Absolute huh? n bye
Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment
- Thread starter Regulator Dave
- Start date
Absolute huh? n bye
M
Mountain
What? Have fun guys.
hurdy gurdy man
Member
You have no clue of what your are talking about, and you are totally wrong.
That was really funny. Ha Ha Ha...
hurdy gurdy man
Member
You're absolutely correct. I was being a lazy mofo. Sorry.
AFGHANICA79
Member
Why not??
I beleive mother 1 doesnt know whats in store for her offsprings
Mother 2 has an idea whats in store for her offsprings shes been there and wore the t shirt
"YOU GOTTA GO THERE TO COME BACK"
Degredation of a clone- My blues cut was in a bad way for being cloned for nearly 2 centuries and passed about like a porno but i nurtured her back to health and shes sweet.
Does a clone remember/pick up things from its previous enviros.
I have done this experiment for my own needs and obsevations i have the time to do so!!
BlueGrassToker
Active member
A genetic map of a single cultivar *(a cultivar is ANY plant that has been selectively bred for certain characteristics and is basically synonymous with the term cultigen...fwiw) is what it is, and there won't be any genetic map modifications happen from time alone. Only some catalyst such as a viral attack would cause a plant to produce hormones that may weaken or mutate it's patterns. Environments can only trigger the plant to display what it's particular genetic layout has (and has always had) to offer.
If there is an actual drift that sorts the genes out differently (genetic modification) in a single plant, I am certainly unaware of it and would be greatly interested in reading about it.
If there is an actual drift that sorts the genes out differently (genetic modification) in a single plant, I am certainly unaware of it and would be greatly interested in reading about it.
Here is some reading material about environmental DNA damage for you in addition to what I've already posted in this thread. Now for sure I'm done.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1469644/pdf/envhper00346-0053.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241569/pdf/ehp0111-001164.pdf
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=environmental-dna-damage
http://www.springerlink.com/content/31t0457x7u076k52 $
http://mutage.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/6/547.full.pdf+html
Honkytonk
Member
Still, cloning itself does not cause genetic mutations.
There's no doubt that toxins, radiation, viruses, etc. can cause mutations but what has that to do with cloning?
You will be able to mess up a clone and then take a clone of it that seems to be degraded or whatever. Cloning still wasn't the cause.
Wasn't that what the thread was about?
Is it now about if mutations can happen? Yes they can. There you go.
There's no doubt that toxins, radiation, viruses, etc. can cause mutations but what has that to do with cloning?
You will be able to mess up a clone and then take a clone of it that seems to be degraded or whatever. Cloning still wasn't the cause.
Wasn't that what the thread was about?
Is it now about if mutations can happen? Yes they can. There you go.
Scagnetti
New member
Yeah I think that's right, F... is seed generations. What, if any designation is given to a clone. Don't get to talk nomenclature in person very much due to the paranoia level in a red state. Thanks
Because clones are identical, there has never been a need to differentiate which 'generation' they are from.
This is a good thread thanks for starting it dave. I think the thing that is missing from this discussion is the question of telomeres and telomerase activity in plants.
The phenomena of telomeric aging is know as the hayflick phenomenon or the Hayflick limit. it is the number of times a given cell line can reproduce before senescence due to telomere shortening occurs.
In animals the hayflick limit is responsible for much of the aging process as cell line after cell line become increasingly senescent and the existing cells die. In plants telomerase enzymes are active at different stages in the lifecycle and allow the plant to repair telomere lengths which thus allows plants like the bristle cone pine to live for millennia. Here is a link to a review on plant telomere studies....http://protein.bio.msu.su/biokhimiya/contents/v62/full/62111432.html
and a quote that relates to this discussion:
"It is also unknown whether telomerase becomes activated during vegetative reproduction as it does during sexual reproduction. Telomerase expression during vegetative reproduction promises to be an interesting area of research. In vegetative tissues of most plants that have been examined, telomerase activity is absent or barely detectable even with the very sensitive TRAP assay. What happens to telomeres in plants derived from such tissues? Do the telomeres continually shorten, resulting in a Hayflick limit on the rounds of propagation, or is there some mechanism for inducing telomerase or an alternative mechanism for maintaining telomeres? Many horticultural crops have been vegetatively propagated for years without appearing to lose their chromosomes, indicating that telomerase or an alternative mechanism for telomere maintenance is activated during vegetative propagation."
I have seen a cannabis cultivar that had been repeatedly cloned for 20yrs lose it's vigor, and it was a truely great strain,super potent tasty and super high yeilding...it became weak, spidly diffuse and with no warning and no unusual events. Perhaps the genetics were such that the telomerase enzyme activity was particularly low. Perhaps not...
More studies on cannabis telomerase activity could be enlightening as to why some strains seem to go on forever and others lose vigor.
One thing that is interesting is that plants develop more telomerase activity during flowering, perhaps that's why I like the way my plants clone when taken in early flowering??
HM
hurdy gurdy man
Member
Wow!
I wonder if telomerase enzyme activity is responsible for the insane branching that will result from taking a clone from a plant a couple weeks into flowering.
Just skimmed the thread- interesting stuff- and wanted to make a couple of quick comments.
The first is that propagation by cuttings could very well be the cause of what some have reportedly seen; the cause is very straightforward: introduction of plant viruses. While the virus wouldn't mutate the plant, it may cause debilitation when the plant is stressed. So, if a grower who is a smoker or uses the same cutting tools (or fingers/hands that were used with other infected crops- some of which may be asymptomatic carriers) introduces a virus to the plant, then the subsequent generations may also be infected.
If the virus is sufficiently potent (many are undoubtedly carried asymptomatically) or the plant is stressed, then the virus may manifest in the form of diminished growth.
