Republicans HELP support Marijuana legistlation - Yes you read that right!

[forty]

Republicans are hurting, especially after all this Paul Ryan, cut medicare crap (that Paul Ryan is one sad political guinea pig we won't see for long)

at least he had the balls to put forth a budget. obama took a pass on a budget with majorities in both houses and the white house. scoring political points above the best interest of the country. sitting back and pointing fingers aint the way forward imo. shows a lack of leadership. take a look at CBO predictions.. somethins gotta give.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

i wish no one imprisonment for anybody growing a plant .....
i just meant supporting obama, while to this day uses
his goverment mafia to imprison and destroy lives and kill plants!!! on my hard working tax dollars FUCKED UP SHIT......
KARAMA IN CHECK
RIP DR JAY

i understand montana was fucked... we fight it in every legal state every day.... but are alternative was repub john mccain... o im sure he would back MMJ 100%

bottom line is we have medical mj in DEMOCRATIC states (major majority) its not supported in republican circles and never will be to vote repub over democratic for purly MMJ reason is totally insane... and thats who u vote for not voting for a democrat....


I love ron paul but i dont think ill ever see a day when a independent gets close to the top.... they usually just steal votes from one party... i dont think thats what ron is trying to do... but in the end thats what happens.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

i wish no one imprisonment for anybody growing a plant .....
i just meant supporting obama, while to this day uses
his goverment mafia to imprison and destroy lives and kill plants!!! on my hard working tax dollars FUCKED UP SHIT......
KARAMA IN CHECK
RIP DR JAY

I don't like it any better than you. But congressional law requires congressional reform. If there's any issue that would IMO guarantee a conservative president in the next election is the incumbent attempting anything this polarized.

Recent polling suggests as high as 78% of voters want an end to W's tax cuts. Doesn't matter that some conservative think tanks suggest we'll get nowhere w/o revenue increases. But their lawmakers say no. Norquist had em shaking until 33 conservatives banded to support ethanol subsidy reform. But then we have the new crop of tea party lawmakers and the handful of conservative incumbents catering to them and tea party voters.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

sad thing is tea party is just another part of the repub hand and even sadder they think they think for themselfs... lol

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

at least he had the balls to put forth a budget. obama took a pass on a budget with majorities in both houses and the white house. scoring political points above the best interest of the country. sitting back and pointing fingers aint the way forward imo. take a look at CBO predictions.. somethins gotta give.

That's interesting. Did Bush ever sign a budget into law? I got the impression he was kind of on-the-fly. Cheney said deficits didn't matter. Sounds like budgets didn't either, at least with the VP. VP isn't typically budget-coordinator but memory suggests he thwarted budget negotiations with WOT concerns. My memory ain't the best these days.

You're absolutely right that something has to give. Have you seen Pawlenty's tax-reform proposal? I think politi-fact estimated a quadrupled national debt after 10 years. No conservative candidate (yet) supports an end to W's tax cuts. Bachmann says she'll repeal health care reform, even though CBO says that will cost us more in the long run. IMO, another trickle-up president will transform spending diarrhea into dysentery.

I think CBO clocked Clinton's budget surplus at 236 billion. If the revenue formula had been continued with his predecessor, CBO estimated an over 10 trillion surplus after eight years.

You're right about O having majorities in both houses for two years. Unfortunately, (IMO) blue dog dems and the nearly non-compromising opposition persuaded Obama to emulate his predecessor. Can't back up my ass-umptions.

IMO, Bush was better at lining up the indians for support than Obama. But dems have a legacy of not dancing to the same tune. I regret I didn't vote for HC in the primary. IMO, hindsight suggests she'd of had more national support but she's only SoS. No telling what the presidency would have done to her (surprisingly high) popularity today.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

Well, let's see. Bush had 8 years and O has less than 2.5. Try that observation in another another five and a half.

I'll eat my hat if more time makes any difference, but that's to be seen of course.

Unconstitutional war(s)? I believe Congress declared war on the Taliban. Iraq was another president. Pakistan, Yemen (and potential unknowns) are counter insurgencies.

