The myth, of the high P myth?

[YosemiteSam]

This thread, and the thread "List your current nute mix" (ex., posts here and here)

Looks good. Are the Mn, Zn, etc., chelates? If so, with what chelating agents?

What about Ni, Se, Co, etc.? Do you know the Ni and Se content (if any) of the compounds you use? Or do you plan to provide Ni, etc., separately?




Go for it. I like how often you test whatever you wish. Messing plants up can teach us a lot, often more than not messing them up. I agree with your idea that boosting B and Zn during period of high growth, like pre-flowering and early-bud set.

[/QUOTEh]

My micros are not chelated at all. I run pH in the 5.5-5.6 range...kind of the opposite of the AN approach Deep down I kinda think synthetic chelates cause more problems than they solve.

Far as I know I am not providing Ni,Co, Se at all.

 

[spurr]

Good point Mullray. I think he already adds citric acid, so he is getting a bit of chelation there, and other organic acids (as well as citric acid) exudates from roots (and some microbes) offer another source of citric acid.

I agree with you on Ni. I assume at least one compound salts YS uses may have Ni as an 'impurity'. That is the case with G.H. FloraMicro, which is where my mix gets the listed Ni in my chart (as well as Se and the heavy metals Pb, Cd, Hg, As; I think Ni may be regarded as a heavy metal, but I'm not sure).

 

[spurr]

FWIW, I just came across this study while looking into citric acid as chelating agent for Ni. I don't have the full text yet, but I'll get it soon.


Effect of citric acid and EDTA on chromium and nickel uptake and translocation by Datura innoxia
Liliane Jeana, François Bordasa, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Cécile Gautier-Moussardb, Philippe Vernayb, Adnane Hitmib and Jean-Claude Bollinge
Environmental Pollution, Volume 153, Issue 3, June 2008, Pages 555-563

Abstract

EDTA and citric acid were tested to solubilize metals and enhance their uptake by Datura innoxia, chosen because of its ability to accumulate and tolerate metals. Two application modes were used on an industrial soil contaminated mainly by Cr and Ni. The results showed that citric acid was the most effective at increasing the uptake of Cr and EDTA for Ni. These results are consistent with the effectiveness of both chelants in solubilizing metals from the soil. The translocation factor (TF) of Ni was 1.6- and 6.7-fold higher than the control, respectively, for one and two applications of 1 mmol kg−1 EDTA. After two applications of 5 and 10 mmol kg−1 citric acid, the TF of Cr increased 2- and 3.5-fold relative to the control. Whatever the concentration, the application of EDTA modified the plant physiology significantly. For citric acid this was only observed with the highest dose (10 mmol kg−1).

Chelant effectiveness in increasing chromium and nickel uptake by Datura innoxia is the result of the increase in translocation versus negative effect on plant physiology.

 

[Avenger]

Also for the next fertigation I am adding Dutch Master Gold Range Silica for the first time, it's supposed to be monosilicic acid, not silicon dioxide

Where are you getting this dubious info from?

 

[spurr]

The label of the product: 5% monosilicic acid derived from potassium silicate.

For the record I too am/was feel a bit dubious about that claim of H4SiO4 (monosilicic acid) vs SiO2. However, D.M. brags about using a 'different' kind of Si, that is more plant available than SiO2, so I assume they are on the up and up.

Whether H4SiO4 is better than SiO2 in terms of plant uptake I am unsure, it could be, considering plants use (take up) Si as silicic acid (H2SiO2), but it also could not be. I am planning on researching this issue today ...

FWIW, here is an interesting link to a single web page I just found; it discusses how to make SiO2, H2SiO2, etc.: http://material.xxn.org.uk/doku.php?id=material:silicon

 

[spurr]

That is what I thought too, at first. And I still think it's possible, but it's also possible it's H4SiO4. The only reason I really care is if it's SiO2 or H4SiO4 is the ppm of K and Si will be wrong if I get the chemical wrong.

Would they be allowed to claim they have 5% H4SiO4 if it's really SiO2? I don't know, but that is something I suggested in a post about this product when I first bought it, re "playing tricks with label laws".

Right now you and Avenger have no proof it's not H4SiO2, and I have no proof it is H4SiO4; we all three trust D.M. equally, I got it because it was either that or Rhino Skin from A.N. I call that being stuck between a rock and a hard place. The onus is on the claim maker, so D.M. really should prove it is what they say it is, I'm sure one could get a lab to run some tests but I'm also sure it's not cheap.

I would like to know what is true, whether it's monosilicic acid or silicon dioxide. That is what I plan to look into today, re monosilicic acid in plant science.

If either you or Avenger have any info I would love to read up, thanks.

 

[Avenger]

http://www.pqcorp.com/literature/nsfundam.pdf

http://www.snowpure.com/docs/resintech-silica-iwc99.pdf

 

[spurr]

It looks like saying "5% monosilicic" is fancy words for "watered down" ...

I knew it was watered down because it takes 7.5 ml of D.M. Silica to provide the same ~29 ppm of Si as from 2.5 ml Pro-TeKt; however, I didn't know it really was simply watered down and label laws were molested by D.M. At least I think the ppms I calculated are still correct.

http://www.cal-water.com/pdf/Silica_scaling_Remediation.pdf

 

[tester]

Spurr:
If you find something regarding organic forms of Si please let me know. There are at least two common and widely available plant (dandelion and horsetail and most grasses) that contains high amounts of Si, the question is how well can it be used by the plants.
A simple tea might provide more Si than these commercial products.

Plants take up orthosilicic acid from the soil, which is transported through the plant in this form, and is then mostly deposited in cell lumina and walls as solid amorphous silica deposits known as phytoliths.
Therefore, in plants and plant-based foods, Si is present as insoluble phytolithic silica, but intestinal uptake proceeds following
luminal hydrolysis to orthosilicic acid (Reffitt et al. 1999).

http://www.deakin.edu.au/dro/eserv/DU:30009138/mcnaughton-provisionaldatabase-2005.pdf

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

 

[spurr]

Tester,

I have read at least two papers on this topic, and the form of Si in fertilizers is the important part. Fertilizers with SiO2 provide Si via silicic acid, after conversion from SiO2 into H4SiO4 (I think; see below). The key part is the Si has to be reactive, which is the case for silicon dioxide as: SiO2 + 2H2O -> H4SiO4.

What is a bit odd is in most all works I have read it's stated "silicic acid" is the form of Si taken up by most plants. Yet in your quote above it's stated that orthosilicic acid (aka monosilicic acid) is the form taken up by plants, not silicic acid. I suspect they mean silicic acid, because there seems to be some ambiguity on the formula of silicic acid. Ex., silicic acid is a synonym for monosilicic acid and orthosyilicic acid; and vis-a-versa.

We know silicic acid is hydrated silicon dioxide[1,2], and it's also known silicic acid is referred to as H4SiO4 [2], H2SiO3 [3] (that one seems unlikely), and H2SiO2 [4]. So in the link you provided above, I am unsure what silicic acid means, formula wise. I haven't read the PDF yet, does it list the formula of silicic acid?

If I was to make an assumption, I would suggest silicic acid in reference to plant available form, is H4SiO4. I think so because that is the form made from Sio2 and water[1], and is the form in the quote you posted above, as well as from other sources I have read.


[1] http://www.cal-water.com/pdf/Silica_scaling_Remediation.pdf

[2] http://medconditions.net/silicic-acid-h4sio4.html
From Merck Index, 11th ed

Silicic Acid (H4SiO4):
Hydrated silicon dioxide that occurs in nature. It is insoluble in water or acids except hydrofluoric acid.

• Synonym: silicic acid (h2sio3), silicic acid.
• Terms Related to Silicic Acid (H4SiO4)

[3] http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB7431304.htm


[4] http://www.fiz-chemie.de/infotherm/html/molpages/00/41/mol4130.html

 

[spurr]

@ Tester,

In your quote the author wrote: "Therefore, in plants and plant-based foods, Si is present as insoluble phytolithic silica", it just dawned on me they by phytolithic silica they mean SiO2, I think. And if so they are correct, plants don't absorb SiO2 through roots, but conversion from SiO2 into H4SiO4 (orthosilicic acid) is pretty 'easy' AFAIU [1]. Ex., when SiO2 is mixed with water, say pouring some Pro-TeKt into the rez.

However, I wonder if Pro-Tekt has no water added and D.M. Silica does, and that is the difference between the two (re SiO2 vs H4SiO4).

[1] http://www.cal-water.com/pdf/Silica_scaling_Remediation.pdf

Oh yea, when silicic acid (after being taken up by roots and translocated) is converted into amorphous silica for use by the plant, it's a form of non-crystalline SiO2 I think. Even tho I generally dislike Wikipedia, they have a good entry on phytolithic silica and plants: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Phytoliths#Development_in_Plants

 

[YosemiteSam]

Spurr:
If you find something regarding organic forms of Si please let me know. There are at least two common and widely available plant (dandelion and horsetail and most grasses) that contains high amounts of Si, the question is how well can it be used by the plants.
A simple tea might provide more Si than these commercial products.



http://www.deakin.edu.au/dro/eserv/DU:30009138/mcnaughton-provisionaldatabase-2005.pdf

That one came from slightly out of the box.

I like the way you think tester.

chunk some lavender in there with the dandelion and you got quite the tea.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Ummm let me see. well they claimed Alar was 100% safe, organic proprietary phospholipid technology and humatic isolates Jeez could they be full of it??? Hmmm???

Only if they put out a mag called Rosebud.

Kinda like the fact they are bikies though. What could possibly be wrong with that?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Just like Wall Street...the American way.

 

[Avenger]

The way I understand it, the characteristic that we should be looking at for our soluble sillicate is the ratio of SiO2:K2O.

The lower ratio products when in solution have silica species distribution with high monomer content and low numbers of complex structures. As the ratio moves higher, the species ditribution in solution moves towards reduced monomer content and higher numbers of complex structures.

Plants take up monomeric silicic acid, so it would stand to reason the more monomeric silica content in solution, the more likely to have monomeric or ortho silicic acid in solution.

Also worth noting is the lower the ratio SiO2:K2O the more alkaline the product will be.

That is why I chose AgSil 16H, as it has an SiO2:K2O ratio if 1.6, while most hydro store sillicate products are 2.1-2.8 ratio.

 

[spurr]

Spurr:
If you find something regarding organic forms of Si please let me know. There are at least two common and widely available plant (dandelion and horsetail and most grasses) that contains high amounts of Si, the question is how well can it be used by the plants.

Look up JayKush in the organic soil sub-forum, he's a mod there and a master of FPE (Fermented Plant Extracts). He has written about, and done, FPE on horsetail for Si (IIRC). He's a very nice and great guy, and very smart too; he puts what he writes to use on his land, etc.

 

[spurr]

The way I understand it, the characteristic that we should be looking at for our soluble sillicate is the ratio of SiO2:K2O.

The lower ratio products when in solution have silica species distribution with high monomer content and low numbers of complex structures. As the ratio moves higher, the species ditribution in solution moves towards reduced monomer content and higher numbers of complex structures.

Plants take up monomeric silicic acid, so it would stand to reason the more monomeric silica content in solution, the more likely to have monomeric or ortho silicic acid in solution.

Also worth noting is the lower the ratio SiO2:K2O the more alkaline the product will be.

That is why I chose AgSil 16H, as it has an SiO2:K2O ratio if 1.6, while most hydro store sillicate products are 2.1-2.8 ratio.

Great post, thanks. According to my math, the Sio2:K20 ratio of D.M. Silica is 1.56 and H4SiO4:K20 ratio of D.M. Silica is 2.5. Notice anything wrong with my math below?

D.M. Silica is 2% K2O and 5% H4SiO4 (AFAIK orthosilicic acid, aka monosilicic acid, aka silicic acid)

• SiO2 has 46.74% Si
• H4SiO4 has 29.22% Si
  • (5*0.2922)/0.4674 = 3.12 SiO2
  • 3.12 SiO2 / 2 K20 = 1.56

 

[Avenger]

more likely it is 5% SiO2. the analytical test's don't give results for H4SiO4. So their label is questionable.

5/2=2.5

SiO2:K2O = 2.5

but it's just a SWAG on my part.

1.6 is the lowest ratio SiO2:K2O I've ever seen from any reputable supplier.

 

[spurr]

"SWAG"?