Easy&fast to build up and tare down & very cheap - Vert

[CannabisFox]

Hey.

From 15th Sept. till 15th Dez. I have space to grow.
I'm so desperate that I decided to use that time window for a quick run! I just have to do a decent vert grow..... and thats my only chance for the next 2-3 years.
Maybe its crazy...maybe it is....

Currently im running a seed grow with 4top44 one of em is of course a male one. It'll be finished in about three weeks. Then ive got lot of uni staff to do, maybe a month of hard work and vacation for 2 weeks which will end ~15thSept. Then I want to start building up my system and get the seeds to sprout.

Seeds will need a week to hatch, and get another 2 weeks to grow before I'll put them in the system. In there they get flipped to 12/12 immediatly and will need ~7 weeks flowering.
1+2+7=10; 10-12=2; drying can still be done after the 15th Dez. That leaves 2 safety-weeks.

I have a Veg Chamber, ok more like a veg sarcophagus, with two 4' 30watt lsr's for the seeds where they can sprout and get vegged till 10'' or so

Now its getting interesting.

I have not much money. Maybe i can invest 200-300 euros. Good thing is seeds are free and I have some grow stuff.

I got:
2 x 225 m3/h (Typ. LTI - RVK 125E2-A1) fans + suited aircleaners
1 x E40
1 x 15w fan

I want:
1 x 600w HPS + ballast = 90€
Bloom Nutrients
Lots of pots

The idea for the flower room is, to build a wodden(octagon) framework, with chains hanging vertical at the sides. I want to use those chains to mount my pots with!
Image 2 chains hanging down, between em is a 6,5 bucket with soil and one plant. It is hanging there with two hooks fixed at upper corners.
Each chain will be fixed at the frameworks top and bottom to not swing around that hard. The bucket will be cease swinging at an 45°angle which can be adjustet with some extra weight at its bottom.
Behind those chains with buckets I want to secure reflection leaf.
This shall work as a colloseum flowering room.
Hps in the mid, with fan below on the ground, and my two LTI's sucking the hot air out of there.

There are lot of things I need to calculate. At least watering is easy done as I want to handwater them in soil every day and dont need an irrigation plant.
Soil should be the most cheapest but approved "composana" which I want to mix with perlite(30%). Mineral nutrients for veg and flower.

I will dial the numbers of pots which will be able to hung in there and here comes the clue with ma seeds. Of course half of them will be male thats why I want to veg another half of the amount i vegged first and while the first ones will turn our there gender in the flower chamber the next ones get ready to be get hung in there too.... So in the End I will have used 75% possible space.
Of course I have to dial out the growth while they flower so that they all have the needed space.
1/3 of em will have 1-2 less flowering weeks... but thats akzeptable.
The good thing about this system will be that its pretty easy to change plants. hang em in or out or elsewhere just like i want to.



Unfortunatly I wont be able to be aware of the RH(cause I wont have a lung room and/or money for a strong humidifier) so i need to focus on optimal temp through my LTI's... Heres some questions for you fellow reader...

Will those two fans(225 m3/h each) be enough for that project? I think yes.. but I've never done a 600w grow..
The internal diameter shall be ~ 4' but im not sure about the height! Maybe someone can give me an advice here too..

Sure thing that the framework needs to be fuckn stable when i want to hang all those buckets with plants in there.. but that should be possible to build.

So long, thanks for reading. I know it is some time till this is going to start but I want to be going through it in theorie so .. if you have an ideas that would help or items I will need just post em!

I will use this thread in future to post progress in theorie and at sept. in praxis.

Greetz
Fox

Ps: of course im going for max yield. arg... maybe I'll find out a way to control humidity cheap..
so I'll have 600w, monocropped, lots of plants, hoping for perfect climate, and optimal nutrients(less is more...). gimme ideas what else can be optimized or thought of

 

[megayields]

Good luck dude..sending you positive vibes from Cali!

 

[CannabisFox]

Thanks for your post. Rly need positive vibes to get this project done...Cause I wont get any from where I live..

So, I did some math calculating the size of my octagon.

