The myth, of the high P myth?

[DonkDBZ]

Agree with YS. Donk are you using Spurrs recipe and adding Big Bud, and Bud Candy and Si K? What medium are you in? Looking good.

I am running 80-90% chunky perlite and 10-20%coco. In 20 gallon smart pots. I watered twice a day by hand. Then once i got off my ass I made the drip system. Once I did that and set watering to 9 times a light cycle they blew up.

Spurr want do you think about .5 m/ gallon of pure flowers to your recipe later bloom. Since its really a K boost and SAR.
The turf grass studys show it takes a year for the P to be use able. So would it mess up the ratios?

 

[spurr]

There is some NH4 in the Yara Liva CaNO3. It ain't much but it is enough to work for me. Plug it into the CH nute calculator and it will tell you exactly how much.

Ah, okay. FWIW, it would probably be good to use about, or just below, 10 ppm NH4 in your mix if it's mostly 120 ppm of NO3, currently. However, if you want to keep N at 120 ppm (implied as 'total N' being ammonicial N ppm plus NO3 ppm), then using say 110-112 ppm NO3 and 8-10 ppm NH4 may be a good goal.

With 120 ppm total N, 112 ppm NO3 and 8 ppm NH4 are a good ratio of 14.

I think down to maybe 10 (or possibly even 8), as a ratio for NO3:NH4, with total N not over ~130-140 ppm, might be good for plants under high irradiance and high Co2.

 

[spurr]

Spurr want do you think about .5 m/ gallon of pure flowers to your recipe later bloom. Since its really a K boost and SAR.
The turf grass studys show it takes a year for the P to be use able. So would it mess up the ratios?

It could be helpful for K and SAR like response, as you wrote. The only problem I could think of, would be when Phi hinders uptake of Pi, which lowers P uptake of plant. But IIRC, Phi hinders Pi uptake mostly when Pi is in short supply (deficient) in the first place, so that shouldn't really be a concern.

Go for it.

 

[tester]

Ha, no worries. I took the math I presented on the last page mostly from Tester. I was using a different method than what I assumed to be Tester's method, and his method he uses is cleaner so I started using it, too.

I held the record of having the most Fs in a year in math so don't take me granted

 

[DonkDBZ]

It could be helpful for K and SAR like response, as you wrote. The only problem I could think of, would be when Phi hinders uptake of Pi, which lowers P uptake of plant. But IIRC, Phi hinders Pi uptake mostly when Pi is in short supply (deficient) in the first place, so that shouldn't really be a concern.

Go for it.

You and your abbrieviations ..what is IIRC?

your recipe right now has me at
139N 57P 179K 127Ca 70Mg
adding .5ml pure flowers adds 24P 30K
so 139N 82P(which 24 of can be ignored) and 209K

curious if the Jaz and Phosphites will help each other like Jaz and GA3

 

[Morphote]

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.

M.

 

[spurr]

Ha, no worries. I took the math I presented on the last page mostly from Tester. I was using a different method than what I assumed to be Tester's method, and his method he uses is cleaner so I started using it, too.

I held the record of having the most Fs in a year in math so don't take me granted

Lets hope that was in 1st grade, otherwise you're a genius

 

[spurr]

You and your abbrieviations ..what is IIRC?

Ha, sorry. I thought it was common knowledge, what Morphote wrote is correct. Using "IIRC" is an easy way to say I think what I am writing is correct, but it could be incorrect (if I am remembering incorrectly).

Others I use:
AFAIK = as far as I know
AFAIU = as far as I understand
FWIW = for what it's worth
HTH = hope that helps
... and a few more I am sure ...

your recipe right now has me at
139N 57P 179K 127Ca 70Mg
adding .5ml pure flowers adds 24P 30K
so 139N 82P(which 24 of can be ignored) and 209K

Looks good. One thing to point out is Phi (phosphites) do get converted into Pi (phosphates) by microbial exudates and by media pH, ex. This process can take days or weeks, and longer. Ex., in high pH soil, such as used to grow some fruit trees, Phi will convert into Pi more quickly/more efficiently due to chemical reaction from soil pH. If you use Phi (Pure Flowers) as a media drench, you would be adding Pi to media overtime, as the Phi is converted into Pi; how much Pi I am unsure.

Roots will take up Phi, which can compete with Pi for uptake by roots, thus lower P in the plant, due to reduced Pi uptake. By adding Phi you can (will) be increasing Pi in soilless solution, albeit not by much, and the process can take weeks; esp. because the media pH will be < 7-7.5.

If you want to induce SAR and provide more K, but not use Phi, you could boost the potassium silicate product (ex., bring Si to ~50-60 ppm which will boost K well) and use something known to induce SAR, such as chitin (from chitosan). That said, if you use Pure Flowers I don't think you would be unhappy; I just think there are better routes to the same goals you have.

