water issues and ph

[w2008]

hi there all, i have a problem with my waters, hahaha. tap water here is between 7 and 7.6, depending on the day. i lower this with ph down, but within hours it is over 7 again, it isnt my pen or nutrients, as it does this with a glass of plain water too? any assistance would be appreciated, thanks oz

 

[Andyo]

ph down= nitric or phosphoric

ph down= nitric or phosphoric

Ideally you should use nitric acid.
You have high levels of calcium and magnesium carbonate.
Nitric is far more efficient with calcium carbonate
My well water is the same i ph twice .
Mostly i use rain water or AC condensate.A

 

[w2008]

ph

ph

Ideally you should use nitric acid.
You have high levels of calcium and magnesium carbonate.
Nitric is far more efficient with calcium carbonate
My well water is the same i ph twice .
Mostly i use rain water or AC condensate.A

thanks for the advice, do you know if this could be caused by old rusty water pipes? oz

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

No, it's not from your pipes, it's the natural level of dissolved minerals in your water supply. Calcium and Magnesium salts buffer, or resist Ph swings in the water, so the effect of Ph down products last a little while, then the Ph goes back to where it was. The upside of hard water is that the minerals that make the water hard are all plant nutrients that you'd need to add if they weren't already there in the water supply. Some growers think a fair amount of Ph swing between rez changes is a good thing, especially if it occurs as a result of lowering nutrient concentration.

 

[lokes]

Whoa guys!
I've had the same issues but you're giving advice based on your experience.
The OP's might be totally different. Let's use troubleshooting first.
Organic nutes can swing, temps can swing, a lot can swing.

Maybe ask the OP what nutes, temps and setup he has before diagnosing.
Glad you're not my primary care physician.
No disrespect, but let's not jump the gun.

 

[Scrogerman]

Sounds like you have soft water, very low cal/Mg ppm & therefore little buffering. Most nute lines account for this. Increase EC a bit if your PH is flying up, as long as the nutes your using are well buffered it should fix the problem, if not add some calmag to your base water & bring the PPM/EC up into midrange water hardness for better PH buffering. Its those Cal-Mag ions/carbonates that are buffering your PH keeping it stable for longer.

Here's a good thread for you mate: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23357

What nute line are you using & system etc? out of interest! & what is the ppm/EC of your water?(you could do with knowing this man)
MrGreenG hit it on the head!

G'Luck!

 

[w2008]

hi fellas, thanks for the advice, i run tubs with constant sprays on the roots for clone & early veg, flower room is rockwool slabs in rwc tubs fed with nut's every 2 hrs lights on, and am putting a recirc dwc system in a tent now for new strain mums and clones. but it happens to a glass of plain water, overnight it rises a point, just sitting there. i think i have soft water as i have no trouble with soaps and detergents working well, i tried my ec/ppm wand in it and it didnt register, but it only goes down to 100 ppm, ph is 7.2, im using GT grow and flower, but have just started all the DM gear in my clone/flower room to see any diff, i use zone and pythoff as well, thanks for the thread scrogerman, off to find some bicarb soda, haha or is it called cal/mag that i ask for? cheers all oz

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I think the OP gave me enough info to troubleshoot, after all he confined the question to the water, not to the rest of his setup. I thought I was clear in my first post, but I'm often not, so I'll try again. There are two kinds of water with a PH above neutral, hard water and artificially 'upped' soft water. In many parts of the world, the local water supply is from rain, so it will contain very little dissolved minerals and is 'soft'. Soft water can be at many different PH's depending on what's going on with dissolved organics in there, more dissolved organics will drive the PH lower. Since soft water with a low PH is preferred by bacteria and other baddies, many water supply companies put PH 'up' chemicals in soft water to discourage bacterial activity. Artificially upped PH takes less chemicals to adjust, and the adjustment will be more permanent. Naturally hard water is 'buffered' against PH swings and so it resists the PH down chemicals. The water stays low in PH for a while, then returns to it's original higher PH. The OP probably has the naturally hard water, since his resists the chemicals.

 

[Scrogerman]

Naturally Hard water with a near neutral PH? & less than 100ppm(GH), i wouldnt of thought so, what makes you see this MRG?

7.2 @ less than 100 ppm, doesnt seem hard to me? Cant get my head around that man?

If that was true, those numbers dont add up to me. & the Soap lather thing he mentions, which i know is a major issue with HW?
?

 

[w2008]

thanks fellas, i am confused now lol. i am on melbourne metro water, but the pipes are old and rusty with reduced pressure flow iono if this matters or not? thanks oz

 

[Stress_test]

My tap water is pretty hard and I have to adjust down Ph twice a day.
Tap Ph is 7.3
Ph down to 5.5 and it will be off scale in 24 hrs if not kept in check and adjusted.


Chemical Average
Manganese 60 ppb
Lead (total) 0.71 ppb
Bromodichloromethane 0.23 ppb
Dibromochloromethane 0.2 ppb
Arsenic (total) 8 ppb Chloroform 0.27 ppb
Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs) 0.7 ppb
Barium (total) 200 ppb

Total 262.11ppb
1ppm = 1000ppb
262.11 ppb = 0.26211 ppm

These numbers come from a water test 2 days ago.

 

[Scrogerman]

Whats your total General Hardness(GH) stress? Cal/Mag ion/carbonate numbers? its these that make HW man?

Those numbers look like they are from a water board website/chem analysis>? part of the overall numbers anyway.
How did you measure for those chems man?