Congress gave authorization for Afghanistan and Iraq but war hasn't been declared since WW2. Doesn't make it constitutional though. Then there's all the reports of the Libyan rebels being Al-Qaeda. But if you ask me, the Arab spring reeks of CIA colour revolutions ala Kermit Roosevelt and Mossadegh. But that's a different convo...

Ellsberg offers Libya as a potential war crime while Sarkozy says European Nato is doing all the work. One suggests apples and the other oranges. What's your insight?

The EU Nato nations can't even keep munitions stockpiled from what i've read. We both know who is doing the heavy lifting in Libya.

No mention of the guy that introduced all that. PA is an act of Congress. No decree options here. Funny how water boarding wasn't torture with W and the word "torture" goes 'round Obama with little to no context. Our wiki leaker gets solitary confinement. Human rights groups say that's torture. What constitutes torture in your opinion?

I think everyone deserves the right to a fair trial...but to be locked up for years for whatever reason without trial is against everything American. Jesse Ventura has been waterboarded and says it's without a doubt torture, i'll take his word on that one. Either way it's low on my list of concerns however it's just an example of one of his false promises.

As far as the Patriot Act is concerned, whether congress passed it or not is irrelevant as it is a direct violation of the 4th amendment and the Supreme Court was complacent on that one. Plus we all know it will forever be renewed as the war on terror is an ideological war and can not be won. Fear and intimidation should not be used to pass laws.

Yep, strong manufacturing and the unions that built the middle-class are virtually non-existent compared to three decades ago. Citizens United, conservative SCOTUS, opposition 527s, opposition super-pacs, and oppositional support from the same fortune 100 insiders leaves little left to turn for necessary campaign cash. Little options left unless you suggest Obama wave the white flag and quit.

Corporate campaign donations should not even be a word as it amounts to nothing more then a bribe. So it's not Obama's fault for playing ball in a corrupt system? Suppose not, aslong as the history books make it clear.

Throughout history and as long as the sun rises. How much power do you imagine decree consists of?

More then it use to.

Yee hah! Your free market at work and 'sacrifice' is just some letters strung together w/o context.

Idk i wouldn't call buying your way into the treasury and working in kahootz with your buddies in the Fed to set policies allowing the looting of the country free market...hell the existence of the Fed and central economic planning is a page lifted straight out of the communist manifesto.

ROFL. If I read fascism a thousand times, I'm lucky if one attempts to communicate what fascism actually is.

Merger of State and Corporate powers. Call it what you want.

Based on your uh, comment, Bush's lies = subsequent liar is better.

Maybe i'm not giving Bush enough credit, he didn't do a bad job selling us the idea of WMDs in Iraq did he?

Not sure how many sheeple you'll influence with sound bites.

If the MSM is anything to go by.....

As long as you don't pay attention to the opposing "no", you can pretend that Obama is an ineffective dictator.

He had dem majority when he first got in..i didn't see him try and do anything he said he would. Who said no to what?

Decree won't grow with the next president. Hard to imagine Paul being a better leader when his own party won't play his kind of ball. Not to mention an immeasurable amount of the electorate. Libertarian (total) free-market principles constitutes about 1% of the electorate.

Check-point checkie checking out.

I don't expect anything. As far as i'm concerned the game is rigged and the destiny of the USA was laid out long ago. Sad we've been reduced to a mere corporate/banking tool used to boost profits at the expense of prosperity and freedom.

Can we all agree that either way we're all fucked?

 

[Capital G]

Yeah we all thought Barak was gonna change the world but, in actuality the burden will always be on the people to do the moving and the shaking. We have an archaic way of governing which, will always hinder progress. The two party system needs to be scrapped period! That shit is in the way! All you see bickering and little results. Lobbyist need to be removed and parliamentary procedures needs to be replaced with a progressive and modern form of conducting order. That patriot act being reinstated is some serious bullshit but, let's keep it 100. Obama has been disrespected and undermined by republicans from day one because, of his african heritage. They've refused to work with him or work for the people if, it involved a Obama in any way. As a veteran their actions and the measures they've taken in this regard are nothing short of treason. @ the end of the day we're all americans and if, you don't like or can't except a half african-american president or any other foreign heritage as a leader you need to get the fuck out!(cuz we all are immigrants) This is 2011, that shit is unamerican and those republicans need to be prosecuted for treason. The measures they've taken are only hurting us as a nation. I'm not a democrat btw, independent.

