Smart_Alec
New member
I hate to sound like a smart dummy but does the question here have to do with manipulating pH to make nutrients more or less available?
Why change PH to 5.8
- Thread starter Hammerhead
- Start date
can you refraze the question im not clear on what your asking. Im not trying manipulate anything. I want to use the same ph AS YOU WOULD YOU IN A SOIL GROW. some here have said that wont work
from what I understand, the reason that we ph the nutrient solution to 5.8 so that after watering into the neutral 7ph coco the runoff ends up around 6.5 basically achieving the ph buffering as well as providing nutrients throughout the ph range of 5.8-6.5 also bare in mind the cation exchange that goes on in coco, P gets locked up pretty easily which imho makes small variations/fluctuations in nutrient ph totally acceptable if not beneficial when trying to release the p. I tend to ph to 5.8 through the first 4-5 weeks of flower then i'll start ph'ing to around 6.1 til' flush. hope that helps and maybe was more directed towards your original question? im sure you'd kill straight coco bro
is that not the same for soil??? it is at 7 when we start. We then feed a ph-6.3-6.5 so go a bit higher 6.8.
COCO is 7 just like soil is coco a natural PH buffer??. Even if I used 6.5 with no buffers I should be able to grow with no issues. I also think I will see a improvment in root mass and over all health.
COCO is 7 just like soil is coco a natural PH buffer??. Even if I used 6.5 with no buffers I should be able to grow with no issues. I also think I will see a improvment in root mass and over all health.
im sure coco must buffer the ph somewhat, I honestly haven't picked up my ph pen at all during my current run...things have looked better at times but for the most part my ladies are just as happy as usual. my nute mix typically lands in the 5.9-6.3 range without adjustment
yeah see thats fine. I think people are so caught up in this must use Hydro with coco out of context. You may also use coco in a tradition grow with out any repercussions.
i.love.scotch
Active member
I think using water at a ph of 5.8 is only important if you are using liquid nutes in straight coco, in other words, if you are running it as hydro.
Unamended coco fed with liquid nutrients will not contain many microorganisms that help with nutrient uptake and doesn't 'hold' nutrients within itself very well so having the PH just right for the plants is very important.
On the other hand, if you are going to amend your coco with organic matter and it is going to be a living soil environment then I would say you can disregard the 5.8 PH rule.
Since the coco will be full of micro organisms and aggregates of organic matter the availability of nutrients will be naturally balanced within the soil ecosystem.
As I said before, some of the cation exchange properties of coco may differ from peat though so you might have to tweak how much of certain amendments you add to your mix.
Unamended coco fed with liquid nutrients will not contain many microorganisms that help with nutrient uptake and doesn't 'hold' nutrients within itself very well so having the PH just right for the plants is very important.
On the other hand, if you are going to amend your coco with organic matter and it is going to be a living soil environment then I would say you can disregard the 5.8 PH rule.
Since the coco will be full of micro organisms and aggregates of organic matter the availability of nutrients will be naturally balanced within the soil ecosystem.
As I said before, some of the cation exchange properties of coco may differ from peat though so you might have to tweak how much of certain amendments you add to your mix.
Basically it's because of nutrient availability. Calcium is available in the 5.8 range in hydro (comparable to coco) while it is almost above 6.5 in soil. Also there is a difference for the other nutrients as well. Here is a handy file that someone on this forum passed on to me.
basically it's like Donald said, if you are not planning to make use of the coco's hydroponic growth supporting attributes, you might as well just add 20 to 30% coco to your normal soil mix. trying to feed plants in coco purely with organics will be difficult as the coir is alive too and also using up nutrients. over the years there have been a couple of members that wanted to use coco with all organic amendments and teas and while most of them seemed to have some success for the veg phase, when it came to flowering phase it didn't work so well.
the reason for the lower ph in hydroponics is because it allows the plants to take up the nutrients faster. now in a controlled environment with perfect nutrient solution this works tip top. but if you go at such low ph levels in soil you will allow the plant to take up things that you don't necessarily want it to take up.
so if we use a coco specific nutrient at ph between 5.6 and 6.1 we give the plants optimal amounts of all the nutrients it needs to keep up with the faster hydroponic growth rate. which is only faster because the lower ph allows directer/faster nute uptake. which will be a problem much quicker if you give the wrong nutes, then it would show in earth. the nice thing about the coco is that you have all the advantages of hydro with non of the disadvantages of hydro.
again if you just want some root benefits, just add 20% coco to your mix. although i'm always willing to be proven wrong, have learned over the years that there are more ways then 1 to skin a cat. so do let us know how your tests in this project turn out.