 

[teemu shalanie]

Im in canada and city tap h20 comes out @ 7.0-7.1, and is aprox 150ppm which is far from hARD H20?.......
TS

 

[Scrogerman]

Im in canada and city tap h20 comes out @ 7.0-7.1, and is aprox 150ppm which is far from hARD H20?.......
TS

(.7)@150ppm, is midrange water hardness, neither soft nor hard, good water like mine! i got around -140ppms!(EC0.1 approx)

http://www.scottsprofessional.co.uk/uploads/xkPbr1AUF.pdf

http://www.aqua-nouveau.co.uk/why-water-softeners/problems-with-hard-water/

http://www.watersoftenerssanantoniotx.com/ (GPG/Grains per Gallon in US)

http://www.piranha-fury.com/pfury/index.php?/topic/198676-aquarium-chemistry/

http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php/133-Water-Parameters-pH-GH-KH-NO3-CO2

Could go on all day, theres plenty of info out there on these issues!

G'Luck!

 

[Stress_test]

? doesnt make a bit of sense to me Stress, thats not how you measure for HW?

HW is measured by the Cal/Mg ions/carbonates, your ppm is very low & i dont see any Cal/mag in your numbers.??
EC meters measure the GH as far as i know, Cal/Mag making up the major majority of that charge for GH!

Hey folks I'm not entering into a debate at all. I don't use hydro or aero primarily and am still learning from you people who do.
I know that I have to adjust Ph twice a day in the aero tubs I use for cloning.

To be honest I have been fighting the water and Ph for months. I have designed and am in the process of building a bigger 200 site tube aeroponics system and don't want to spend the money setting it up until I can resolve the water issue.
That is the reason I sent a water sample in to be tested. Just about any water well drilling or servicing company will test water 1 time for free. So I had my tap water tested. So that's where I got my numbers. The "ppb" is what they sent on the test report, as well as the conversion.

If I fill a pan from the tap and let it evaporate. there is a thick layer of white powder residue let behind.
If I bubble a 5 gal bucket while it evaporates, then it leaves a gal of thick heavy soup, about the consistency of paint. My tap water will actually spoil and rot and stink like rotten meat if left stagnant in the sink.
Now I always thought that "hard water" was water that's full of trace minerals.

So I'm lurking and learning and throwing a little of my shit in to the mix hoping that I'll learn something that will help me manage my tap water. Because it's unusable for hydro or aero unless I can figure it out.

I just know that everybody else isn't having to fight with Ph swings like I am and while I know it ain't magic, I haven't found any way to use my tap water. And buying 16 gallons of bottled water at a time to fill a rez gets expensive.

 

[toohighmf]

RO....

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey folks I'm not entering into a debate at all. I don't use hydro or aero primarily and am still learning from you people who do.
I know that I have to adjust Ph twice a day in the aero tubs I use for cloning.

To be honest I have been fighting the water and Ph for months. I have designed and am in the process of building a bigger 200 site tube aeroponics system and don't want to spend the money setting it up until I can resolve the water issue.
That is the reason I sent a water sample in to be tested. Just about any water well drilling or servicing company will test water 1 time for free. So I had my tap water tested. So that's where I got my numbers. The "ppb" is what they sent on the test report, as well as the conversion.

If I fill a pan from the tap and let it evaporate. there is a thick layer of white powder residue let behind.
If I bubble a 5 gal bucket while it evaporates, then it leaves a gal of thick heavy soup, about the consistency of paint. My tap water will actually spoil and rot and stink like rotten meat if left stagnant in the sink.
Now I always thought that "hard water" was water that's full of trace minerals.

So I'm lurking and learning and throwing a little of my shit in to the mix hoping that I'll learn something that will help me manage my tap water. Because it's unusable for hydro or aero unless I can figure it out.

I just know that everybody else isn't having to fight with Ph swings like I am and while I know it ain't magic, I haven't found any way to use my tap water. And buying 16 gallons of bottled water at a time to fill a rez gets expensive.

Going on what you've said the water company never even sent you all the information. Mine was 3 x pages of A4 & a full chemical analysis, included everything, EC, kH, GH, PH,(N,P,K,Ca,Mg,S etc etc etc), all Chemical & non chemical elements(ppb/ppm), pesticides etc.

Its the ppm of Cal/Mg ions which would give you the best clue as to water hardness, as thats whats its based on, mg/l, ppm(GPG in US).

These issues always come up. simple answer is get an EC meter as they measure GH, & will give you the best idea of water hardness!

For people without EC meters a good way to check is, look for lime scale around kettles taps, showerheads etc, & try the soap lather test. Hard water really struggles to give soap lather/bubbles, where as only a little soap will produce masses of lather/bubbles with soft & RO water. Drys the skin horribly HW, ive even had almost mild burns from bathing in really hard water it seemed.

G'Luck buddy!

 

[Stress_test]

Yeah you're right, there are 3 pages.
I'm still deciphering the rest of it.

I have an EC meter ordered too. I'm also making room for an evaporation system to remove the water from the crap.

I try and set up my dirt pots according to weight, so that it's easy to decide if they need water even if I'm stoned.
But it took awhile of watering and drying my pots so I could get weights through out a cycle. Because the solids continue to build as they are filtered out through the soil over the course of a grow cycle. It's kinda surprising that in 4 months the pots gain over 5 pounds in weight just from the solids in the tap water.

 

[Scrogerman]

I know what you mean, it takes some hours to consider it all for sure.

It should give you the GH & kH ect on the analysis bro, just look at the Cal/Mg mg/l/ppm(GPG) & you should be able to get an idea, then once your EC meter comes you can correlate.

A Map search of the Hard or soft water in your area would also give you a 'Rough' idea, but they aint always accurate.
(sometimes approx isnt good enough, well not for us anyway)

G'Luck!

 

[Stress_test]

Hey thanks guys. And I'm still lurkin and learning. I know that until I have the meter then the rest of this is speculation mostly cause there's no way to see the changes happening in the water without the meter to monitor exactly what happens.
I'm just absorbing all I can while I wait.