick "pulls" the excess solution into the lower PPK reservoir. This results in a raising of the solution level in the system.

You were pulsing more fluid than the plants could use between cycles. What I don't understand is how it "spilled over?" Are you saying that something over flowed? It seems to me the system would be self limiting. If you put an excess of solution into the system and then pulse that fluid, at some point the the solution level should be so high that a pulse cycle shouldn't drop it enough for the float valve to activate. I thought that was the accidental beauty of D9 separating the control bucket and the pulse bucket with a small diameter line.

What I'm gathering here is that Delta's long ago post about watching the float valve drip when the lights came on is some magical indicator. If it doesn't begin dripping before the beginning of the next pulse cycle, the system is being pulsed too often/heavily.

ImaginaryFriend, you are one of the funniest random people I've ever read.

 

[zeke99]

Delta9 What do you think are the factors that lead to fan leaves curling down?

This is my last round of plants before switching to PPK. I've got 5 around 2 x 600w HPS. 5 gallon buckets with drains, Peters + Calcinit EC 1.2 leaf surface 'day' temp 76-78, 'night' temp 74-75, RH - 55-60%. One plant's leaves started to curl immediately once flipped to 12/12. The others show no signs of anything wrong. The one had a gradual progression of more leaves curling and it's definitely going to yield less than the others. Thin flowers. I can't say for sure without a proper meter that it's not to close to the bulbs, but it's farther away than other non-affected plants... Roughly 15" - 16" to the front, but leaves in the back are curled as well. I've had this before problem with plants in coco, coco/perlite and peat based mixes and not always with the dialed in environmental conditions as they are now. These plants are in a commercial peat/coco/perlite mix with extra coco that I added. Any help would be much appreciated.

If you look around the web, there are millions of threads about this for cannabis.

The orchid and tomato growers talk about too much sunlight, cold water and cold air temperatures as possible non-biological causes.

 

[jjfoo]

Delta9 What do you think are the factors that lead to fan leaves curling down?

can you measure the EC of the runoff on the curled plant and also on a few plants that are not curling? I'd like to see if there is a large diff in that one plant.

 

[Stranger]

dgr see how low the pressure is from the valve? That is with over 2 gallons of water on the inside. The pressure is negligible.

As you can see it is a very tight arrangement. No way with the pressure invloved on the bottom side this is going to leak. no way.

Took about 3hours including bong breaks and I was drinking beer too, and it was fun It is looking awsome.

Thanks for the recomendations delta9nxs. I was thinking 4 was the sweet spot. I really would prefer a rotation. I have needs always and no reason for down time at all. If I am able to get close to the numbers you mentioned I will be one happy dude,

 

[dgr]

Stranger,
Thank you for the pics. That's 1/4" OD line, 3/16" ID surgical tubing and the tire valve, that's it? Or 3/8" OD line, 5/16" ID surgical tubing and the tire valve? No plumber's rubber tape or waterproof bandage tape?

Pressure at 12" isn't even 1/2 PSI. Crazy how we can use such small differentials to make stuff work. Good stuff.

 

[delta9nxs]

i thought some of you might like to see what i do taking the root ball down for transplant.

the kish x juicy fruit finally showed female in veg, so that makes 3 out of the 5 remaining strains from cash crop ken that have done this. a good sign. i took multiple cuttings from all 3 and put them into ppk's a week apart. the og nukush, the rene x nuken, and the kish x juicy fruit. as i mentioned i don't like to grow out seedlings normally for production but i want to check these asap for potency, aroma, flavor, etc.

the problem is that the roots spin and bind when kept in these containers for too long. the root balls must be unraveled and frayed into loose ends before transplant.

this will cause about a week slowdown in growth. by the end of a week there will be roots growing out of the sidewall holes. both the og nukush and the rene x nuken have recovered and are growing fine. they are also on schedule to flower as they were all about 20" at transplant and will reach around 30" in the allotted time left. the og nukush is 28" today and will be flowered next week.

so i just put a g13 in flower, followed by a swt. they will be followed by the two plants above, then a sweet tooth, then the k x jf.

i have rooted clones of all to follow these asap. the clones will be the true indicator for me. with the clones i will be looking for speed of growth, shape, and yield.

the first photo is a 50/50 mix of turface and rice hulls. so this is a test of this mix also. the pine bark, turface and rice hull mix from last week is doing fine so it is a viable option.