I will. even If I chose to lower the pH range to 6. I still think an all organic grow using coco instead of peat will work. The problem I see is there is no data for me to start from.
I have no clue if I should start at 6.5 or lower. I do not mind doing this. I will be using all Organics including Nutrients. It will not be 100% Organic as some of my line is not.
I use the complete line of Botanicare products including there coco.
My Current grow I have 3 MSS X SB BX1 from head seeds. There are 2 plats that are massive 2x larger then what IM USE TO GETTING. There is the 3rd plant that was grown in 100% fflw soil and is nowhere as big as the other 2 are. This is growing in a 50/50 mix in a 10g pot. I have never had 2 plants grow so fast and so large in such a short time. This is what got me interested in the coco addition. I want to do a 75% coco 25% soil and then 100% coco.
2x 600w hps A/C COOLED ALL IN 10G POTS. The roots in the larger plants are much more dense and allot more of them. The srd plant is in perfect condition but is half the size. I used 6.5 ph for all of them.
I have no clue if I should start at 6.5 or lower. I do not mind doing this. I will be using all Organics including Nutrients. It will not be 100% Organic as some of my line is not.
I use the complete line of Botanicare products including there coco.
My Current grow I have 3 MSS X SB BX1 from head seeds. There are 2 plats that are massive 2x larger then what IM USE TO GETTING. There is the 3rd plant that was grown in 100% fflw soil and is nowhere as big as the other 2 are. This is growing in a 50/50 mix in a 10g pot. I have never had 2 plants grow so fast and so large in such a short time. This is what got me interested in the coco addition. I want to do a 75% coco 25% soil and then 100% coco.
2x 600w hps A/C COOLED ALL IN 10G POTS. The roots in the larger plants are much more dense and allot more of them. The srd plant is in perfect condition but is half the size. I used 6.5 ph for all of them.
kaappikapina
Member
why wait?
why wait?
I pop my seeds in rockwool cubes and immediatly when they are coming up, I put seedlings to 6 liter pots with 30% of hydro rocks and 70% coco. From day 1 (24h light) i set drippers to water 4 times a day. After 10 days i switch 12/12 and set drippers to water 3 - 4 times a day. They grow like weed from hell
Never veg more than 10-14 days. Why to wait for enough roots? I treat coco like hydro from day 1 and plants love it.
why wait?
I pop my seeds in rockwool cubes and immediatly when they are coming up, I put seedlings to 6 liter pots with 30% of hydro rocks and 70% coco. From day 1 (24h light) i set drippers to water 4 times a day. After 10 days i switch 12/12 and set drippers to water 3 - 4 times a day. They grow like weed from hell
Never veg more than 10-14 days. Why to wait for enough roots? I treat coco like hydro from day 1 and plants love it.Some have observed exactly what GM disclosed in this comment, that is, a conventional amendment content subbing out coco for peat has shown to be inadequate feed through late flower.
I'm not trying to explain why this is the case, just acknowledge that the same quantity of amendments don't have the same results when the base material transitions from peat to coco.
I don't think this is a reason to abandon the project--just a caution that you may have to generate a new recipe that works. That is: it's not a simple substitution in practice. That is: your harvest may be compromise until you figure out how to adjust.
I'm curious to see what happens. Find a solution, and other gardeners might follow your lead...
My concern with straight coco (especially the Botanicare long sieve variety) is that it would not be that well suited to host the type of bacterial populations that you need to make a semi-organic grow work. Generally speaking bacteria have a hard time processing brown type ligneous material - which coco is. Such material typically favors fungi, at least initially.
Anyway if you are going to try this it seems like you would want both inoculate the coco with bacteria and find a way to maintain that bacterial population. For inoculation you can use a compost tea. A green mulch (grass clippings, weeds, bubble hash leavings, fresh male plants, ect) would be helpful in maintaining the bacterial population and also in retaining moisture.