Internial diameter 1,2m thats ~4'.
Each eigth will have an inside angle of 45° the other ones are (ofc) 67,5°(cause every triangle has total 180°, maybe you can actually learn from reading here*lol*).
The inner sides will have ~2'(0,6m), so the outer side will have ~1,5'(0,46m) (thats because: a= sin alpha / sin beta * b).
As I took the internial diameter of ~4' like Heath has taken for his (awesome) flooded tube szenario I decided to go with 4 vertical rows of plants in the system as I read from other vertgrow-experts(thats 2*4pots each eight * 8 = 64 plants). Every pot has a size of ~8''(20cm, theyre ~1gallone[3,5l] pots btw). Each plant should become around ~16'' high so between each plant(vertical) will be ~8'' spacing and at the bottom im leavin 8'' extra space for venting.
9*8''=72'' (or ~180cm) height of the system.
I dialed out that each pot can get about ~5pounds(,6kg) weight(wet with plant inside) that makes an total weight of ~40pounds per eights[20kg] and a total weight of ~320pounds(160kg).
Well already knew that the frame has to be strong.

Ok, enough from mathematik. I have uncovered some problems.
1) I will need tons of medium
2) When I really start from seed on I'll have to put in twice as much plants cause half of them will be male.....
To engage those problems I'll need a cheap medium which will maybe go with a watering system(fortunatly I have an ~250gallone/hour[1000l/h] pump which I can use). Need to check out if I can water about 120plants from a height of ~72'' with it...

Next two ideas are about how to access the plants.
I can either do it with removable reflection folie or I put the reflection between the buckets and the plants (which can grow through holes in it). Both is possible...

Next ideas are about the climate. I can use the room where the system will stand in as a lung room exhausting the odor cleaned air into the room and regulate the temps operating the windows. The RH i could then modify with large wet sheets...

Next step is to calculate the price of all those items I'll need(inlcuding drip system for watering, 120pots, temp/RH measuring, medium[maybe rockwool])...


So loooong

 

[crunkyeah]

Looks like you really know your stuff CannabisFox.

I'm currently trying to figure out what angles I'm going to have to cut to make a 5 sided figure to support 2 x 250w CMH bulbs. How big inner and outer diameter are, total surface area, etc etc. But I am struggling, geometry was never my forte haha.

I really commend those insane vertical grows with 600w HPS with 4 rows of plants, they tend to really pull in the weight, personally I won't ever run that many plants at one just because of the risk involved. I plan on having 5 plants one on each side and I'll rotate the plants every 3 weeks and get a perpetual harvest going.

In your case if you can't grow for years then this many plants is well worth the risk.

Just curious, have you thought about using 2 x 400w CMH bulbs? Would be a bit more electric but I hear they run cooler and you also get the benefit of more height from the extra bulb. Then you could put them both in a cooltube and be good to go. I hear the CMH run cooler too, so that may be helpful.

As for the other concerns, I hope you get them worked out! Here, I don't have to worry about humidity as there isn't much. All I would be concentrated on is getting fresh air to the buds(as they will be thick), and making sure pests don't find their way into the grow. Also, odor control is definitely very important too.

I'll be watching once ya get up and running!

 

[HushemFlupskluk]

All sorted out! Can't go wrong

Make sure you sprout the seeds in special soil. 1st 2 weeks no ferilisers.

 

[CannabisFox]

@crunkyeah

Most important is to know that plants cant use as any lumans as you may give them! 40-50w per sqft is a good rule to dial with.

Im only doing this grow once, thats why I am not really concerned about how many plants Ill have....

Your idea of 2 400w +ct may be good, but as I have not much money I'll stick with ma 1 600..

@HF
You know my style *lol*
I think I'll do it all in rockwool, cause its the most cheapest medium I can find. I'll need to check out what Ill have to care for when using it....


Here im gonna start the list of needed items:
1 x Steinwollflocken Grodan 20kg Sack (~110gallones of rockwool[just 35€!!!])
1 x Min-Max-Thermo-Hygrometer digi.
1 x Pumpsprüher 1,5 l
1 x 600 W Sylvania GroLux HPS
1 x 600 W VSG HPS Vossloh
5 x Schwarz-Weiß-Folie 2m breit lfm.
60 x Vierkanttopf 3,5 l, 15 x 15 x 20 cm
179.50 EUR
+ 1 x Digital ph & es measurement device70€
249,50€

the other 60 buckets needed I'll try to buy cheap at abey

I need to check out my watering system... it already has some drippers water pipes and stuff... but certainly not enough for 120plants...
Good news is I have a friend whos got a 600w MH which i may use for some verg time in the system.
So other costs only will be through the wood metallic angles chains and that stuff. but i think i can stay around 300€ (and if not.. I wont stop this project if Ill have to pay 400€...)

edit: love ebay, just found a seller who sells zillions of cheap cheap cheap buckets of all posssible scale ^^

 

[crunkyeah]

How does the 50w/sq ft work when you're rocking vertical? When you've got hundreds of cubic feet of surface to work with how do you know every section is getting ~50w?

