Fat sounds good.
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Best version of CalMag
- Thread starter deepcover
- Start date
Fat sounds good.
plants store mag in the lower (oldest) part of the plant. when flowering is initiated, plants seem to move this stored mag up to where it is needed most: newly forming flowers.DiscoBiscuit said:
this is the "magnesium deficiency" most often seen by gardeners... flowering starts, the bottom fan leaves start yellowing. this is the mobile mag moving from where it is no longer needed.
this can be prevented by providing more mag during the last week of veg.
also, most gardeners start to increase potassium in their nutrient solution during early flowering. this can also antagonise calcium and magnesium uptake. plants can generally take large amount of k (250-500+ppm), but lower amount of cal & mag, though often the compounds are all mixed together in high concentrations. this can lead to precipitation of the compounds while they are in the mixing tank, or antagonisms in the media once applied.
a light foliar feed of regular epsom salts, diluted to 1g / 1l, & applied as a fine mist, to the entire plant, may also help prevent mag deficiencies in certain parts of the plant.
calcium, while in most "cal-mag" type supplments, is highly reactive w/ other elements, including the potassium that most gardeners increase during flowering. this is why the option of feeding both cal & mag separately from other compounds seems to get those elements through to the plant most effectively.
calcium is more immobile, though it does move some, mainly during transpiration. cal deficiency appears at the top of the plant (newest and youngest part). pale new growth and stunting.
iron deficiency may look like both, though there will be more necrosis on the leaves. simple iron supplements like hy-yeild iron may help.
hope this helps.
Molybdenum (Mo)
Molybdenum has proteins that help the plant take nitrogen from the air.
A Molybdenum deficiency causes leaves to have a pale, fringed and scorched look, along with weird or retarded leaf growth. Yellowing of middle leaves can occur as well as twisted younger leaves which will eventually die. Molybdenum deficiencies frequently resemble a nitrogen deficiency. A Molybdenum deficiency shows older chlorotic leaves with rolled margins and stunted growth. Looks like a nitrogen deficiency but with the red tips moving inwards to the middle of the leaves. Molybendum deficiency will usually show up in the older to middle aged leaves, then it moves to the young leaves. Generally a molybdenum deficiency occurs when sulfur and phosphorus are deficient.
Molybdenum toxicity doesn’t cause to many problems, but may cause problems when the human ingests it. Excessive molybdenum in cannabis will look like iron or copper deficiency. Parts affected are by the molybdenum deficiency are: Older leaves.
Problems with Molybdenum being Locked out by Ph Troubles
Soil ph that are under 5.5
Soil
Molybdenum gets locked out of soil growing at ph levels of 2.0-6.5
Molybdenum is absorbed best in soil at a ph level of 7.0-9.5 (Wouldn’t recommend having a soil ph of over 7.0 in soil) anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Molybdenum deficiency.
Hydro and Soil less Mediums
Molybdenum gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.5
Molybdenum is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 6.0-8.0 (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Molybdenum deficiency.
Solution to fixing a Molybdenum deficiency
One way to fix a Molybdenum deficiency is to foliar spray with Molybdenum, like Miracle Grow All Purpose plant food and Miracle Grow: Tomato Plant Food. These can also be used to mix in with water as well. (Only mixing at ½ strength when using chemical nutrients, or it will cause nutrient burn!)Other nutrients that have Molybdenum in them are: I think Peters All Purpose Plant food does, as well as Greensand, Lime. Green sand and lime is slow/medium absorption, while Peters All Purpose Plant Food is fast absorption.
Now if you added to much chemical nutrients and or organics,( which is hard to burn your plants when using organics) You need to Flush the soil with plain water. You need to use 2 times as much water as the size of the pot, for example: If you have a 5 gallon pot and need to flush it, you need to use 10 gallons of water to rinse out the soil good enough to get rid of excessive nutrients.
Picture 1 and 2 is a Molybdenum deficiency in late flowering
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TheBioMaster
Member
Decent base nutrients need no cal/mag supplements.
I used to use FLoraNova Bloom at 15 ml per gallon and never got one lock out or Cal_mag problem
EliTheBarrowBoy
Member
I use Botanicare with no issue, though I'm thinking of switching to *gulp* General Organics' version due to the zero N or EDTA.
JAY LENWEED
Member
Not tryn to be an ass but Advanced Nutes Cal/Mag suppliment is called Sensical grow or bloom and yes it is the bomb. As for veg I use between 50 & 100ppm of Sensical and its plenty!
JAY LENWEED
Member
Not true grasshopper, if your using coco a cal suppliment is necessary to avoid a deficiency.
Y
YosemiteSam
While edta is an excellent synthetic chelate for most micros it is my understanding that the resulting molecule (for Mn, which is a divalent cation you would have 2 moles of edta to 1 mole of Mn for a proper chelate) is very large. Possibly so large that it would have to break down for the Mn to be absorbed by the plant. The same would be true for iron although off the top of my head I do not remember if iron is di or tri valent...tri would require 3 moles of edta to properly chelate the iron cation).
What some say is that once the chelate breaks down you can possibly end up with edta then turning around and pulling micros back out of the plant...including Mn.
Does that actually happen. I don't know I would think not given all of the nutes that get successfully used that contain edta chelates. Still you read it from time to time.
My preference would be CaNO3 and epsom salts if you think you need CalMg...perhaps even better would be foliar application of a calcium product like Albion Metalosate Ca (an amino acid chelated product) and/or epsom salts. That way you can dial the ratios depending on what you actually see with your plant...and you don't automatically have to add N that way.
What some say is that once the chelate breaks down you can possibly end up with edta then turning around and pulling micros back out of the plant...including Mn.
Does that actually happen. I don't know I would think not given all of the nutes that get successfully used that contain edta chelates. Still you read it from time to time.
My preference would be CaNO3 and epsom salts if you think you need CalMg...perhaps even better would be foliar application of a calcium product like Albion Metalosate Ca (an amino acid chelated product) and/or epsom salts. That way you can dial the ratios depending on what you actually see with your plant...and you don't automatically have to add N that way.
As for the original question, I like MagiCal over Cal-Mag+, but only because it uses two forms of Ca and Fe.
Disco is basically spot on. Its worth adding that too much Mg will fuck up Ca too; basically too much Na,K,Ca or Mg will fuck with each other.
I whole hardheartedly agree that later flower Cal-Mag can make for poor tasting bud, however i believe this is because of the Nitrogen that is used in most cal-mags (specifically nitrate).
Also if you want the Mg, and dont want to fuck with epsom salt, almost every 'carb product' is sugar and MgS (MgS = espom salt).
Disco is basically spot on. Its worth adding that too much Mg will fuck up Ca too; basically too much Na,K,Ca or Mg will fuck with each other.
I whole hardheartedly agree that later flower Cal-Mag can make for poor tasting bud, however i believe this is because of the Nitrogen that is used in most cal-mags (specifically nitrate).
Also if you want the Mg, and dont want to fuck with epsom salt, almost every 'carb product' is sugar and MgS (MgS = espom salt).
TheBioMaster
Member
Not true grasshopper, if your using coco a cal suppliment is necessary to avoid a deficiency.
Yes true "young" grasshopper, they make nutrients especially formulated for Coco. And again, if decent you will need no cal/mag supplement.
Cal/mag is probably one of THE most over used supplement on the market. It is made to be used as a tool to aid a grower with an occasional problem in the garden.. ect..ect... not meant to be used as a regular nutrient with regular feedings. If you have to add cal/mag like a nutrient to every feeding then do yourself a favor and FIX the problem whatever that may be as the base nutrients should have MORE than enough Cal/Mag already in it!
To many folks that do NOT use it at ALL, and NEVER have used it and do not have deficiencies or problems.
G
Guest 18340
Not necessarily. I run Maxibloom or Lucas formula with tap water and don't ever use any supplements. Haven't used any for 3 years now.Not true grasshopper, if your using coco a cal suppliment is necessary to avoid a deficiency.
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organicsquirrel
Member
I think people who use calmag regularly use r/o water and I feel like it's important in that regard. I noticed at first when I switched from well to r/o water there were problems until I used calmag and I am running rezipe 6/9 micro/bloom in coco. 2 ml per gallon seems to do it on top of the 0 ppm r/o water.
G
Guest 18340
I agree organicsquirrel. RO water usually necessitates the addition of cal/mag.
TheCatsMeow
Member
i have a question- i use canna coco nutes with canna coco and when i grow a strain that blueberryish there is no need for cal/mag. if i grow a strain like chem, i need it and at high levels from what i read...
i use the cal/mag every feeding from early on in veg to current(start of 4thweek of 10) and im wondering when it might be a good idea to either cut the cal/mag out or lower the dose. the plants seem to love/need the addition of cal/mag at high doses. does this seem normal??
currently using tap water at about 7.5ph and ppm of 80 and add call mag til at about 300ppms and then add my base nutes.
Y
YosemiteSam
TheCats...my opinion...chems are heavy feeders. They not only need more Ca and Mg...they need more of everything else N, K, etc. Ratio wise though I do not believe they are so different from Blueberry. You can address this two ways...feed a heavier EC (same formula but more concentrated) or (if your media will allow it) simply water them more often than the Blueberry. Merely adding CalMag could throw your K:Ca:Mg ratio off and make less K available...not a good thing in late flower.
It is my opinion that Mg is also a contributor to less than ideal taste late in flower along with N. Mg is the element at the center of the chlorophyll molecule. Excess N and high chlorophyll seem to be the main offenders for taste.
Whether or not CalMag is needed depends on the base formula and your water source. Making a blanket statement without considering water could be a disservice to the person asking the question.
I like, for general purposes, a formula of 3-1.2-4-2-1 N-P-K-Ca-Mg.
Ca is normally the one you really need to watch out locking out. It is the least mobile in the plant making it the most likely to be locked out...it travels exclusively through the xylem.
It is my opinion that Mg is also a contributor to less than ideal taste late in flower along with N. Mg is the element at the center of the chlorophyll molecule. Excess N and high chlorophyll seem to be the main offenders for taste.
Whether or not CalMag is needed depends on the base formula and your water source. Making a blanket statement without considering water could be a disservice to the person asking the question.
I like, for general purposes, a formula of 3-1.2-4-2-1 N-P-K-Ca-Mg.
Ca is normally the one you really need to watch out locking out. It is the least mobile in the plant making it the most likely to be locked out...it travels exclusively through the xylem.
Hi Sam, so I take it you mean that formula as a total, including your water source's nutrients?
I see 1:1 N:Ca recommended a lot. Interesting you're on 2/3rds the calcium of that. Does your suggestion take into account the foliar Ca applications I saw you mention on another thread?
Would you say it's harder to lock out Ca if you supply some thru irrigation, and some thru foliar? I'm guessing you would have to be on top of reading the plants to pull it off successfully? Cheers.
Oh, bonus question!: If one had a Ca lockout, would foliar Ca supply the calcium that is being locked out via the irrigation feeding?
Which Ca supp do you folair with Doc?
People overlook foliar application, i dont why, its an instant fix & hits the root of the problem instantly! without messing with your medium.
I was thinking of trying Canna Mono liquid Ca.?