Keeping on topic one thing you see from Obama is that he's competent enough to understand what the people want. This mmj movement is tremendous but, it's all in the shadows. We should start linking up and organizing like the civil rights movement in the 60's. There's too many states voting it in and over half the nation supports legalization. You know us americans love trends and are quick to hop on a bandwagon. We need to start rolling up, sparking up, and marching all over the country! Done peacefully the whole nation will follow the lead...well, almost but, the majority will.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

listen i here ya .... what has obama done...? well hes TRIED to do alot.... couple things come to mind is school loans and credit cards...

do i believe in bigger government?? no but i think that the least we could do is provide free health care being the 2nd richest government in the world... fucking CUBA has socialized health care...

Under Bush i think there was like 23 agencies that were created like homeland security that could totally be abolished... do i think obama is great? no do i think he tried? yea

I think people are sheeple if they dont believe that the government is bought and paid for... once the cronnies get in they set laws and rules to keep them in and others out. its disgusting game u have to sell your soul for. Its not geared to help the people in fact its geared to fuck them.... the people are the last will that is not TOTALLY controlled. ( i say totally becuase the news and media brainwashes the weak everyday... if you dont think for yourself your part of the problem). Its the last power we have and even thats rigged to shit.

so why is he better then bush... only 1 new war with 1/8 the spending and he has done at least a couple thigns to help the commoner... bush... never did shit.


On a side note i think its funny how people forget there history... remember the clinton years....? then remember the bush years..... now its all blamed on obama no matter whos fault it was... We were in one of the best economical positions if not thee best we have ever been under clinton... He payed off all our old debt and he had over a trillion dollar surplus.....Then comes bush... leaves us with like 3 trillion in debt 2 wars and a economy in the shitter... the rich got rich as fuck the middle class dissappeared and all was left was poor and rich...

But fuck it blame it on obama......

Not blaming anything on Obama, just trying to make the point he's not going to change anything.

As far as free healthcare goes. Sure sounds great but it won't work. First of all we're not rich at all, we're deeply in debt and most of our GDP is based on financial ponzi schemes and the service sector. Running a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit leaves us in no position to pay 300 million peoples doctor bills. Then there's the fact obamacare was written by insurance companies and is in effect a government mandated monopoly. Well that will do nothing but give us overpriced healthcare and more then likely of a lesser quality.

Just like those easy government backed school loans have done nothing but jack up the price of tuition. Not to mention most of our new collage grads will end up defaulting on those loans leaving the tax payer footing the bill yet again.

Your fourth paragraph is spot on, what are we arguing about? lol they're all abunch of crooks.

Clinton signed the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act effectively destroying Glass Steagle and legalizing Wall Streets looting. Oh yeah he dabbled in his fair share of 'commander n cheifing' too.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

Yeah we all thought Barak was gonna change the world but, in actuality the burden will always be on the people to do the moving and the shaking. We have an archaic way of governing which, will always hinder progress. The two party system needs to be scrapped period! That shit is in the way! All you see bickering and little results. Lobbyist need to be removed and parliamentary procedures needs to be replaced with a progressive and modern form of conducting order. That patriot act being reinstated is some serious bullshit but, let's keep it 100. Obama has been disrespected and undermined by republicans from day one because, of his african heritage. They've refused to work with him or work for the people if, it involved a Obama in any way. As a veteran their actions and the measures they've taken in this regard are nothing short of treason. @ the end of the day we're all americans and if, you don't like or can't except a half african-american president or any other foreign heritage as a leader you need to get the fuck out!(cuz we all are immigrants) This is 2011, that shit is unamerican and those republicans need to be prosecuted for treason. The measures they've taken are only hurting us as a nation. I'm not a democrat btw, independent.

Keeping on topic one thing you see from Obama is that he's competent enough to understand what the people want. This mmj movement is tremendous but, it's all in the shadows. We should start linking up and organizing like the civil rights movement in the 60's. There's too many states voting it in and over half the nation supports legalization. You know us americans love trends and are quick to hop on a bandwagon. We need to start rolling up, sparking up, and marching all over the country! Done peacefully the whole nation will follow the lead...well, almost but, the majority will.

