Sparks! Seeking Urgent Electrical Help

[Stress_test]

How did you come to this conclusion? His whole post, including the title, concerns sparks flying. You are correct about GFCI's forte', but if everything was hooked up properly and the GFCI was the source of the stray current, this is exactly the scenario that they should take care of (current being sourced by the GFCI which isn't being returned to the device).

A GFCI outlet monitors for a current imbalance between the hot and neutral wires and breaks the circuit if that condition occurs. That "imbalance" isn't exactly the perfect description though. Because ANY power directed into the neutral or the ground will trip a CGFI. Which is exactly what the "reset button" on the outlet is designed to do: Short directly between the hot and ground terminals inside the outlet. Just like dropping a hair dryer into a bath tub full of water.

A circuit breaker usually will trip if you receive a shock, but it may not act fast enough to protect you from harm. A GFCI outlet is more sensitive and acts faster than a circuit breaker or fuse and is thus an important safety feature. Most will trip in as fast as 1/30th of a second. But CGFI's are NOT thermal interrupters and will seldom trip because of amperage over draws.

A circuit breaker works as a thermal switch and is designed to trip when the heat from power draw climbs higher than the breaker is designed to allow. However electricity, just like water or air, always takes the path of least resistance.

Simply explained, a GFCI measures the amount of current that it is supplying, and compares it to what is coming back on the other leg. If there is a difference (usually in the neighborhood of 5 milliamps), it trips out because the current is taking a different route than what it should be. This would be caused by a ground fault. That is why in my earlier post I was conjecturing that the problem was possibly in the conduit prior to the GFCI's and the conduit was poorly grounded. If the conduit has a high-resistance ground, it can fail to create enough fault current to trip the breaker. If the fault was downstream of the GFCI, the GFCI should have tripped instantly when there was a difference in the outbound vs what was being returned to it.

That is a fair explanation of how a CGFI works, and is pretty close to the description given by manufacturers. But it isn't exactly what a CGFI actually does.


As I understand the situation:
The room is supplied @ the main with a 20 amp breaker which was used in construction to supply power to 1 or 2 rooms with limited outlets/lighting, so it is either 14-2 or 12-2 wire. AND it's run inside of metal conduit.

MikeRoOrganix tapped into the circuit at a junction box with heavy-duty extension cord, which is most likely 12-3 wire, but could possibly be 10-3 if he paid a premium for it.

The design of the room as described, is foil faced foam-board. Which of course is a capacitor in and of it self. (Read the bottom quote to understand how a capacitor works).

Now the reason I gave the previous response is as elementary as the ABC's.

Wires getting hot.
The air pump shorted and fried.
Ballast arcs and smells.
The room is constructed in such a manner as to create a capacitor. AND isn't grounded. Thus the "OZONE odor" mentioned in the original post.

The wiring at the end of the circuit is much smaller and will become the weakest link. Heat=resistance = more heat. When the circuit is under draw it begins heating the wiring all the way back to the source, heating the smallest wires and weakest connections first. Since the majority of the wiring is encased inside of metal conduit, the heat cannot radiate disperse. As the wires continue to heat, and wire-nuts get hot, both the wires and the connectors oxidize, which creates a capacitance gap.

Also: Appliances and electrical equipment that is operated on lower voltage or amperage than it is designed to operate, overheats and wears out faster. But it's the heat that causes problems, as it melts the plastic components inside that hold wrappings and brushes in place. The discharges being described are indicative of appliances operating at below normal or optimum power, creating heat which is causing resistance, resulting in more heat and then discharging either through thin, worn cords or appliances, OR wire connection that are corroded (oxidized) from heat.

A capacitor (formerly known as condenser) is a device for storing electric charge. The forms of practical capacitors vary widely, but all contain at least two conductors separated by a non-conductor. Capacitors used as parts of electrical systems, for example, consist of metal foils separated by a layer of insulating film.
A capacitor is a passive electronic component consisting of a pair of conductors separated by a dielectric (insulator). When there is a potential difference (voltage) across the conductors, a static electric field develops across the dielectric, causing positive charge to collect on one plate and negative charge on the other plate. Energy is stored in the electrostatic field. An ideal capacitor is characterized by a single constant value, capacitance, measured in farads. This is the ratio of the electric charge on each conductor to the potential difference between them.
Capacitors are widely used in electronic circuits for blocking direct current while allowing alternating current to pass, in filter networks, for smoothing the output of power supplies, in the resonant circuits that tune radios to particular frequencies and for many other purposes.
The capacitance is greatest when there is a narrow separation between large areas of conductor, hence capacitor conductors are often called "plates", referring to an early means of construction. In practice the dielectric between the plates passes a small amount of leakage current and also has an electric field strength limit, resulting in a breakdown voltage, while the conductors and leads introduce an undesired inductance and resistance.

 

[rives]

Interesting scenario, Stress Test, but I think it is far more likely that he has a hot conductor in contact with poorly grounded conduit or box, which in turn is in contact with his wall covering.

To address a couple of your points, breakers can be thermal, magnetic, or a combination. They will virtually never trip at the levels which will deliver a shock to the human body because of the body's inherent high resistance. If you are subjected to enough current to trip a 15 amp breaker, it is unlikely that you will survive the experience. The time/current curve that most breakers operate on require very high current flows to activate quickly - it may take hours for a 15 amp breaker to trip while providing substantially more current than they are rated for, particularly at low ambient temperatures.

Any wire-nutted connection that is going to form a capacitance gap is going to open the circuit. By definition, there can be no contact between the conductors in a capacitor or it ceases functioning as such.

You state -

"That "imbalance" isn't exactly the perfect description though. Because ANY power directed into the neutral or the ground will trip a CGFI."

This is incorrect. The GFCI is monitoring the hot and the neutral, or in the case of a 220v GFCI breaker, the two hot legs. The ground is unmonitored - if you apply power from an external source to the ground provided by the GFCI outlet, it will not trip. I believe that this is what the OP has going on - power sourced ahead of the GFCI in contact with the wall covering, finding it's way back to ground via the grounded devices plugged into the GFCI receptacles.

It will be interesting to see what he finds!

 

[Stress_test]

It will be interesting. I will be watching the thread to see what he discovers.

I won't argue about amperage or volts when it comes to human contact. It isn't safe at any level...
But many times I have tripped 15 or 20 amp breakers by grabbing the bare wires. I don't suggest it to others but then again I have been tazered before and ignore the shock and just jerk the darts out. After a few jolts, it really isn't as bad as LEO would like people to believe, if you know it's coming and are expecting it. I even have a dart from the last time a pig decided to watch me flop around.

I do disagree that a loose or corroded connection would simply disconnect or interrupt power. I mean dirty or corroded cable ends are the major causes of burned up starters on vehicles. One could argue that because a car is DC instead of AC that it doesn't apply I suppose. but loose wiring and connectors is also the leading cause of electrical fires, due to exactly the circumstances I described previously.
I also disagree with the working description given on the operation of a CGFI.
If even the slightest current is channeled into the ground or common wires, a properly working CGFI will trip, regardless of which side of the CGFI it occurs. Also if the ground is NOT connected to the CGFI, it simply won't work.

But regardless, "IF" a short has ocurred upstream of the CGFI a simple voltage test with the CGFI tripped would detect it.

My recommendation remains the same though.
A new, virgin run of new wire from the breaker.
Eliminating any possibilities of shorts or damaged wires/connections.

Hell it could even be that a nail or screw was driven into a wire and only completes a short circuit when it gets wet...

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Rives and Stress Test thank you both very much for continuing to read and post on my thread. I respect both of your opinions and I will keep both in mind as I do testing, hopefully tonight with my friend. I think I would sleep better knowing I had put in a new circuit and run a new wire. We'll see. Thanks again and thanks for limiting the theory debate. BIG K+

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Ok we are starting tests now - foil and reflector shows 120vac. Isolating the 250mh and reflector now.

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Even after turning off power to the room's circuit, we were still able to get 120v by connecting the wall foil to the reflector. We are thinking there are two circuits run from the breaker box to my room. We tapped into one of those circuits.

We found that the 600 had a loosely connected ground wire.

I am going to be spending the night/morning removing some things.

Still thinking i should run a new circuit and wiring.

 

[rives]

Pulling new wire would certainly be a good idea, but if there is a second circuit in there that is responsible for the stray voltage, it isn't going to cure your problem unless you change it out to. If you kill all of the power so that you don't get a voltage reading from the foil to ground, you can take resistance measurements from electrical ground to the reflector and it should be close to zero ohms. Do the same thing from ground to the foil and ground to the conduit and see where you are losing ground continuity. Unless you have a hot conductor up against the foil somewhere, I am still betting that the conduit is heating it up. If the conduit is solidly grounded, then that cannot be the problem. If it is floating, Voila! Rigid conduit is seldom the culprit in this type of instance because of the way that it connects together, but you probably have EMT, which can easily be pulled apart at the connection points. It may also not even go back to the panel to tie into ground. You mentioned that you tapped into power in a box mid-run on the conduit. Can you see if the box has a ground wire attached?

 

[Stress_test]

Even after turning off power to the room's circuit, we were still able to get 120v by connecting the wall foil to the reflector. We are thinking there are two circuits run from the breaker box to my room. We tapped into one of those circuits.

We found that the 600 had a loosely connected ground wire.

I am going to be spending the night/morning removing some things.

Still thinking i should run a new circuit and wiring.

Ummmm. That sure sounds like 2 separate circuits that have been tied together someplace.

I would still recommend that you put the wires back the way they were originally and pull a new circuit.
It's really the only way you are going to be absolutely sure that the wiring is going to supply dependable power anyway. Hell if somebody turns on a hair dryer on a 20 amp circuit with your room running it's going to put too much draw on 12-2.
Bedrooms aren't typically wired to support the draw.

 

[RedRain]

yikes!! so your walls and hoods are live??


did you staple or nail your foil to the wall?? is it possible one of those nails or staples penetrated a line and is now conducting power??

if i were you i would shut down and re-build...power is no joke......

+1 to rebuild and start over.....

safety 1st

best of luck...cool to see a fellow Og'er still kickin

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Okay I'm back at it this morning. There are two circuits in play here. One is labeled 'garage and small bedroom', one is labeled "outside garage lights, entryway lights, living room lights". Each is 15amps. When I turn both circuits off, I get zero ac reading from foil to reflector.

you can take resistance measurements from electrical ground

How do I do this? While power is OFF, should I put the multi meter lead into the electrical outlet's ground hole? And then other lead to places you mentioned around the room?

I cant stress enough my dismay at letting my power situation get this out of control. I dont really have a safe contractor in my network anymore.

Hey OG RedRain, thanks for the greeting! The foil faced foam-board is glued to the concrete block wall. Ceiling and floor seams are taped with aluminum water heater tape.

I am planning on running a new circuit, but as Rives suggested above, I must cure the stray voltage problem first and foremost.

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Ok, so I have "room circuit" and "outdoor circuit".

When Room is off, foil walls are still live.
When Outdoor is off but Room is on, foil walls are not live.

However, BOTH circuits need to be ON for my outlets to recieve power (reset button may be fully pressed and green gcfi light comes on).

 

[rives]

How do I do this? While power is OFF, should I put the multi meter lead into the electrical outlet's ground hole? And then other lead to places you mentioned around the room?

Exactly! If you need longer leads, get a chunk of wire, strip the ends back and use that to extend them.

 

[rives]

On my last post I didn't see that there was already another page, so I didn't see your pictures. When you were referring to "conduit", I didn't realize that you were talking about flex. I don't see a ground wire pulled in on any of those circuits going into the flex from your panel. A ground conductor has been required with flex for a long time, certainly pre-dating your house if it was built in the 80's. However, there appears to be a green conductor hanging out of the box above the timer in the second picture. Where does it come from and what does it attach to? I would be very concerned about the grounding on all of the circuits that are being fed by that flex if there really isn't a ground conductor included.

*edit*

However, BOTH circuits need to be ON for my outlets to recieve power (reset button may be fully pressed and green gcfi light comes on).

Why is this? What is the reason that you cannot energize individual circuits?

 

[Stress_test]

Once again I will warn that you are treading into treacherous territory.

Okay I'm back at it this morning. There are two circuits in play here. One is labeled 'garage and small bedroom', one is labeled "outside garage lights, entryway lights, living room lights". Each is 15amps. When I turn both circuits off, I get zero ac reading from foil to reflector.
etc...........

15 amp circuits are almost always wired with 14-2 wire. Definitely not sufficient to handle a grow op, especially if ANYTHING is turned on in the other rooms.

I really don't think most novas electricians have the working knowledge of wiring to tackle the problems which I anticipate you are about to unravel.
Most garages and outside lighting is wired with 2 and 3 way switches. So it's common for people to accidentally tap the wrong wires.
The problem is that: You run out of wire colors when wiring 2 or 3 way switches, so it was, and still is, a common practice to cheat and use a neutral or ground wire in 14-3 w/ground for the return hot leg. Although most electricians will tape all ends with red tape to mark it, some don't. So it's easy to mistake since it's hot but is the wrong color.