Pine
Anyway if you are going to try this it seems like you would want both inoculate the coco with bacteria and find a way to maintain that bacterial population. For inoculation you can use a compost tea. A green mulch (grass clippings, weeds, bubble hash leavings, fresh male plants, ect) would be helpful in maintaining the bacterial population and also in retaining moisture.
Pine
prowler
Member
Sort of a plee:
Please those who do not believe that this could work hold your horses and think twice before posting that this does not work "just because coco" is hydro. I most definitely want to see this happening and i hope that everyone shares their knowledge on this matter to get this up and running. Denial leads to ignorance and open eyes has always proven to achieve results and deeper understanding of cultivation. Love this topic already.
Share your knowledge - do not discourage just because of the "our way" -mentality.
Please those who do not believe that this could work hold your horses and think twice before posting that this does not work "just because coco" is hydro. I most definitely want to see this happening and i hope that everyone shares their knowledge on this matter to get this up and running. Denial leads to ignorance and open eyes has always proven to achieve results and deeper understanding of cultivation. Love this topic already.
Share your knowledge - do not discourage just because of the "our way" -mentality.
I pop my seeds in rockwool cubes and immediatly when they are coming up, I put seedlings to 6 liter pots with 30% of hydro rocks and 70% coco. From day 1 (24h light) i set drippers to water 4 times a day. After 10 days i switch 12/12 and set drippers to water 3 - 4 times a day. They grow like weed from hell
you water coco 4 times a day, kool! so many way to do things. I get better growth in the begining letting em dry a little or they dont grow.
sounds like you have it dialed, can you show some pics?
IF, funny we disagree, I think it will work fine
pinecone I think coco holds microorganisms as good as peat. Funnyhow some plants get nitrogen from the air esp. during a lightning storm. sometimes microbiology cant be added but has to be cultivated patiently, i.e. aquaponics, where it can take months and bottles dont help. I was told by a guy hired by gh to test subculture in a govt. lab, that it was devoid of life and the same organisms they claim to have are available for free.
Ah... I don't think we disagree at all.
I was corroborating gaiusmarius observation, namely:
Specifically, when I said this:
I could have expanded more. In instances where proven recipes for amended-water-only-soil-organics substitute various grades of coco for the peat and vermiculite, the plants were starved early into flower.
There are a number of reasons why this might have been the case.
Perhaps it was related to the distinctive electro-chemical profile of coir, and the substrate bonded a relatively large quantity of minerals.
Perhaps the growth rate was sufficiently accelerated do to a lighter, more porus (high O2) media that there was inadequate mineral content in the pot to sustain un-supplemented feedings.
Maybe it was a combination of the two.
I think amended water-only-coir grows have massive potential for positive outcomes. I just caution that it may require some (lots) of supplemental teas (earlier than you think) until the starting recipe/process is figured out.
The plant below was grown in with coco substituted for peat in a organic soil(less) recipe (i.e. amended coco). Yield was not great (a lack of sufficient stretch - genetics), but it was healthy throughout the flower cycle. So yeah - it can be done.
Pine
You may be correct. I don't actually know as I don't have a microscope and have never grown in straight coco. You would probably concede that peat breaks down much faster than coco though. To me the faster breakdown time of peat suggest that it is more available to most bacteria than coco.
Pine
Maybe there just needed to be more mysterious PVC pipe in the amended coco run.
Very mysterious PVC pipe.
I heard that PVC and some molasses fixes everything.
Very mysterious PVC pipe.
I heard that PVC and some molasses fixes everything.
There is 3" of perlite on the bottom. The PVC pipe is for gas exchange as there are no drainage holes in the container. I got the idea form Soma's book.
Pine
Sam87
Member
Pay attention to this post man, Pinecone's dead on with it.
The key point here is that if you are going to heavily amend your coco, then you are no longer "growing in coco", so to speak. Building it up like that makes it an active soil mix. These PH guidelines for coco are only to be followed when you are growing in an inert medium, like straight coco, or coco/perlite.
For what you want to do, you need to be hanging out around the organic soil subsection, not here. Follow all the same rules for peat (min 25% hummus, good aeration, don't overwater), and remember to use a tad bit less lime. You will still want some though, as the plant can swing the medium's PH down as it takes up food through the roots.