One thing, AFAIU, is that phosphites do not induce SAR per se, instead Phi activates' what is known as Shikimic Acid Pathway (SAP); and so does Pi (phosphates). That pathway is upstream of both the salicylic acid and jasmonic acid pathways, IIRC, and thus upstream of SAR induction (from salicylic acid pathway).

Here is a bit of good reading:

"Topic 13.3: The Shikimic Acid Pathway"
A Companion to Plant Physiology, Fifth Edition
by Lincoln Taiz and Eduardo Zeiger
http://5e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=23


"Wine quality, organic viticulture and vine systemic acquired resistance to pests"
by Adam Morganstern on Nov 11, 2008
http://www.organicwinejournal.com/i...d-vine-systemic-acquired-resistance-to-pests/

• I do not agree with everything in that article, and it's written from a bio-dynamic stance, but it does have some good info.

"Affect of Nutri-Phite®, phosphite and phosphate on the Shikimic Acid Pathway (SAP)"
by BiaGro Western, makers of Nutri-Phite
http://www.biagro.com/nutri_phite/np_html/np_content_faq_pop2.html
​

curious if the Jaz and Phosphites will help each other like Jaz and GA3

I am unsure. I have not read anything on that topic, however, Phi can (does) 'activate' the Shikimic Acid Pathway, which IIRC is upstream of the jasmonic acid pathway. So there could be some type of interaction, hopefully unlike salicylic acid (i.e., salicylic acid pathway) which has negative cross-talk with jasmonates (i.e., jasmonic acid pathway).

In the case of GA3, IIRC, it is used by plants (in part) in the formation of trichomes. So there is some type of synergy between exogenous jasmonates and GA3, upon trichome desnity. I am unsure such would be the case of Phi and jasmonates; I would guess Phi won't help jasmonates in terms of trichome density.

 

[analogue]

There is some NH4 in the Yara Liva CaNO3. It ain't much but it is enough to work for me. Plug it into the CH nute calculator and it will tell you exactly how much.

I am not quite the "detail" guy you are. I rely on CH and tester for the mental "heavy lifting". They are far better at it than I.

The N for Yara CaN03, it's 7% ammonium 93% nitrate.

edit, supplemental:

One gram dissolved in one gallon of water yeilds 41 ppm nitrogen and 50 ppm calcium (source: CHN).

 

[spurr]

Thanks analogue for that info

 

[spurr]

A few more (current) pics from today, re low P and trichomes:

The low P must not be hindering trichome production too badly, looking at the progress on these plants. IMO/IME lower P doesn't hinder trich production, but I do value YS's opinion, so I'm open to the idea it may.

Right now it's only week ~3.5 into flowering for my plants, day ~25. I started flowering on about 2011-16-05, and there are already flies sticking to leafs and buds loaded with trichomes

I have never grown GrapeGod before, but so far, most of the strains of that cultivar (I germinated 20 strains of GrapeGod all from seed) are producing copious trichomes. Granted, some of the strains of GrapeGod are pretty damn poor; but those that are good are really good (at least so far). There are a few issues I have with the GrapeGod cultivar from NextGeneration seeds, but so far most GrapeGod strains I am growing are making me happy (but I could be happier); I just hope they start packing on weight soon!

Please forgive the quality of pics, they are from my phone this time.

In the pics below, the leafs are not 'standing to attention' as much as they normally do, because they got foliar sprayed last night and I increase RH to ~80-90% when foliar spraying. I turn off the HIDs about two hours early and I start to increase RH, then after about two hours in high RH (~80-90%) I spray the plants, and leave the RH high all night, until the next 'morning'. That tends to make the leafs kind of 'lazy' the next day, but is also the best way to foliar spray with ions and organic substances.

FWIW, here is what I normally use (most recently) as foliar spray every two weeks (give or take a few days):

• I would also use Metalosate amino acid chelate Ca, Mg, and a few others, but I do not have any Metalosate at present

(a) 0.1 ppm triacontanol (I may increase this to 1 ppm; TRIA increases rate of photosynthesis very much, as well as growth and yield. But the increase for the two latter is not as drastic as the increase in rate of photosynthesis).

(b) 2.5 ml/gal CalMag Plus (for CaNO3 and MgNO3, both of which have POD of ~53% RH. The mix of cations and anions, as well as low(ish) POD, means greater amounts of Ca, Mg and NO3 are absorbed by leafs and used by the plant.