I'm not being mean or presuming you to be an idiot, but to be absolutely honest: I seriously doubt that you have the electrical knowledge to sort out a 2 or 3 way switch setup that's mixed into 2 separate circuits. I have seen pros with 25+ yrs experience get twisted and confused with em.

Be careful! If you don't already have one then I recommend that you stop everything and go spend $15 at the hardware store and get an Non-Contact AC Voltage detector.
There are many manufacturers and most hardware stores carry them.
It will save you a lot of work in tracing circuits. Check every wire regardless of color, even if you are sure of where it goes.

Keep in mind that the problem most likely occurred in the junction box where you tapped into the wiring.

Check the breaker panel again and see it there is a breaker marked "Garage outlets". Hopefully there is and it isn't also on one of the 2 circuits you're dealing with.

Isolate 1 entire circuit at a time. Leave the other 1 dead at the panel.
Draw pictures of each area and room and identify the outlets and lights AND switches on the drawings.

The safest and easiest way is that voltage detector I mentioned above. As you can tape it to a wire and hear the beeping/tone in another room to isolate and identify where wires are routed.

I just realized that the page has turned and I'm not keeping up and don't have all the info. So I'm gonna bow out and lurk.

 

[gardenbug]

I' having trouble seeing why both breakers would have to be on unless you are accidentally wired as 220v.

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Stress Test I am not positive but I think you may be right here:

Most garages and outside lighting is wired with 2 and 3 way switches. So it's common for people to accidentally tap the wrong wires.

I am SURE there is a 3-way switch in my entryway lighting, I know from the circuit board labeling that it is on one of the two circuits I am dealing with. AND I KNOW that the 3-way switch IN MY HOUSE is not wired correctly. To describe this.. There is a switch at top, landing, and bottom of this split-level stairway. When I use any single light switch I can control on and off. If I move to another level (say bottom), and the switch is in ON position at top of stairs, the bottom switch is nonfunctional.

Again, THANK you VERY much for everyone's assistance, this thread has been VERY VERY helpful for me already.

 

[rives]

3 & 4 way switches can be confusing until you draw them out. That makes life a lot simpler. What have you found on the grounding?

 

[MikeRoOrganix]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRoOrganix
However, BOTH circuits need to be ON for my outlets to recieve power (reset button may be fully pressed and green gcfi light comes on).
Why is this? What is the reason that you cannot energize individual circuits?>>

Rives I have no idea why that might be. All I know is I tried to get the rooms outlets with gcfi to energize. The little green light on the outlet would not turn on when either circuit 1 or 2 were energized individually at the box. Only when they were BOTH on could I get power to the room. THANKS!

<<StressTest but to be absolutely honest: I seriously doubt that you have the electrical knowledge to sort out a 2 or 3 way switch setup that's mixed into 2 separate circuits. >>

I appreciate your advice and your honesty. Please know that while I am trying to learn here, I am not planning on tackling ANY electrical task above my ability. I had a contractor friend (not electrician though) help me with BASICS the other night. I found a friend now who is an elect engineer and he said he would help me.

So I really think it has to do with that goofy entryway lightswitch that doesnt work right. Which probably means the room is not taking power from a correctly wired circuit and is also, therefore, miswired.

Rives I havent' gotten to do the ground tests yet. Too busy saving ladies and running extension cords sigh. Family stuff today for a while and I will be doing those tests and posting about it later today. TAHNSK!

 

[rives]

Curiouser and curiouser! Have you removed the GFCI receptacles shown in your picture to see how they are wired? It appears as though both receptacles are GFCI's from what I can see. Normally, if they were on the same circuit, a single GFCI would be used with a conventional receptacle daisy-chained off of it's "load" side so that both receptacles would be protected by the one GFCI circuit. Also, are the circuit breakers that feed these two circuits conventional breakers or by any chance is that GFCI breaker that is shown in the upper right corner of your panel involved?

I don't see where your blue plastic box with the GFCI receptacles is being fed from unless it is the unprotected (!) black, white and possibly a green conductor that appears to be wrapped around the flex and disappears back toward the metal box on the left. If these are the feeders, they should be protected (changed to a piece of romex, perhaps). Is that black wire pinched between the plastic box and the foil on the ceiling? Also, if that is a green ground wire feeding the plastic box, where does it tie back to ground if there are no ground wires leaving your panel?