I'm fairly sure at 18" from my bulbs I should have 10000 lumens to the plant material, but as to knowing whether or not its 50w? Not sure how that works.

I hope you can keep under the target price, that's always a nice thing in the end!

 

[CannabisFox]

If I have 600W which can light out best
600/50= 12sqft(3,6m²).
if I have a surface of
1,8m * 0,46m * 8 = 6,624m²(~22sqft)
mh.. the plants grow some bit into that space so I probably have to calculate with
1,8m * 0,3m *8 = 4,32m² (~14sqft)
Now lets scale from 50w/sqft to 40w/sqft:
600/40 =15sqft(4,5m²)

underlined the important numbers.
I think Im ok with the size of my system... And yea I think it should work as an orientation, because its a rule of thumb.

for optimal w/sqft I read both 40 and 50. to dial out the perfekt numbers you will need to know the lumens at each scope and how many cannabis is able to use.
I knew a site where all was perfectly written down ... but I lost it

PS: hope I didnt messed things up with those different units *lol*

I'll try to scetch up what I think my system will look and work like. there are some crazy ideas involved which I have never read of before.. but hopefully they will work for my grow...

edit: found that site I meantioned
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/yor/lightres.htm

 

[crunkyeah]

Wow, that website you linked has tons of information on it! When I get the chance I'll have to really dig through all the info there.

As to the math part of it, you lost me haha. I understand the math portion correctly, I just don't understand what values are what. More specifically is the 1,8m your diameter? I'm still not sure what 0,46m and 8 are representing.

Kinda bugs me that the US is still using standard, the whole world should just be metric. It would make things soo much easier to understand for the average joe!

I'm curious to see how your design will take shape, maybe that will help clear things up for me.

 

[CannabisFox]

Hey, thanks for your answer!

Ok, just calculated most about lumens at my space. Still it is only most not all *sigh* but I'll try to write it down as logical as I can!

Maybe some soft electric?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3-rCjgIey4

Im calculating things everytime for just one eight of the system. Because in my octagon every eight is just like the other one. (Thats why I multiplied with 8 above.)
The heigth of the system will be 1,8m. So to calculate the m² I dial 1,8 * the outer side, which will get smaller when the plants grow into the room.

600w have 90000lumens. So each W sends out 150l. On one eight, the used wattage is 600w / 8 = 75w.
So the hps is sending 75w*150l= 11250lumens on each eight of the system.
The bulb *****Stopping here******

I cant calculate this whole shit.... because I do not find a formular which helps me to calculate with a source of light which is NOT a point. And I'm not good enough in maths to make it up by my own ^.~

Here is te calculation with a point light source. found on:
http://www.lumenrechner.de/

Well at an approx distance of 0,4m an light angle of 22,5° and 11250lumens. We have 565665lux which is ~52551fc.
On the YOR site is meantioned the cannabis can use max 9000fc.
We cant get those two numbers together because the 52551fc are for an point light source.. the light source of an ndl is about 10cm. So we can veryyyyy vague say the the fc at the plants will be 52551fc / 10 = 5200fc + the overlap effect(top of the ndl also sends out lumens to the bottom plants) it has to be something around 9000fc

Before I go crazy this is the end of calculating. I'll stick with the rule of thumb and what i read from experienced growers

Going for some sketching next .... its time for some pics inside here.

 

[CannabisFox]

its an octagon o.o
bottom one eight top view last pic one eight side view

One of my seed plants !

Vertical side of one eight. When I draw it it seems way to high...Numbers from 1-12 are for maximum pot carriage. But I will scale it down to at least 10.

 

[bobblehead]

So nice to see something hand-drawn... ha ha... So many CGI mock ups... Personally I did the old pencil and paper drawing as well before building. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Do you have a mother vegging already to provide the 150-200+ cuts you're going to need to fill this thing? That was my biggest mistake looking back. I should have been on top of my veg before I even built the flower room.

