Question re: PM & its contagiousness

[mad librettist]

PM is NOT systemic and doesn't need any special chemical to kill it. PM is a fungus that lives on top of the leaves and spread via spores. Fungi is not systemic, but a host !

The first part is right. PMs are not systemic. But let's get the terms right-

1)some fungi are systemic and actually grow inside the plant/animal/other fungus
2)the host is the "victim", in any parasite/host relationship, or the partner in a symbiotic relationship.


edit: 3) some "normally" non-systemic fungi can become a systemic infection when they meet the wrong host, or when natural defenses are down. Candida (Thrush), a yeast that causes infection in humans, can become systemic thrush in immunocompromised individuals, for instance HIV patients with full blown AIDS.

 

[silver hawaiian]

FWIW, .. Temps are mid-high 80's, sometimes low 90's.. RH is around 38-40%.

Is that considered a PM-friendly environment?

Thanks guys for all your input and help!

 

[mad librettist]

FWIW, .. Temps are mid-high 80's, sometimes low 90's.. RH is around 38-40%.

Is that considered a PM-friendly environment?

Thanks guys for all your input and help!

no, that is drier than it is in my parts, and I only ever see it outside, and then almost always on plants that are shaded in the morning or on a slope facing the wrong way.

you have it even easier than me, and I keep a canopy that would likely be a disaster in CC2U's garden.

 

[CC_2U]

silver hawaiian

The temps are a too high as you already know but the good news is that you have the RH dialed in.

I'll take high-temps over high humidity always.

CC

 

[GoneRooty]

I think cc2u has done more than enough to convince me that environmental controls work for you and for me because we have an environment less conducive to PM in the first place.

I am careful about bragging that I have never seen PM on my indoor crops, and that I have always coexisted with it outside. it's obvious I have had more luck than skill.

Speaking from someone else in the NW with CC2U & CC1, this place is a breeding ground for PM and other molds/mildews. There is so much PM on outdoor plants, and spores in the air, the only thing to do up here is fight it from getting a foot hold. It's not a matter of IF you'll get PM in the NW, but when, and how well you handle it.
Follow CC2U's advice and you'll be taken care of.

 

[silver hawaiian]

mad librettist, CC_2U, MIway, GoneRooty, LittleAmsterdam, and all..

Thanks so much for the quick response & input! That's what's great about this site - a wealth of information.. Errr, a wealth of PEOPLE, with wealths of information!

I'll admit it, there are times I'm too lazy (or in too much of a hurry, as is the case here) to search the forums, teh Goog, etc, .. In those times especially, y'all are the best!

 

[silver hawaiian]

silver hawaiian

The temps are a too high as you already know but the good news is that you have the RH dialed in.

I'll take high-temps over high humidity always.

CC

Great to know! The temps may come down a smidgen once I get the central air fired up, and that may help tug down that RH a bit.. Otherwise, I've got the dehuey running full bore just outside the tent, damn near at all times..

 

[gaiusmarius]

great subject!

been using some fenel based stuff on vegging plants with pm, but am very interested in more natural ways.

whats this Lactobacillus can some one link a thread with this info or explain it here. it might be worth having a good pm thread stickied even, specially natural remedies should be made easy to find.

 

[Epiphyte]

What up, SH? I just have a couple of questions, mostly for CC2U.

How does neem seed meal affect the microherd...if it is a fungicide, does that destroy an active rhizosphere?

Second, I know dyno-gro has multiple kinds of silica. Potassium silicate is ok in organic gardening but what about the other silicon in dyno gro?

Phyte

 

[CC_2U]

great subject!

been using some fenel based stuff on vegging plants with pm, but am very interested in more natural ways.

whats this Lactobacillus can some one link a thread with this info or explain it here. it might be worth having a good pm thread stickied even, specially natural remedies should be made easy to find.

gaiusmarius

The commercial product almost always referred to is EM-1 (Effective Microbes) from TeraGanix.com based on Dr. Higa's work at Tokyo University in the 1980's. It's also available from Mighty Microbes (who thinks up these names anyway?). It's this product that is generally used to make the fermented 'compost' called Bokashi.

Another way to acquire lactobacillus cultures is by using Gil Carandang's method of making a Fermented Plant Extract (FPE) using a culture of rice water and capturing the local strains in a process the he calls Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms (BIM) described in this article that he wrote.

Carandang has a book titled Grow Your Own Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms and Bionutrients In Natural Farming that is available at Amazon.com for $9.99 in the eBook (Kindle) format.

Both his article and book provide a number of formulas to extract various elements and compounds from plant material using rice water and later milk to create his lacto serum.

The last method of capturing and using lactobacillus cultures is what Jaykush writes about and promotes. This process is simply to take plant material (like comfrey or stinging nettles, et al.) and put them into a tank of water and over the course of a few weeks the natural floating lactobacillus and those found on the plant itself will serve as a mild fermentation agent - far less in strength than using EM-1 and in many situations this is preferable depending on what specific element or compound you're wanting to extract and use.

Something like that..........

CC

 

[CC_2U]

What up, SH? I just have a couple of questions, mostly for CC2U.

How does neem seed meal affect the microherd...if it is a fungicide, does that destroy an active rhizosphere?

Second, I know dyno-gro has multiple kinds of silica. Potassium silicate is ok in organic gardening but what about the other silicon in dyno gro?

Phyte

Epiphyte

The science-oriented poster, Spurr, did some looking around about 6 months ago on the subject of neem seed meal and endo spores specifically - no negative effect.

RE: Liquid Silica

I'm not sure what other products you might be thinking of as far as liquid Silica (SiO2) - the only one I'm familiar with from Dyna-Grow is their Pro-TeKt product.

CC

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

I did some research and wanted to present factual evidence about Powdery Mildew

I found a GREAT website from The University of Edinburgh, Institute of Cell and Molecular Biology

They have an article about biotrophic plant pathogens which includes Powdery Mildew. Here is a few extracts from their website and a link for further reading
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/biotroph.htm

"these fungi grow between the host cells and invade only a few of the cells to produce nutrient-absorbing structures termed haustoria. By their feeding acitivities, they create a nutrient sink to the infection site, so that the host is disadvantaged but is not killed. This type of parasitism can result in serious economic losses of crop plants, and in natural environments it can reduce the competitive abilities of the host; indeed, a few biotrophic pathogens have been used successfully as biological control agents of agricultural weeds.

All these fungi grow superficially on the host, only penetrating the leaf epidermis."


GREAT Website and information about one of the things we all dread !

 

[silver hawaiian]

I did some research and wanted to present factual evidence about Powdery Mildew

I found a GREAT website from The University of Edinburgh, Institute of Cell and Molecular Biology

They have an article about biotrophic plant pathogens which includes Powdery Mildew. Here is a few extracts from their website and a link for further reading
http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/biotroph.htm

"these fungi grow between the host cells and invade only a few of the cells to produce nutrient-absorbing structures termed haustoria. By their feeding acitivities, they create a nutrient sink to the infection site, so that the host is disadvantaged but is not killed. This type of parasitism can result in serious economic losses of crop plants, and in natural environments it can reduce the competitive abilities of the host; indeed, a few biotrophic pathogens have been used successfully as biological control agents of agricultural weeds.

All these fungi grow superficially on the host, only penetrating the leaf epidermis."


GREAT Website and information about one of the things we all dread !

Great find GA. So (and I'm asking those more knowledgable on this than I, .. CC_2U?) ..

Am I correct in the interpretation that it is NOT systemic, and therefore, affected leaves can be "clipped off" and that's a solution?

(Now that I'm typing that out loud, maybe that's not right. Doesn't seem like it'd be that easy. If it were, would we all be here discussing this?!)

Halp

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

A systemic disease means affecting the entire organism &/or living within it. PM is not exactly like that and a systemic fungicide would be a harsh approach to kill such a small fungi.

 

[LittleAmsterdam]

Clipping leaves may diminish the look but the spores still exist. A light spray like I or CC has recommended and changing the environment is best !

 

[silver hawaiian]

Clipping leaves may diminish the look but the spores still exist. A light spray like I or CC has recommended and changing the environment is best !

Oops. Meant to click on rep, not quote. But since I'm here..

GREAT stuff, guys. I really can't thank y'all enough for the serious information you guys come up with.

Rep for all!

 

[gaiusmarius]

thanks for that reading matter CC_2U. i didn't finish it all yet, but i'm wondering how you actually use the lactobacillus against pm? i suppose you spray the plants with a solution of it? what ratios are recommended for spraying young plants. would be really nice to have a good natural way to get rid of pm.

 

[CC_2U]

GM

The usual suggested application rate (at least from the EM-1 folks) is .75 teaspoon to 1 gallon of water. I think that's a little anemic and would go with 1 teaspoon.

To get the PM arrested (immediately) the commercial nurseries around here often use Potassium Bicarbonate or Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) [cite]. The most important thing with these is the freshness. Buy a new box every other week if necessary. The commercial packs like Milstop, Remedy, Armicarb 100 (the baking soda people), et al. are usually packed in 4 lb. boxes and the individual pounds are in cryovac (sp?) packages to insure freshness.

Use 1 tablespoon to 1 gallon of water and spray at the end of the light cycle. By the next day you should see only some residue from the spraying and the PM will be gone. Spray your plants with clear water and if you're concerned you might want to put a towel on top of the soil or whatever media you're using. This applies to both the initial spraying as well as the removal of the residue.

Now you can begin to use the lacto formulas to keep things straight.

Are you able to find Stinging Nettle or Horsetail Ferns in your area?

Here's a photo of Horsetail Ferns which are usually found in areas near rivers, ponds, lakes, etc.

 

[gaiusmarius]

i know a few patches of stinging nettles locally, not sure about the horsetail ferns, but i think i have seen some of them too locally.

 

[guest2012y]

I have had great success with lactobacillus on PM. What I really want to know is...are the organisms actually consuming the fungus as food? These guys eat anything and that was the assumption when me and CC came up with the lactobacillus idea. If it eats dead cells of plant and animal origin,would it eat the live cells of a parasitic fungus.......it appears to be so.
Remember that all PM/botrytis types are not the same...some act very differently than others. Meaning they respond differently to humidity and temps that are the triggers for growth.