 

[delta9nxs]

Check, my float valve is set at 3.75" but I'm thinking, the pulse sys, over time, was narrowing that gap to zero because of smaller root mass. because my veg time is under t5s, in the ppk cloners for 8 weeks, root mass is not as great, as yours is under HIDs. Pulse was too much too often, 24/7. and another great pic/tutorial.

snook, the only reason the reservoir overflows is if the line to the control bucket is clogged.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9,
Thanks for all the great info.

Snook,
I'm trying to understand what happened there. When the pulse cycle starts, it fills the lines with solution which is delivered to the PPKs. Concurrently when the cycle starts, the pulse bucket level drops and is filled by the control reservoir. This action lowers the level in the entire system which causes the float valve to fill the system. The medium is saturated and over time the wick "pulls" the excess solution into the lower PPK reservoir. This results in a raising of the solution level in the system.

You were pulsing more fluid than the plants could use between cycles. What I don't understand is how it "spilled over?" Are you saying that something over flowed? It seems to me the system would be self limiting. If you put an excess of solution into the system and then pulse that fluid, at some point the the solution level should be so high that a pulse cycle shouldn't drop it enough for the float valve to activate. I thought that was the accidental beauty of D9 separating the control bucket and the pulse bucket with a small diameter line.

What I'm gathering here is that Delta's long ago post about watching the float valve drip when the lights came on is some magical indicator. If it doesn't begin dripping before the beginning of the next pulse cycle, the system is being pulsed too often/heavily.

ImaginaryFriend, you are one of the funniest random people I've ever read.

dgr, there are 3 reasons for water to spill over onto the floor. the first i mentioned above. the reservoir simply overflows because of a clogged line.

the second is that the tailpiece is not flowing right. in this case the res is not overflowing but the liquid is coming out of the sidewall holes.

the third is simply too much water in too short of a time frame and the tailpiece is overwhelmed.

imaginary friend is rather random.

 

[delta9nxs]

Delta9 What do you think are the factors that lead to fan leaves curling down?

This is my last round of plants before switching to PPK. I've got 5 around 2 x 600w HPS. 5 gallon buckets with drains, Peters + Calcinit EC 1.2 leaf surface 'day' temp 76-78, 'night' temp 74-75, RH - 55-60%. One plant's leaves started to curl immediately once flipped to 12/12. The others show no signs of anything wrong. The one had a gradual progression of more leaves curling and it's definitely going to yield less than the others. Thin flowers. I can't say for sure without a proper meter that it's not to close to the bulbs, but it's farther away than other non-affected plants... Roughly 15" - 16" to the front, but leaves in the back are curled as well. I've had this before problem with plants in coco, coco/perlite and peat based mixes and not always with the dialed in environmental conditions as they are now. These plants are in a commercial peat/coco/perlite mix with extra coco that I added. Any help would be much appreciated.

If you look around the web, there are millions of threads about this for cannabis.

The orchid and tomato growers talk about too much sunlight, cold water and cold air temperatures as possible non-biological causes.

hi, zeke! jj is thinking that it is too much nitrogen and he may be right but also it is a symptom of a saturated root zone.

are these in hempy's?

 

[delta9nxs]

Stranger,
Thank you for the pics. That's 1/4" OD line, 3/16" ID surgical tubing and the tire valve, that's it? Or 3/8" OD line, 5/16" ID surgical tubing and the tire valve? No plumber's rubber tape or waterproof bandage tape?

Pressure at 12" isn't even 1/2 PSI. Crazy how we can use such small differentials to make stuff work. Good stuff.

gravity sucks real good! i have always been into low tech solutions to high tech problems.

d9

 

[jjfoo]

jj is thinking that it is too much nitrogen

Nope...I was not aware too much nitrogen caused curling. I was just curious if the EC was different than the other plants. It is a easy measure to take and may give us a clue. I don't know how you could guess the N from just reading the EC.

My outside fig tree's leaves are curling up wards and in the past had seen this on my indoor plants. Is this generally seen as excessive N?

Since using Jacks it has stopped. I used to use more N. I thought the N was a little low in the jacks combo, but I am having the healthiest plants of my life with it...

 

[jjfoo]

i thought some of you might like to see what i do taking the root ball down for transplant.

from seeing how you do this, it makes me think about our previous conversation on root pruning. When I root prune, I am really gentle with the root ball.

I practice having no (zero) loose roots. I pop out my root ball, then basically trim any matting on the bottom . I go out of my way not to disturb the media around the roots and trim off every loose root.

correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you have all loose roots from removing lots of the media

If this is actuallly the case, I'd suggest trying a transplant where you don't disturb the root ball completely but just trim (with really sharp scissors) the matting and any roots that are not in media (like stray roots sticking out).

I clone in coco and transplant to coco, so I don't worry about a perched water from two mediums interfacing.

 

[Snook]

D9,
Thanks for all the great info.

Snook,
I'm trying to understand what happened there. When the pulse cycle starts, it fills the lines with solution which is delivered to the PPKs. Concurrently when the cycle starts, the pulse bucket level drops and is filled by the control reservoir. This action lowers the level in the entire system which causes the float valve to fill the system. The medium is saturated and over time the wick "pulls" the excess solution into the lower PPK reservoir. This results in a raising of the solution level in the system.

You were pulsing more fluid than the plants could use between cycles. What I don't understand is how it "spilled over?" Are you saying that something over flowed? It seems to me the system would be self limiting. If you put an excess of solution into the system and then pulse that fluid, at some point the the solution level should be so high that a pulse cycle shouldn't drop it enough for the float valve to activate. I thought that was the accidental beauty of D9 separating the control bucket and the pulse bucket with a small diameter line.

What I'm gathering here is that Delta's long ago post about watching the float valve drip when the lights came on is some magical indicator. If it doesn't begin dripping before the beginning of the next pulse cycle, the system is being pulsed too often/heavily.

ImaginaryFriend, you are one of the funniest random people I've ever read.

Yes, true, drg. The volume rez (18gal), feeds the controll bucket (where the float valve is) the controll rez, feeds (yes, with tubeing) each of the PPKs AND the pulse bucket. Here is how it went: yes, the controll bucket determins the height of the GAP in the PPKs, it also determines the level of the pulse rez. the pulse rez was feeding the PPKs faster than the girls in the PPKs via their wicks, so each pulse, 13 OZ/hr would start to reduce the GAP from 3.75" each pulse because the plants werent recovvering from the pulse thru the wick. I was basiclly running a drain to waste sys and the PPK rez was the drain because it was getting more water from the top than it could use from the PPKs rez. So the drip drip drip from the float valve never stoped dripping (I do not watch it as closely as D9). If I fed the pulse rez directly form the volume rez , I'd have to run a second float valve in the pulse rez. I do not want to do that. Why? I do not know.

 

[Snook]

Nope...I was not aware too much nitrogen caused curling. I was just curious if the EC was different than the other plants. It is a easy measure to take and may give us a clue. I don't know how you could guess the N from just reading the EC.

My outside fig tree's leaves are curling up wards and in the past had seen this on my indoor plants. Is this generally seen as excessive N?

Since using Jacks it has stopped. I used to use more N. I thought the N was a little low in the jacks combo, but I am having the healthiest plants of my life with it...[/quote]

AMEN brother! and I'm not sure if you are going there but I thought one of the advantages of the jacks is that it doesnt ?? what's the word? Percpitate? <not rain but seperate like oil and water, if it sits.

 

[dgr]

D9,
Thanks for splaining me.

Snook, I think you're looking for precipitate.

What the hell is a cipitate anyway? And what has to happen to a precipitate for it to become a cipitate? Sorry, IF hasn't posted in awhile.