However, I have personally noticed diminished growth in perpetual subculture of plants in sterile tissue culture; there's one line of plants (not cannabis) that I've subcultured for over 12 years now, and they're just not what they were. This is under the same conditions, same substrates, same everything- and since the tools and media are all sterile, it would seem highly unlikely the cause is due to a pathogen.
Stranger still is how the plants have never been exposed to exogenous hormones; these plants have been grown with nothing more than vitamins, minerals, water, and sugars for the entire time. But when I introduce low levels of hormones (typically IBA, to inspire roots) they regain much- but not all- of their lost vigor. I've only been running these recent experiments for the past 18 months or so, and I suspect if I added more IBA I could get a better response, since I use so little of the stuff.
madliberated
Member
Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment
cavendish (regular) bananas
navel oranges
I believe both of these are "clone only". I am positive about the oranges - navel oranges can ALL be traced to just one parent plant.
cavendish (regular) bananas
navel oranges
I believe both of these are "clone only". I am positive about the oranges - navel oranges can ALL be traced to just one parent plant.
madliberated
Member
bananna's and organges both produce seeds..
navel oranges make seeds? on what planet? A navel orange is a large, seedless, easy to peel mutant. Have you noticed the navel orange is a total freak that has a main fruit and a little secondary fruit tacked on? That's what causes the "navel" to form. Both are sterile. If humans disappear, the navel orange will too, and we will be forced to grow fingernails so we can peel mandarins (oh wait, we already disappeared).
Bananas, for their part, won't breed true from seed. They just won't. If you could get bananas reliably from seed, that would solve a major impending disaster for the global food supply. By the way, ever seen a banana "tree"? You can walk up to it and stick your finger into the trunk. Water dribbles out.
from wiki entry on the cavendish:
someone brought up apples too. No apple on this planet breeds true from seed, so every MacIntosh, golden rona, or pink lady you have eaten can be traced back to a single parent.
[SIZE=+3]1. [/SIZE]Q. Can I grow an orange tree from the seed of an orange? Will such a tree ever produce good-to-eat oranges and, if so, how long will it be before a tree from seed produces fruit? A. The production of citrus in this marginal hard-freeze areas should be accomplished by planting in a sunny, southern exposure area which can be protected during severe cold or plant in a container which can be moved to a protected area. The main reasons that seed are not used is because the length of citrus seedling juvenility (non-productiveness) can be 7 years or longer. Also, oranges, grapefruit and limes are not cold hardy enough to have a chance of surviving unless protected from below 25 degrees F.. If you want citrus, you should wait until March and purchase a satsuma (mandarin). However, if you insist on planting an orange seed, you should know that citrus seed have the unusual characteristic of producing nucellar seedlings which are vegetative (identical to the mother-tree) rather than genetic in origin. From each seed planted, three sprouts can emerge. Two will be fast growing sprouts which are vegetative in nature and will produce a tree exactly like the one from which the fruit was obtained. The center, weak sprout, if it emerges, is the genetic or different-than-its-parent growth which should be removed.
They might have gotten rid of this type of propagation but you can still grow a bananna tree from seed.
There are two main varieties of bananas, the fruit or sweet banana and the plantain. The fruit banana is eaten raw out of hand when it turns yellow and develops a succulent sweetness with a soft, smooth, creamy, yet firm pulp. The plantain, a cooking banana, is also referred to as the meal, vegetable or horse banana. Plantains have lower water content, making them drier and starchier than fruit bananas. Though the banana plant has the appearance of a sort of palm tree, and is often called a banana palm, it is actually considered a perennial herb. It dies back after each fruiting and produces new growth for the next generation of fruit. Bananas do not grow simply from seed. Man intervened long ago and crossed two varieties of African wild bananas, the Musa acuminata and the Musa baalbisiana, got rid of the many seeds that were an unpleasant presence, and improved the flavor and texture from hard and unappetizing to its present soft and irresistibly sweet flavor.
If you were to plant the seeds from an apple all 5 seeds would produce a different type of tree that would not be similar to the apple you just ate. peace out Headband707
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madliberated
Member
chance of actually producing an edible apple by sowing 5 seeds is close to zero. Chance of finding a single edible apple by sowing a whole acre is just a bit better than that. It takes many years and many resources to produce a new apple variety. In the old days the demand for cider resulted in great genetic diversity in apple orchards. Once in a while an eating apple shows up and that gets propagated asexually. In the case of the mcintosh, we see what happens when one of these cultivars resists environmental calamity (some very cold winters in the northeast USA), while all others are killed. New York State is just starting to produce a notable quantity of non mcintosh apples. They are usually found in farm markets. Further, because today's apple industry no longer depends on hard cider for income, only edible or juicing apples are grown, and only via asexual propagation (grafts). Any new varieties now have to be developed at great cost and effort.
as for navel oranges, why are you arguing with me over facts? the fact is that all navel oranges come from a single parent, and all cavendish (what you call "fruit banana") are genetically identical. It's also a fact that the navel orange is a seedless mutant with a baby growing out of its head, and that the mutation only happened once in human history and the genes have been reproduced faithfully since These facts are not controverted by any other facts about other types of orange or banana.
The cavendish is not the only "fruit banana" out there. Nor, in my opinion, is it the tastiest. BUT, it is a money maker and any other type of "fruit banana" is seen only in higher end stores. The threat from depending on just this one set of genes for such a huge portion of the global fresh fruit supply is very real and very scary. It's a big enough deal that certain countries feel they need to be prepared for this to protect their very existence.
I only bring these two up because they illustrate both the potential benefits and drawbacks of depending on asexual reproduction to propagate an important crop.
here is some wiki as a starting point:
