Cutting Edge Solutions: DTW Advice

[Snow Crash]

Recently I have switched over to Cutting Edge Solutions nutrient system. I am using Micro, Bloom, Plant Amp, Mag Amped, and Uncle John's Blend.

The solution is under 4.0pH even when using a silicate supplement when I mix them all together. The Bloom and the Plant Amp, at higher levels, are definitely dropping the pH.

Their website says not to worry... But how can I not? The pH of this solution is a good 2.0pH more acidic than I'm "used to." Nowhere do they prepare you for this OUTRAGEOUSLY low reading.

My question is if other growers who use this product are seeing similar test results and are they using this acidic solution in their own DTW systems without treating it as suggested.

At this point it already looks like the plants are having a hard time with Potassium and Magnesium. Maybe I over did the Bloom and the Phosphorus a little early... I dunno, but the plants are not as healthy as I desire and that's a problem because I've been using other products without the issues.

I am growing in Roots Organics coco mix and the plants are 2 weeks into 12/12 at this stage. Temperatures top out at 80 degrees right as lights come on for the first hour during feeding, then it comes down to 75 where it stays most of the day before dropping down to 72 for the late evening and night period.

I have been using an EC of between 1.2 and 1.4 for every feeding for the last two weeks, usually working with excessive amounts of runoff (1:1) to bring down the runoff EC. It is balanced and there is no buildup. Runoff pH has been consistently dropping from 6.5 down to around 6.3 now. Nothing to worry about though.

Water is clean, tap that is rested, <0.08ec and 7.4pH at the start. Meter is a Hanna GroChek Combo EC/pH (blue one). The plants are on 2 feedings per day right now (breakfast and lunch) although today they got a dinner of Canna A+B plus some bloom and epsom salts at 0.8ec to wash out the 1.35 acidic feedings I for breakfast and lunch.

Should I worry about the pH being under 4.0 or should I just cross my fingers and hope these guys know what they are talking about? Do you guys see these numbers? I'm anxious about continuing bloom if this will be an issue like I expect it to be but if it has been tested and tried I'll be a trooper and give it a shot.

Thanks in advance. You gentlemen and ladies are most professional and I appreciate the experience you can share. Here are some pictures of the current grow and the plants as they sit now. You can see some of the damage that can best be described as nutrient burn but I think is related more to potassium shortages and some kind of imbalance (possibly phosphorus or sulfur). These plants aren't "sick" which is why I'm asking more of a general nutrient based question on this line here rather than advice for the plant in the infirmary. I know what's wrong with her... I just need to know if the CES is to blame like I think it is.

 

[desertsquirrel]

based on your threads at ********* its your profile.

140 p can lock out the k among other things. in general the profile is deficent in N, Ca, and S and high in p (which explains your pics).

5 ml micro and 20 ml bloom is to blame, not ces... move to more like 6-9/15-18. lil epsom couldnt hurt either.

 

[Cali C.C.K.]

After mixing the micro, bloom, uncle john's and mag-amp I let the plants feed for a day, then check the ph the next day 20min before feeding as you will need to add half of your plant-amp in your resi as it lowers the ph, let it feed then check your ph again the next day.

 

[Snow Crash]

based on your threads at ********* its your profile.

140 p can lock out the k among other things. in general the profile is deficent in N, Ca, and S and high in p (which explains your pics).

5 ml micro and 20 ml bloom is to blame, not ces... move to more like 6-9/15-18. lil epsom couldnt hurt either.

I am not feeding it at that level and have never stated that I am. Only that I could later on. What I did there was list the final ratios when using specific systems. With 6% Nitrate at 5ml per gallon this system is getting exactly as much Nitrogen as anyone using the 6/9 ratio of GH. Also, I am growing in Roots Organics Coco mix, which contains worm castings among other amendments. This provides additional nitrogen over time.

Up until this point I have been running more along the lines of 5ml Grow, 5ml Micro and 5ml Bloom plus the rest of their system. I had been experimenting with Hydroplex as a bloom initiator in the first week of 12/12. There is very clearly no shortage of nitrogen causing yellowing growth from the bottom up.

For the last 8 to 10 days the nutrient profile has been approximately
N: 130
P: 60
K: 130
Ca: 80
Mg: 40

Let me state that again. I am not doing what you think I am doing. Obviously the ratio you think I'm using would be poorly suited as a transitional system, and that's why I'm not using it. You took something I said a long time ago on another site and somehow twisted it to make it seem like I'm a dumbass. Good try. But no.

I am specifically looking for advice from other CES users. You say that having 70ppm of Nitrogen is a bigger problem than a <4.0pH? Right.... If you haven't used the system I just don't see how you could make concrete comments one way or another.

 

[Snow Crash]

After mixing the micro, bloom, uncle john's and mag-amp I let the plants feed for a day, then check the ph the next day 20min before feeding as you will need to add half of your plant-amp in your resi as it lowers the ph, let it feed then check your ph again the next day.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Coco.

Drain to waste.

Not a recirculating system.

Why is there so little information online about just how low this system is run?

Am I that much of a pioneer or does everyone else in the world think that using a 4.0pH solution is totally kosher and unworthy of mention?

 

[desertsquirrel]

im not interested in making you look any way. i used ces for over a year and had great results with it. i am simply trying to help.

As i stated on the other website (which was around 1-2 weeks ago) its the plant and mag amp that drops the ph that low and in a recurculating system the pH stabilizes in around 20-30 hours because of rapid uptake. imo this is the most desirable factor of the ces system.

In coco i could see it being problematic.

btw your new profile seems spot on.

 

[brotherindica]

Recently I have switched over to Cutting Edge Solutions nutrient system. I am using Micro, Bloom, Plant Amp, Mag Amped, and Uncle John's Blend.

The solution is under 4.0pH even when using a silicate supplement when I mix them all together. The Bloom and the Plant Amp, at higher levels, are definitely dropping the pH.

Their website says not to worry... But how can I not? The pH of this solution is a good 2.0pH more acidic than I'm "used to." Nowhere do they prepare you for this OUTRAGEOUSLY low reading.

My question is if other growers who use this product are seeing similar test results and are they using this acidic solution in their own DTW systems without treating it as suggested.

At this point it already looks like the plants are having a hard time with Potassium and Magnesium. Maybe I over did the Bloom and the Phosphorus a little early... I dunno, but the plants are not as healthy as I desire and that's a problem because I've been using other products without the issues.

I am growing in Roots Organics coco mix and the plants are 2 weeks into 12/12 at this stage. Temperatures top out at 80 degrees right as lights come on for the first hour during feeding, then it comes down to 75 where it stays most of the day before dropping down to 72 for the late evening and night period.

I have been using an EC of between 1.2 and 1.4 for every feeding for the last two weeks, usually working with excessive amounts of runoff (1:1) to bring down the runoff EC. It is balanced and there is no buildup. Runoff pH has been consistently dropping from 6.5 down to around 6.3 now. Nothing to worry about though.

Water is clean, tap that is rested, <0.08ec and 7.4pH at the start. Meter is a Hanna GroChek Combo EC/pH (blue one). The plants are on 2 feedings per day right now (breakfast and lunch) although today they got a dinner of Canna A+B plus some bloom and epsom salts at 0.8ec to wash out the 1.35 acidic feedings I for breakfast and lunch.

Should I worry about the pH being under 4.0 or should I just cross my fingers and hope these guys know what they are talking about? Do you guys see these numbers? I'm anxious about continuing bloom if this will be an issue like I expect it to be but if it has been tested and tried I'll be a trooper and give it a shot.

Thanks in advance. You gentlemen and ladies are most professional and I appreciate the experience you can share. Here are some pictures of the current grow and the plants as they sit now. You can see some of the damage that can best be described as nutrient burn but I think is related more to potassium shortages and some kind of imbalance (possibly phosphorus or sulfur). These plants aren't "sick" which is why I'm asking more of a general nutrient based question on this line here rather than advice for the plant in the infirmary. I know what's wrong with her... I just need to know if the CES is to blame like I think it is.

Hey Snow,

I've been a CES user for almost 2 years now, a very happy user. While I like their products, I'm not sure you need all of them together.

I use/d their Micro, Bloom, Plant Amp, Uncle John's Blend, and Sugaree. Plant Amp was nice, but I personally prefer Cal-Mag, ditched it after a test period during veg. Was nice for just a Ca supplement though. The Uncle John's Blend was a good product, helped increase terpenoid profile and resin IMO. Finishing my first run with Sugaree, an organic supplement similar to Uncle John's Blend, very impressed so far. Plan to continue to use it assuming things smoke as good as they look.


Not sure why your pH is so low. How long do you wait to measue pH & E.C. after mixing nutrients? How much per mL for each product are you using? Your E.C. looks pretty good. I tend to base feed around 1.0-1.2 in veg & early flower, peak flower around 1.6-1.8, and virtually never break 2.0 in flower even with most demanding strains.


I tend to go ~4-6mL per gal on Micro and ~6-9mL per gal on Bloom, depending on strain and time of growth. A touch of Cal-Mag for heavy feeders, ~2-5mL per gal (all strain dependent) and that's about all I use. Add a Multizyme, Floralicious plus, a PK boost/carb supplement and that's it. When buds set usually drop base feed ~25-50%, slowly bump PK.....later in flower drop base feed ~50%-75%, bump PK a bit more, wean down E.C., flush, then chop.


Hope you don't mind, few pics grown ^ as such.

 

[desertsquirrel]

CES webiste":


* NOTE ** Plant Amp™ contains organic compounds which have weakly bonded low pH properties which cause a temporary "false" low pH reading. Do not adjust pH up. The pH will raise naturally as the weak bonds breakdown and the plant uptakes the calcium in one or two days. There is no problem with watering straight away with the initially low reading pH.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Thanks in advance. You gentlemen and ladies are most professional and I appreciate the experience you can share. Here are some pictures of the current grow and the plants as they sit now. You can see some of the damage that can best be described as nutrient burn but I think is related more to potassium shortages and some kind of imbalance (possibly phosphorus or sulfur). These plants aren't "sick" which is why I'm asking more of a general nutrient based question on this line here rather than advice for the plant in the infirmary. I know what's wrong with her... I just need to know if the CES is to blame like I think it is.

IMO, it's either pH imperfections or you have an imbalance. Are you following a mix chart that recommends all the ingredients and strengths you're using?

I usually become accustomed to base nutes prior to adding supplements. I usually try one supplement at a time to see what happens. Any problems and the variables are narrowed.

Once I'm more familiar with an additive, I either use it in a balanced solution or hold off for specific applications. For example, I use Kool Bloom bud booster (2-45-28) by itself because it would fuck up anything else.

There was another thread a few days ago where the grower didn't like the calm reassurances of low pH, nor the results. Can't recall the title or I'd get you the link. Hope you get it worked out.

 

[Snow Crash]

I've been dealing with customer service trying to get some relief on this subject.

BrotherIndica: Thanks for the input. The real perpetrator here is the Plant Amp. I am not happy about the numbers but can't do anything about it if I choose to give their system an honest try. The solution I am mixing now is 5ml Micro, 8ml Bloom, 8ml UJB, 8ml Plant Amp, and 5ml Mag Amped. I'm also using ~5ml of Silica Blast. Even this stepped down solution registers pretty high on the EC meter and REALLY low on the pH meter.

Desertsquirrel: The advice they list is great for a recirculating reservoir but doesn't apply as well to a coco dtw I don't think.

CES representatives say that their solution at the lab mixes at 4.4pH. The solution I'm mixing is at 3.6pH after adding Silica Blast and watering it down to get the right EC. The representative told me to have faith in the system.

I'm really not sold on these nutrients. I will continue to use them until Friday. If I continue to see Potassium/Magnesium issue when using low levels of nutrients and safe temperatures then I will rest assured knowing that Plant Amp's low pH value is something to be concerned about in Coco DTW. In that case I will return the Plant Amp for General Organics CaMg+, which is 5x the concentration for 1/2 the price.

Honestly, I don't really have much of an issue for most of the products. Sure, the Mag Amped is watered down... The UJB at 0-0-2 offers only 66% of the potassium as Snow Storm Ultra does for the same price...

Just seems like all they'd need to do is add an extra 1% Ca to the Micro, and 1% Mg to the Bloom with an extra 1-2% Potassium and there'd be no need for this extra $75 in supplements and all this concern over the pH. To think that CES doesn't state on their mixing chart that using a solution as low as 4.0pH is a normal practice. If I'd known this upfront I would have never selected the nutrient line to begin with.

Hopefully this thread can serve as a warning and resource for those who follow.

 

[brotherindica]

I've been dealing with customer service trying to get some relief on this subject.

BrotherIndica: Thanks for the input. The real perpetrator here is the Plant Amp. I am not happy about the numbers but can't do anything about it if I choose to give their system an honest try. The solution I am mixing now is 5ml Micro, 8ml Bloom, 8ml UJB, 8ml Plant Amp, and 5ml Mag Amped. I'm also using ~5ml of Silica Blast. Even this stepped down solution registers pretty high on the EC meter and REALLY low on the pH meter.

Desertsquirrel: The advice they list is great for a recirculating reservoir but doesn't apply as well to a coco dtw I don't think.

CES representatives say that their solution at the lab mixes at 4.4pH. The solution I'm mixing is at 3.6pH after adding Silica Blast and watering it down to get the right EC. The representative told me to have faith in the system.

I'm really not sold on these nutrients. I will continue to use them until Friday. If I continue to see Potassium/Magnesium issue when using low levels of nutrients and safe temperatures then I will rest assured knowing that Plant Amp's low pH value is something to be concerned about in Coco DTW. In that case I will return the Plant Amp for General Organics CaMg+, which is 5x the concentration for 1/2 the price.

Honestly, I don't really have much of an issue for most of the products. Sure, the Mag Amped is watered down... The UJB at 0-0-2 offers only 66% of the potassium as Snow Storm Ultra does for the same price...

Just seems like all they'd need to do is add an extra 1% Ca to the Micro, and 1% Mg to the Bloom with an extra 1-2% Potassium and there'd be no need for this extra $75 in supplements and all this concern over the pH. To think that CES doesn't state on their mixing chart that using a solution as low as 4.0pH is a normal practice. If I'd known this upfront I would have never selected the nutrient line to begin with.

Hopefully this thread can serve as a warning and resource for those who follow.

I'm with Desert Squirrel on this one, Plant Amp is likely causing your initial pH reading. Now that you mention it, remember my hydro guy saying something about the pH dipping initially. I'll have to ask him specifically next time I see him.

You could try to do an 'honest try' with their whole lineup, but I don't know many individuals who run a complete lineup of any brand of nutrient. Not saying it can't be done, just isn't necessary in most circumstances. You could certainly pull a decent grow with just the Micro/Bloom.

I'm assuming you're in veg now? I'd ditch the Plant Amp, Mag Amp, and UJB for now. I'd run the Micro/Bloom base @ 5mL/8mL for now, with maybe a touch of epsom salt/cal-mag.

I've ran their nutes in RDWC (1st pic), various soilless, and coco (4th pic). Mix nutes, give an hr or so, measure pH and E.C.....always comes out good for me.

I'd recommend trying the Sugaree next time, compared to UJB. Used both and liking it more so far, good carb product and boosts Potassium. SSU may be a tad stronger, but it's total ingredient list isn't really known.....much like some of Humboldt County's other products like Gravity. After using it, makes me wonder what's really doing what. Can't really believe it's simply a Potassium supplement.....

Hope things work out for you.

 

[Snow Crash]

I'm with Desert Squirrel on this one, Plant Amp is likely causing your initial pH reading. Now that you mention it, remember my hydro guy saying something about the pH dipping initially. I'll have to ask him specifically next time I see him.

You could try to do an 'honest try' with their whole lineup, but I don't know many individuals who run a complete lineup of any brand of nutrient. Not saying it can't be done, just isn't necessary in most circumstances. You could certainly pull a decent grow with just the Micro/Bloom.

I'm assuming you're in veg now? I'd ditch the Plant Amp, Mag Amp, and UJB for now. I'd run the Micro/Bloom base @ 5mL/8mL for now, with maybe a touch of epsom salt/cal-mag.

I've ran their nutes in RDWC (1st pic), various soilless, and coco (4th pic). Mix nutes, give an hr or so, measure pH and E.C.....always comes out good for me.

I'd recommend trying the Sugaree next time, compared to UJB. Used both and liking it more so far, good carb product and boosts Potassium. SSU may be a tad stronger, but it's total ingredient list isn't really known.....much like some of Humboldt County's other products like Gravity. After using it, makes me wonder what's really doing what. Can't really believe it's simply a Potassium supplement.....

Hope things work out for you.

Oh, I'm sure it's the Plant Amp. No doubt about that. My concern is regarding the effect this reading will have on the coco. The only people I've spoken to who have managed to talk the system up are the retailers and makers of the stuff and I need something from someone less involved in profiting off my ass in any fashion.

The nutrient community here is a bit odd in that regard. A lot of people running GH lineup and mixing in a bunch of shit. I've had shooting powder recommended to me for this system but I prefer Big Bud dry.

I am 15 days into 12/12. I definitely need the Mag Amped. CES suggests against using the Epsom Salts, but I'm going to keep using them, I know my plants and this is one element I am not willing to sacrifice in coco. 5/8 is the basic formula right now, the EC still winds up a little high so I water it back down a touch.

I think experience with Plant Amp is more important to me. I just noticed the product is OMRI, which means it depends on organic action to break down the elements and provide them to the plant. I am working with Roots Organics Coco mix, and some other biologicals that were in the recycled coco mix.

I'm not going to be using any sweeteners this time around. I'm getting tired of the sweet, cheesy, skunky flavor that I've been getting across all my strains. I know the carbs aren't supposed to effect the plant much, but I'm using the UJB right now instead. I guess if I run out of UJB I could get the Sugaree as a replacement near the end of the grow. I found a place locally that has it.

The only problem I really have with this system, aside from the "scary" low pH, is that they have the nerve to call their Mag Amped a magnesium supplement and the Plant Amp a Calcium supplement. At the concentration of salts in the bottles it just isn't honest.

They may as well rename their system A, B, C, D, E, and F. Naming their 3-part system and supplements in the way they do mislead me into thinking they were a system designed for growers who were looking for control over their elements. CES is for growers looking for a mindless system that you must have faith in.

Kinda like religion.

 

[brotherindica]

Oh, I'm sure it's the Plant Amp. No doubt about that. My concern is regarding the effect this reading will have on the coco. The only people I've spoken to who have managed to talk the system up are the retailers and makers of the stuff and I need something from someone less involved in profiting off my ass in any fashion.

The nutrient community here is a bit odd in that regard. A lot of people running GH lineup and mixing in a bunch of shit. I've had shooting powder recommended to me for this system but I prefer Big Bud dry.

I am 15 days into 12/12. I definitely need the Mag Amped. CES suggests against using the Epsom Salts, but I'm going to keep using them, I know my plants and this is one element I am not willing to sacrifice in coco. 5/8 is the basic formula right now, the EC still winds up a little high so I water it back down a touch.

I think experience with Plant Amp is more important to me. I just noticed the product is OMRI, which means it depends on organic action to break down the elements and provide them to the plant. I am working with Roots Organics Coco mix, and some other biologicals that were in the recycled coco mix.

I'm not going to be using any sweeteners this time around. I'm getting tired of the sweet, cheesy, skunky flavor that I've been getting across all my strains. I know the carbs aren't supposed to effect the plant much, but I'm using the UJB right now instead. I guess if I run out of UJB I could get the Sugaree as a replacement near the end of the grow. I found a place locally that has it.

The only problem I really have with this system, aside from the "scary" low pH, is that they have the nerve to call their Mag Amped a magnesium supplement and the Plant Amp a Calcium supplement. At the concentration of salts in the bottles it just isn't honest.

They may as well rename their system A, B, C, D, E, and F. Naming their 3-part system and supplements in the way they do mislead me into thinking they were a system designed for growers who were looking for control over their elements. CES is for growers looking for a mindless system that you must have faith in.

Kinda like religion.

Certainly not one to hype something that doesn't deserve it, that being said, CES makes some damn good products. A long experienced individual tried to sway me over for some time, blew him off repeatedly over months, and eventually tried the 'cheap GH knockoff' and was VERY pleasantly surprised. I know several others who rock their nutes and also produce some FIRE results.

You could use Big Bud, Shooting Powder, Koolbloom (powder/liquid), MOAB, Bloombastic, the list just continues....they basically do the same thing. I've used Koolbloom & Bloombastic with very satisfying results.


Have any pics of the plants looking for Mg? Not doubting you, just seems a tad early for Mg curl @ 14 days of flower.


Sweeteners can be a tricky bunch, carbs shouldn't alter flavor, but some solutions add a bit of a generalized flavor. I usually carb boost with UJB, or Sucanat when in soilless, and have never noticed a generalized flavor impact on any strain ran.

Concentration can be an topic of discussion for many nutrients....hell, pH up/down concentrations by GH/Advanced/Mad Farmer are all over the place yet all do the same thing. Their Plant Amp & Mag Amp are just that, separate Ca and Mg supplements.


Sorry you're not having great results, but really hard to say it's just the nutrients. Mindless system you say.............I'd say far from it. You might want to look at Advanced Nutes for that!!

 

[Snow Crash]

Here are some pictures of what I am interpreting as low pH. Not all the leaves look exactly like this, as it set in several days ago now, but this is what I consider to be the mid-point before losing the leaf margins to necrosis.

Notice the chlorisis and it's location. Also notice the tell-tale curl of the leaf margins which would to indicate heat stress if the temperatures were ever consistently over 75. As it stands, the temps are in good shape so it is more likely the result of a potassium deficiency. As the problem progresses it will then resemble the necrotic curl typical of phosphorus deficiency. All of these are telltale signs of a low solution pH. My runoff still sticking around 6.3pH is the only reason I am still using this stuff. The moment that changes...

Some might suggest raising the humidity to handle these symptoms. I have been tossing this idea around because it's the summer time and up here in OR I don't have to worry about the mold as much this time of year. If this is a pH issue, or cation issue, then the humidity is just a bandanna wrapped around the wound when what I really need is stitches.

So far the damage doesn't seem to be getting much worse. I was concerned about the stomata maybe being blocked up with salt from a foliar of Mag Amped I'd done a when I saw the problem start so I ran a clean water foliar spray yesterday at lights on.

 

[orange juice]

130 ppm K and 80 ppm Ca is too low for flower in my experience with coco drain to waste. Leaf sides curling up like that can be from Mg , which also seems a bit low. I usually run with 200ppm k, 110ppm Ca, 60-65ppm Mg in coco drain to waste, plants love me.

 

[desertsquirrel]

OJ nailed that imo... ill post some pics of my coco w/my profile later when i have a sec.

 

[Snow Crash]

The problem with trying to push the calculated levels higher then that is that the EC increases to a level that is too high.

I've been running the entire system true to itself for about 20 days or so. Thus far all my concerns about low pH have disappeared. It does mix up pretty low but it doesn't seem to make a difference when added to the media and broken down. I found that by running my water pump with the aerator turned on for about 2 days that the pH actually balanced out over 7.0 in the solution.

Running about 4ml of micro and 9ml of Bloom has been a good mixture when running 10ml of Plant Amp, 10ml of UJB, and 5ml of Mag Amped. The supplements add about 550uS/cm so it is important to keep the Micro/Bloom level around 700 to 900uS/cm at this point in the grow to keep the EC in range. Later on in flowering I'll just increase the Bloom to bring the PK levels up.

My runoff pH has actually been coming up, not down.

The problem was with a kelp extract I was using at full strength in combination with some higher than ideal temperatures during the transitional stage. Just pissed them right off. They are doing great now though.

What I've noticed already with this system is an early appearance of resin all over the sugar leaves and even up and down fan leaves at just over 3 weeks into flowering. More than what I consider "normal" at this point. The UJB is probably not bad stuff. I also have noticed that the salty buildup on the outside of the smartpots when I used Canna Coco A+B are totally gone. The outside of the planters look as clean as they would be right out of the washer.