I'm waiting... so get building!

 

[crunkyeah]

That makes a lot of sense! You cleared things up really well, thank you!

I was under the impression that you were using a circle as opposed to an octagon. The pictures definitely helped seeing what you are planning. It is also a lot easier to follow too!

I too agree that 12 per side is a bit crazy, personally I would go with ~8 per side, and top them a bunch to create lots of bud shoots. As opposed to having 12 single cola type plants. That way you still maintain the same canopy and also have lower plant numbers. The only trouble here is the extended veg time for the topping(which you may or may not have). I don't know how ya have your veg set up but even 80 clones if you go with 10 seems pretty crazy. I got a ~4 ft chocolope mom going right now and she has roughly 15 main tops on her, I couldn't even imagine trying to coax 80 out of her, hah.

Btw, your seed plant looks real healthy! How many beans you think she'll give you?

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Seeds will need a week to hatch, and get another 2 weeks to grow before I'll put them in the system. In there they get flipped to 12/12 immediatly and will need ~7 weeks flowering.

I am extremely confused by your timeline.

You hope to force flower two week old seedlings, and have them finish seven weeks later?

It's my understanding that most plants from seeds need a couple of months to reach 'maturity', that is, to flower in their shortest possible time.

I have read many reports about seeds running 12-12 from germination requiring 14 weeks to flower, while later generations of clones from the same material finish in the more typical 8-10 week period.

I would hate to see you put time and energy into a build, and find yourself only half way through flower before it's time to cut and dry.

Do you have access to clones?

That would take many variables out of the plan.

 

[bobblehead]

I am extremely confused by your timeline.

You hope to force flower two week old seedlings, and have them finish seven weeks later?

It's my understanding that most plants from seeds need a couple of months to reach 'maturity', that is, to flower in their shortest possible time.

I have read many reports about seeds running 12-12 from germination requiring 14 weeks to flower, while later generations of clones from the same material finish in the more typical 8-10 week period.

I would hate to see you put time and energy into a build, and find yourself only half way through flower before it's time to cut and dry.

Do you have access to clones?

That would take many variables out of the plan.

lol... good point... I was just gonna let the OP find out on his own that things don't go as planned, and you just have to let them do their thing... It's good to have a plan, but be ready to adapt... or perish. I don't know of any seed, other than autoflowers, that will finish in 7 weeks, with a 2 week veg... Not gonna happen imo.

 

[CannabisFox]

ty for your posts !

So nice to see something hand-drawn... ha ha... So many CGI mock ups... Personally I did the old pencil and paper drawing as well before building. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Do you have a mother vegging already to provide the 150-200+ cuts you're going to need to fill this thing?

thx for joining! I have big respect for your person and DHF! learned a lot thx to you.

I am not satisfied with ma drawings.. but it seems they are able to show some of my conceptionell ideas

Btw, your seed plant looks real healthy! How many beans you think she'll give you?

All of them may give me more then I could ever deplete the important thing is that they turn out 'healthy'.


"The Seed-Problem"
Yo.
I orientated my seed idea by one of Heath' grows. His rack system with (female) seedlings. He also startet with 12/12.
But after reading all of your last postings... I am sure that I hooked on a translation mistake. He surely gave them way more time to grow....
And it seems like I have not enough experience to understand that by myself. Well good that I start planning early!
The blindness can come so soft you just dont notice.....

I would hate to see you put time and energy into a build, and find yourself only half way through flower before it's time to cut and dry.

Do you have access to clones?

Thank ya very much for your post.
Yes the good thing is that I do have a good friend who is a grower himself.
Im sure that he could veg me the needed cuttings if I ask him. Could even give him my top44 seeds to grow a mom and do the cuttings and he could add another strain to his room...
only problem is the transport back(no driver licence...yep this aint the US *lol)


Btw Im sure that I will build this system up way before starting the grow to dry run it. mainly because:
1) I never used water irrigation, need to check if I understood it
2) I only want to drip the water into the upper plant and hang em in an angle that they will drip the water down to the next plant(when the medium is sucked full) and so on till it runs back to the tank. (with an actuall runoff about 30%)and that cyclus once a day with min nutrients...

My life is boring so I have to develope such ideas ! *lol
3) I need to check if the framework is strong enough

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

If you can manage clones, your time frame is very possible. But, based on your diagrams, you'll need, what, 96 to fill your frame?