(c) 10 ml/gal fulvic acid (but higher is also fine; used to help increase Chl A and/or B, as well as increase leaf absorption of some ions)

(d) 5 ml/gal humic acid (to act as a "humicant" (re "hygroscopic" agent) to slow evaporation of water from leafs by pulling moisture from the air (re RH), which increases leaf-contact time in solution, and thus absorption of ions and organic substances).

(e) 5 ml/gal cool processed kelp extract (for PGRs, hormones, ions, vitamins, carbs, etc.)

(f) citric acid (to lower pH to ideal range for foliar of ~6.5-8; not lower than 6. As well as to increase openness of stomata and other benefits. See this post of mine for more info: link)

(g) ascorbic acid (to lower pH to ideal range for foliar of ~6.5-8; not lower than 6. As well as to increase openness of stomata and other benefits such as acting as antioxidant against endogenous H2O2 in leafs. See this post of mine for more info: link)

(h) good non-ionic surfactant, most (all) NISs from hydro stores suck big time; and those that do not suck big time are pretty useless ...
​

Pics:

 

[DonkDBZ]

Those pics suck.......gosh

you did not list how many milligrams of vit C and citric acid you used?


got some lights on day 14


my friend grew the same strain and his node spacing was not nearly as good. he used AN sensi, B-52 and I forgot what else

 

[spurr]

Those pics suck.......gosh

Yea I know, I didn't have my camera today.

you did not list how many milligrams of vit C and citric acid you used?

I don't measure it, I just add a little and check pH. If I had to guess, I would say I use 250-500 mg/gal, but that's only a guess.

got some lights on day 14


my friend grew the same strain and his node spacing was not nearly as good. he used AN sensi, B-52 and I forgot what else

Nice, looking good. I have never used AN and never will ... that's all I have to say about that

 

[spurr]

@ Donk,

What is the canopy RH and canopy temp of your room?

 

[DonkDBZ]

50-55% RH and leaf temps near bulb 83-85 rest of plant 79-81. I have been keep a eye stuff closest to bulb for signs of heat stress.

 

[spurr]

The N for Yara CaN03, it's 7% ammonium 93% nitrate.

edit, supplemental:

One gram dissolved in one gallon of water yeilds 41 ppm nitrate nitrogen and 50 ppm calcium (source: CHN).

From your chart above, wouldn't that be ~38 ppm NO3 and ~3 ppm NH4? For a total N level of ~41 ppm and Ca of ~50 ppm.

 

[analogue]

cut and paste fatigue , my bad.

From your chart above, wouldn't that be ~38 ppm NO3 and ~3 ppm NH4? For a total N level of ~41 ppm and Ca of ~50 ppm.

Correct.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I forget what thread we were discussing B in. Anyways my micro package provides the following:

Fe 2.5 ppm
B 1.0
Mn 2.4
Zn 1.2
Mo 0.01
Cu 0.6

So I am already at 1 ppm B.

I am seriously considering a B/Zn foliar feed one time to support stretch and possibly increase bud formation
http://www.news.albionminerals.com/...losate-trial-on-bud-formation-in-nordmann-fir

Yes...I know that trial is probably in soil with deficiencies. Yes...I know if I go too far all kinds of bad shit is gonna happen.

But one of these days I gotta know...you know???

 

[spurr]

I forget what thread we were discussing B in.

This thread, and the thread "List your current nute mix" (ex., posts here and here)

Anyways my micro package provides the following:

Fe 2.5 ppm
B 1.0
Mn 2.4
Zn 1.2
Mo 0.01
Cu 0.6

So I am already at 1 ppm B.

Looks good. Are the Mn, Zn, etc., chelates? If so, with what chelating agents?

What about Ni, Se, Co, etc.? Do you know the Ni and Se content (if any) of the compounds you use? Or do you plan to provide Ni, etc., separately?

I am seriously considering a B/Zn foliar feed one time to support stretch and possibly increase bud formation
http://www.news.albionminerals.com/...losate-trial-on-bud-formation-in-nordmann-fir

Yes...I know that trial is probably in soil with deficiencies. Yes...I know if I go too far all kinds of bad shit is gonna happen.

But one of these days I gotta know...you know???

Go for it. I like how often you test whatever you wish. Messing plants up can teach us a lot, often more than not messing them up. I agree with your idea that boosting B and Zn during period of high growth, like pre-flowering and early-bud set.

 

[spurr]

@ YS,

FWIW, something I am sure you know, but, something I figure I should mention for others; if the only NH4 source in your mix is from CaNO3. If so, and as analog pointed out, 1.3 gram/gallon CaNO3 gives ~3 ppm in working solution (fertigation water). Thus, if your total N is 120 ppm, the NO3:NH4 ratio is ~39. May I suggest you try to reduce that ratio to < 20 and > 10; especially because you use Co2.