Amen brotha, the false left right paradigm is nothing but a divide and conquer technique, we're all Americans, what about the interests all Americans share?

Damn this thread has been seriously derailed....I'll comment on the legalization issue...It will never happen...they're just making TOO much money on prohibition from EVERY angle....from CIA drug smuggling, to the judicial profits, to the contracts handed out fighting the war on drugs, all the way down to the profitable prison system. You're asking a lot of people to find a new job with legalization. Without even going into what industries could be displaced by MMJ and Hemp.

 

[forty]

That's interesting. Did Bush ever sign a budget into law? I got the impression he was kind of on-the-fly. Cheney said deficits didn't matter. Sounds like budgets didn't either, at least with the VP. VP isn't typically budget-coordinator but memory suggests he thwarted budget negotiations with WOT concerns. My memory ain't the best these days.

can't disagree with ya here. bush was not a fiscal conservative until obama came along.

You're absolutely right that something has to give. Have you seen Pawlenty's tax-reform proposal? I think politi-fact estimated a quadrupled national debt after 10 years. No conservative candidate (yet) supports an end to W's tax cuts. Bachmann says she'll repeal health care reform, even though CBO says that will cost us more in the long run. IMO, another trickle-up president will transform spending diarrhea into dysentery.

haven't seen tim's proposal and not familliar with politi-fact.. in any case, spending and debt have us on a fast track to being fucked greece style. bush tax cuts are an easy and obvious target but won't make a **** hair difference in our overall debt obligations. you can tax the fuck outta the rich... it sounds good but in reality won't make a dent in the deficit compared to our spending commitments.

Bachmann says she'll repeal health care reform, even though CBO says that will cost us more in the long run.

CBO numbers are based on collecting taxes years before benefits are available. not the most accurate. plus, in the last few days it's been discovered that millions more people will be eligible for medi-cal that planned for, ultimately costing more. time will tell and i'm not feeling optimistic.

I think CBO clocked Clinton's budget surplus at 236 billion. If the revenue formula had been continued with his predecessor, CBO estimated an over 10 trillion surplus after eight years.

disco, i appreciate your point of view but you gotta admit that economic environment had more to do with clinton's surplus than political policy... denying so weakens your position. clinton rode the wave of the dot-com bubble and living right in the middle of it gave me fist hand perspective. there was so much money around here flowing out of everyone's asses it's hard to put into words. schwag oz's were $400 all day long. 25 yr olds with 2 ducatis, a porsche, and an M3, with money left over to burn. clinton policy? not so much. venture capital? you bet.

You're right about O having majorities in both houses for two years. Unfortunately, (IMO) blue dog dems and the nearly non-compromising opposition persuaded Obama to emulate his predecessor.

pussy. lack of leadership.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I'll eat my hat if more time makes any difference, but that's to be seen of course.





Congress gave authorization for Afghanistan and Iraq but war hasn't been declared since WW2. Doesn't make it constitutional though. Then there's all the reports of the Libyan rebels being Al-Qaeda. But if you ask me, the Arab spring reeks of CIA colour revolutions ala Kermit Roosevelt and Mossadegh. But that's a different convo...



The EU Nato nations can't even keep munitions stockpiled from what i've read. We both know who is doing the heavy lifting in Libya.





I think everyone deserves the right to a fair trial...but to be locked up for years for whatever reason without trial is against everything American. Jesse Ventura has been waterboarded and says it's without a doubt torture, i'll take his word on that one. Either way it's low on my list of concerns however it's just an example of one of his false promises.

As far as the Patriot Act is concerned, whether congress passed it or not is irrelevant as it is a direct violation of the 4th amendment and the Supreme Court was complacent on that one. Plus we all know it will forever be renewed as the war on terror is an ideological war and can not be won. Fear and intimidation should not be used to pass laws.





Corporate campaign donations should not even be a word as it amounts to nothing more then a bribe. So it's not Obama's fault for playing ball in a corrupt system? Suppose not, aslong as the history books make it clear.





More then it use to.





Idk i wouldn't call buying your way into the treasury and working in kahootz with your buddies in the Fed to set policies allowing the looting of the country free market...hell the existence of the Fed and central economic planning is a page lifted straight out of the communist manifesto.





Merger of State and Corporate powers. Call it what you want.





Maybe i'm not giving Bush enough credit, he didn't do a bad job selling us the idea of WMDs in Iraq did he?




If the MSM is anything to go by.....





He had dem majority when he first got in..i didn't see him try and do anything he said he would. Who said no to what?





I don't expect anything. As far as i'm concerned the game is rigged and the destiny of the USA was laid out long ago. Sad we've been reduced to a mere corporate/banking tool used to boost profits at the expense of prosperity and freedom.

Can we all agree that either way we're all fucked?

Here's to hoping you don't have to eat the hat. Last time I did that, not too savory. I understand what you're saying about declared war. I'm not very versed in congressional approval of presidential order. Ellsberg opines that every president since Vietnam has constituted war crimes. However, the Pentagon papers reveal we were "in" Vietnam since 1947 (and) I have no clue what "in" entails. At least as far back as Tonkin-boy Johnson. I can't say Ike didn't warn us about the MIC, I just underestimated after-the-fact. Yeah that Shah double bubble was notorious.

You're right about us being in Libya, tough to figure this one out with lawyers disagreeing with each other. I know the constitution is more clear in this area than others. The WOT has ferked us up as a country like the Cold War and installing democracies that turn out to be dictatorships.

The GITMO thing is a real beotch. Don't know how to say this w/o pointing fingers but IMO, this is one promise Obama couldn't keep under the circumstances. IMO, terrorists should be tried in civilian courts. Not just the Geneva conventions of what constitutes war criminals but the apparent morass of military tribunals in general. I'm with you and Jessee, water boarding is torture and the WOT is not a winning strategy. I'm just not convinced the wiki leaker has been tortured nor has O's directive endorsed it. But stranger things happen too frequently for comfort.

I'd like to see the campaign monies dwindle to individual contributions only. As bad as I hate to admit, that means union organized funding too. Conservatives just have the advantage in that area and I can't offer viable alternative from playing the big money game. Maybe what McCain attempted (and Obama balked) is the best option. Public financing, plain and simple would get rid of all the attack ads that pollute the process.

With all due respect, the Fed doesn't answer to the president. The Fed does have the potential to answer to Congress but it takes an act of Congress to hold them to account. IMO, our political polarization thwarts this. Not sure I understand how the Fed is communistic. Central banks predate Marks by several centuries. Maybe Marx and Engels weren't as original as I thought.

I always thought fascism was rather hard to define. At least the opinions I've read seem to diverge. I have the tenancy to look at Mussolini telling otherwise private enterprise what to make and dictated the payment of. He basically militarized like Hitler but then again Hitler wasn't regarded as a fascist. I'll admit this one is a bit confusing for me. Thanks for your perspective om that one.

Best I recall, opposition watered down or outright thwarted proposed legislation across the board. I don't have a direct line to negotiations but remember thinking of the opposition as Nancy Reagan's just say no... to practically anything that would endear Obama to voters. Wasn't just the other side, Obama's had a tough time with members in his own party. We lost the public option, leaving mandated health insurance as the only money saving option, not to mention an estimated 47 million folks will be able to buy insurance coverage. I'd list more but I'm running out of gas atm.

I'll offer the opposition and blue dogs said no to things that increased investment and instead preferred spending cuts, tax cuts and general conservative, economic values. Obama's getting out of Iraq, (IMO not soon enough) increasing focus on Afghanistan and going after Bin Laden were all campaign promises. I just didn't imagine that nation building would rear it's ugly head so soon after Iraq. We really did a number on Iraq from both ends. The Marshall plan is touted as a model from rebuilding Germany, Italy and Japan. I get the feeling that private enterprise aka Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater make for NB players but we should have had gov oversight. IMO, Paul Bremmer was out to lunch.

IMO, selling us on WMDs was Bush's (and Americas') worst legacy because we invaded a sovereign nation that didn't constitute a national threat. The 'spreading democracy' bit was baloney as Iran can attest. Spreading democracy is code for corporate and WS interests. We've been doing this in Colombia since Clinton, maybe before.

I agree, we're fucked. But we might disagree on how to take the right course where course is multi-faceted.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

haven't seen tim's proposal and not familliar with politi-fact.. in any case, spending and debt have us on a fast track to being fucked greece style. bush tax cuts are an easy and obvious target but won't make a **** hair difference in our overall debt obligations. you can tax the fuck outta the rich... it sounds good but in reality won't make a dent in the deficit compared to our spending commitments.



CBO numbers are based on collecting taxes years before benefits are available. not the most accurate. plus, in the last few days it's been discovered that millions more people will be eligible for medi-cal that planned for, ultimately costing more. time will tell and i'm not feeling optimistic.

USA today just put out an article stating 65 trillion in unfunded liabilities in SS and Medicare/cade. Plus you've got a literal black hole of derivative debt that came with TARP. That Washington is not putting on the public balance sheet, yet.

The books are cooked big time. Obviously spending won't be cut significantly as they just got done arguing over a measly 33 billion in spending cuts while threatening total bedlam from a govt shutdown. So they'll never cut the trillion plus needed to start to sort things out. China is dumping T bills and obviously Europe is in no position to pick up the slack. What option will there be besides Inflate our way out or default? Either way the people get the shaft. Will we go into receivership to the Fed if we default? By that i mean public assets ala Greece.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

Here's to hoping you don't have to eat the hat. Last time I did that, not too savory. I understand what you're saying about declared war. I'm not very versed in congressional approval of presidential order. Ellsberg opines that every president since Vietnam has constituted war crimes. However, the Pentagon papers reveal we were "in" Vietnam since 1947 (and) I have no clue what "in" entails. At least as far back as Tonkin-boy Johnson. I can't say Ike didn't warn us about the MIC, I just underestimated after-the-fact. Yeah that Shah double bubble was notorious....................

Yeah there's been a long long line of unconstitutional for profit wars since '45. Not saying Bush was an innovator in that field. Whether it's in the name of battling the evil commies, drug lords, or muslim fanatics. The story doesn't change but after 60 years America is just about sucked dry which is a crying shame. If only we listened to Ike...don't know how he could have been more clear on that one...i guess the DOEd didn't help spreading that particular history lesson any eh.

I doubt the original intent was ever to install a democracy anywhere, more of a puppet dictator to use then lose. But you've got to sell it somehow right? Quaddafi was trying to launch his own gold backed currency and i do not think that sat right with the global economic plan that seems to be unfolding. Yes i think this collapse will be an excuse to usher in a new economic world order so to speak. Whether done on purpose or not is up to debate. I say yes. Not to mention the heavy Chinese investment in Libya that has all been obliterated with this civil war.

I know the Fed doesn't answer to anyone, maybe i misworded that. But this is certainly a big part of the problem. Let the Treasury issue a debt free currency tyvm.

I'm pretty sure Mussolini himself defined fascism as merging of state and corporate power but that may be a misattributed quote. Either way Hitler was financed in large part by a consortium of corporations...hell Grandpa Bush's very own Union Banking Co was seized for laundering Nazi money.

Oh yeah we've been spreading democracy for longer then anyone can remember, think banana republics brought to you by the classy United Fruit Co., look into a book called 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' very revealing.

We may disagree on the correct course but are we safe to say the current one isn't it?

Anyway DiscoBiscuit this is about the most intelligent convo i've ever seen on the internet, muchless a message board. Who would've thought. I think prohibition is a disservice to the power structure as it has turned many people onto the fact that the govt is extremely corrupt, who normally might accept what they're told as the general population seems to do.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

can't disagree with ya here. bush was not a fiscal conservative until obama came along.



haven't seen tim's proposal and not familliar with politi-fact.. in any case, spending and debt have us on a fast track to being fucked greece style. bush tax cuts are an easy and obvious target but won't make a **** hair difference in our overall debt obligations. you can tax the fuck outta the rich... it sounds good but in reality won't make a dent in the deficit compared to our spending commitments.



CBO numbers are based on collecting taxes years before benefits are available. not the most accurate. plus, in the last few days it's been discovered that millions more people will be eligible for medi-cal that planned for, ultimately costing more. time will tell and i'm not feeling optimistic.



disco, i appreciate your point of view but you gotta admit that economic environment had more to do with clinton's surplus than political policy... denying so weakens your position. clinton rode the wave of the dot-com bubble and living right in the middle of it gave me fist hand perspective. there was so much money around here flowing out of everyone's asses it's hard to put into words. schwag oz's were $400 all day long. 25 yr olds with 2 ducatis, a porsche, and an M3, with money left over to burn. clinton policy? not so much. venture capital? you bet.



pussy. lack of leadership.

If the pumps empty, it has to be primed. Business is sitting on 30 years of trickle up and it has come home to roost. Anything short of a New Deal approach will only see further decline because corporate spending isn't happening despite giving them the store. McGovern was routed for the opposite direction and I like to see the same thing happen to all 'voodoo' lawmakers.

CBO says that ending W's tax cuts would amount to a tril each year. Looking back at ten years of tax cuts, I honestly think it's apparent this was the wrong direction. IMO, 4 points ain't taxing the ferk out of em. Almost everybody made buck in the 90s and we can't buy their shit if we're struggling with far less economic opportunity than those days. Clinton's revenue strategy was credited with creating 23 million jobs compared to Bush's 1.8 (which were largely lost by the time he left office.)

I'm with you on projected forecasts. Catholicisms, oops cataclysms like 9/11 can blow estimates out of the water. But it's basically the same procedure that businesses use to finance their operations. It ain't perfect but it is somewhat scientific. IMO (and not to mention real world economists) attribute Clinton's surplus to his revenue stricture, cutting the size of government and welfare-to-work programs. The conservative Congress shares the accolades but black eyes have the tendency to be blamed on the leader. IMO, that means Clinton gets the credit he's due as that leader. He didn't just pull all that shit from his buns, Greenspan and Rubin had a lot to do with it. Too bad both of their legacies took a hit in the Bush years.

The tech bubble was happening toward Clinton's exit and the bust straddled both Clinton and Bush. Compared to the housing bubble and systemic risk, it was a rather mild recession. I read the reason it busted was due to blue-sky forecasts, financing to support what ultimately didn't pan out as practical or even investment worthy. Venture capital played out for the google's and amazon's etc. But folks were bumped in the drift just like the housing bust. Sustained growth is always less volatile in either direction. Big booms more often than not lead us towards big busts. If it weren't for Greenspan's sustained low interest rates, bond returns wouldn't have sucked and all the Asian money wouldn't have sent housing construction into overdrive, housing prices wouldn't have artificially inflated and we wouldn't have had the scale of lending and mortgage frauds. Not to mention junk securities and the insurance to pay when we didn't have the principal to cover losses. It was like a machine designed to blow.... hard. Wall Street couldn't have made the money it did w/o defrauding the process and the world.

A windshield cowboy and a pussy. I'll let you have the cowboy.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

Well the Feds attempt to keep the dot com bubble inflated was a contributing factor to driving the housing bubble. The market needs to dictate interest rates not that damned pesky Fed. But the criminality was rampant with the housing bubble. Totally useless loans being given AAA ratings so they could be packaged in CDOs with peoples 401ks...Then the ability they were given to create all this derivative 'wealth' collecting fat bonuses on the way up and letting the tax payer eat the bursting bubble. While collecting even more cash from the bets you placed against the loans. How did they get away with that? Seriously.

Speaking of interest rates how screwed are we when they eventually rise? What's 5%? 10%? of 14.3 trillion? We'll be spending half of all tax revenue on interest alone.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Well the Feds attempt to keep the dot com bubble inflated was a contributing factor to driving the housing bubble. The market needs to dictate interest rates not that damned pesky Fed. But the criminality was rampant with the housing bubble. Totally useless loans being given AAA ratings so they could be packaged in CDOs with peoples 401ks...Then the ability they were given to create all this derivative 'wealth' collecting fat bonuses on the way up and letting the tax payer eat the bursting bubble. While collecting even more cash from the bets you placed against the loans. How did they get away with that? Seriously.

Speaking of interest rates how screwed are we when they eventually rise? What's 5%? 10%? of 14.3 trillion? We'll be spending half of all tax revenue on interest alone.

Oops, I'm back. Interesting comments are better than my insomniac ass hugging the pillow.

Just had to offer a possible answer to how things got this way. Gram Leach Bliley repealed Glass Steagall (I get the strong impression you already know the history.) As far as my oft lowly opinion, poor Clinton bobbed at the apple and got the worm instead. Not to mention NAFTA. What a couple of bookends for the philanderer that was otherwise my favorite boy.

When Clinton said, "I'm still relevant", I'd like to think he compromised GLB to get other things he wanted. But that doesn't explain NAFTA. Mexico wanted more than buying and selling, they wanted employment among other things. It started our manufacturing flight years before global trade beget so many multi-national corporations. IMO, legislation didn't see the minimum Mexican requirements turn into the massive job flight the realities revealed.

I won't try to overemphasize regulation as I realize it goes against free market ideals. I'd personally prefer a regulated market where IMO fraud necessitates oversight. And regulation isn't an always good scenario, even in my somewhat liberal perspective. Believe it or not, I realize that some of that far left shit is why we're here today.

I'm not against the free market and conservatism, they're core values of our realities. IMO, mechanisms in general aren't the good guy nor the bad guy. They're innate envelopes for the human element. Respective people comprise both the valued [and] corrupt elements that push these mechanisms away from each other. I realize Norquist subscribers want less regulation and maybe even none at all. I'll have to get a lot older and mellower to even say the word Grover w/o showing my fangs.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

Oops, I'm back. Interesting comments are better than my insomniac ass hugging the pillow.

Just had to offer a possible answer to how things got this way. Gram Leach Bliley repealed Glass Steagall (I get the strong impression you already know the history.) As far as my oft lowly opinion, poor Clinton bobbed at that apple as well as NAFTA. What a couple of bookends for the philanderer that was otherwise my favorite. When Clinton said I'm still relevant, I'd like to think he compromised GLB to get other things he wanted. But that doesn't explain NAFTA. Mexico wanted more than buying and selling, they wanted employment among other things. It started our manufacturing flight years before global trade beget so many multi-national corporations.

I won't try to overemphasize regulation as I realize it goes against free market ideals. I'd personally prefer a regulated market where IMO fraud necessitates oversight. And regulation isn't an always good scenario, even in my somewhat liberal perspective. Believe it or not, I realize that some of that far left shit is why we're here today.

I'm not against the free market and conservatism, they're core values of our realities. IMO, mechanisms in general aren't the good guy nor the bad guy. They're innate envelopes for the human element. Respective people comprise both the valued [and] corrupt elements that push these mechanisms away from each other. I realize Norquist subscribers want less regulation and maybe even none at all. I'll have to get a lot older and mellower to even say the word Grover.

Yeah the i pointed out Gram Leach Bliley a few posts above (while pointing out the faults i had with Clinton too ironically enough). It was more a rhetorical question but still begs answering. However there was some extreme conflicts of interest and insider deals that are still illegal and violate ethics laws. So there is grounds for criminal prosecution plus who knows what a proper investigation would unearth! Free trade was the final nail in the coffin of US industry and is why this is different then the great depression. Atleast we had industry to pull ourselves out there. Quantitative easing is a joke. Keeping our economy on life support and making the inevitable fall harder. While destroying the dollar. The days of dollar reserve currency are over. Seems like it'll be a doozy and our standard of living will suffer greatly.

Still i have to ask...what next? Without massive spending cuts (trillions) which we know will not happen. It's either inflate our way out or default and let the same banks that helped put us here buy Govt assets up during a firesale. Either way we are screwed as inflating our way out of a debt this massive would have some serious impacts on cost of living. People will be lucky to keep their job much less get a raise to help cover currency devaluation. This is why i'm for Ron Paul, his super libertarian views may be a bit much but he's the only one that will talk about monetary issues point blank.

 

[GrowBudsGrow]

I agree we need regulations to prevent fraud. But the problem is when regulations are used to monopolize an industry. There needs to be complete transparency to prevent this, not having a library of useless regulations to hide the fraudulent ones in and needing a team of lawyers to decode reality. I've kind of been thinking of a direct democracy as a solution to some of this non sense. We'd be a lot better off then we are now. Things will not change though, the establishment is well entrenched and the public is too engorged in American Idol as well as being victims of our horrible public school system. We need a time machine, and need to go back and snag up Jefferson or Andrew Jackson for 8 years.

 

[Babbabud]

If MJ is not a part of this discussion then it is purely political and will be closed.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]