That's a lot to ask of anyone, and it jacks their numbers super high. I don't know what the deal is in your world (Germany?) but that kind of favor would push some people in the states over federal limits.

2) I only want to drip the water into the upper plant and hang em in an angle that they will drip the water down to the next plant(when the medium is sucked full) and so on till it runs back to the tank. (with an actual runoff about 30%)and that cycles once a day with min nutrients...

I'm apprehensive of this approach, it will be feeding lower plants from the flushed nutes of the plant above it, and the plant above it, and the plant above it. You will not have any predictable way of knowing what goes wrong, if anything does.

Again, with only having one shot in this grow to get it done, you'll need some healthy clones, and some simple tried and true feed program.

There is no room for mistakes or recoveries.

You do, however, have time to veg your clones up to something big enough to get away with like 24 or 32 plants... a more reasonable starting number, perhaps.

 

[CannabisFox]

If you can manage clones, your time frame is very possible. But, based on your diagrams, you'll need, what, 96 to fill your frame?

it was around 90 but from seeds, so half male! (And the original idea was to start flowering another 45 seed plants after the first males were sorted out)
the system is laid out for 64 plants each getting ~50cm(20'') high and 20cm(8'') space to grow in the room.

That's a lot to ask of anyone, and it jacks their numbers super high. I don't know what the deal is in your world (Germany?) but that kind of favor would push some people in the states over federal limits.

Well I dont think that would be a problem. All he is doing is based on my knowledge (its an horizontal standard system)...So he will do me a favour.
And plant numbers.. limits... mh... dont care much about it. its illegal either way.

I'm apprehensive of this approach, it will be feeding lower plants from the flushed nutes of the plant above it, and the plant above it, and the plant above it. You will not have any predictable way of knowing what goes wrong, if anything does.

Again, with only having one shot in this grow to get it done, you'll need some healthy clones, and some simple tried and true feed program.

Mh.... It'll be better with a fixed irrigation and runoff for each plant. But I thought about ways to keep it easy to build up and down.. thats why I came up with that idea.
I just cant find out why it should not work... I mean what does happen to the nutrient solution after flowing through the first pot?
Theres rockwool inside.. roots.. some residues .. OK the residues are a point.. the most below plant would get the residues of all the plants above.. so it is possible that the lower plants get different ec (a total different solution) then the upper plants.
Dammit ^^

So I will
1) manage that I'll be able to grow with cuttings
2) come up with a (standard and) proofed watering method
(to 2; the main question is how to get the runoff most efficiently into the tank...)

I want to grow as many plants as possible cause plant numbers are the second most important factor of getting high yield. (for me this is kinda sport...)

There is no room for mistakes or recoveries.

Yea! Thx for helping!

 

[bobblehead]

as far as your feed situation is concerned... I saw a setup by Heath Robinson where he loaded up a bunch of coco or rockwool blocks in something like a 6" x 4' tray... so 15cm x 120cm. He secured the blocks in place, and stood it upright. Feed went into the top, and was collected at the bottom by a gutter system.

You can have the feed come into the top and trickle down, but you're going to need to have some runoff to prevent the salt buildup that we're talking about. I use H&G drip clean, by name, at 1mL a gallon. It binds excess ions, and they get pulled into the plant.

Build it, and we'll help you get it running... it's kind of hard to know exactly what's going on in an imaginary setup.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

I just cant find out why it should not work... I mean what does happen to the nutrient solution after flowing through the first pot?
Theres rockwool inside.. roots.. some residues .. OK the residues are a point.. the most below plant would get the residues of all the plants above.. so it is possible that the lower plants get different ec (a total different solution) then the upper plants.
Dammit ^^

Yep.

But it's not just the residues. Unless you run huge volumes, it's possible that your top plant will take up lots of the nutes it needs, slightly changing your feed profile. The next plant will get depleted feed, and further deplete it, until the bottom plant is getting residues and not what it needed from the beginning.

I like your spacing and geometry.

I presume that it's designed to keep the most plants in the most ideal light.

That is a great way to start.

Now you just need to engineer a delivery system that feeds your plants, and gets rid of the waste (or recycles it). As soon as you start building individual catch basins/trays, the price goes up, but that may be a direction worth exploring considering how much time you have before you run.