Recalculating My Harvest Date

[D.S. Toker. MD]

For years, ive believed that i could grow up until Nov. 1 because the weather doesnt deteriorate to freezing temps until then, Its turned out however that i didnt clearly understand the whole picture. I think i do now.

While the weather might permit me to grow to that date, it is of no benefit to the plant or to me. After measuring and carefully watching for the past couple of years, its clear that i dont get any real additional bud development or maturity after around Oct. 15, regaurdless of how warm the weather is. If grown until Nov.1, the buds look more mature, but they really arent a bit bigger, just a little darker in color.

I believe the reason for this is the strenght of the sunshine. By Oct. 15, im down to 11 hrs of daylight, but also, the sun is much farther from the earth than it is in may or even august. The strength of the sunlight on Oct 15 is so weak that even if the weather is warm, the buds dont really continue to develop. By Oct. 30, daylenth is down to under 10.5 hrs and is just too weak for bud development..

Im at 37+N and the farther north you travel, the more pronounced this effect becomes.

I wont be growing strains that dont finish by mid october anymore. I cant get them to mature beyond that date. It looks like theyre growing, but theyre not.

 

[easy]

More great info, always learn from your postings. Respects.

I found out the same big time after moving from the west coast to a northern climate. Even in a gh plants pretty much shut down flower production after mid October.

 

[Cool Moe]

D.S.,

I know you're a big fan of sensi star and was wondering what has been your experience with this strain outdoors. I'm in midwest at 38N and will be attempting my 1st outdoor grow this year. I am gonna put out 2-week seedlings in early June. I was planning to haul in organic soil for full soil replacement but your postings in another thread changed my mind and I will instead be amending existing soil. If I dig and loosen approximate 5 gallon holes, what would you recommend I add in? My location is corn/soy field perimeters and the existing soil seems good. Thanks for any input you can offer.

 

[LazLo]

DS
Your insights are always helpful. I'm 3 degrees N of you and mid Oct is my cutoff date for harvest. The only noticeable difference I see after that is more yellowed leaves. I may still be bringing in the ladies after that, but only due to weather. And those cooler dewy nights only increase the odds of mold.

 

[Guyute54]

I disagree with what your saying. I'm 99.9% sure it has to do with temps as the weather cools bud production will slow . If you have a heated greenhouse you can produce buds all year long.

But yes as the sun gets farther away from you the buds will be smaller but it still produces bud.

 

[michael68]

Seems about right, my grow season is usually done around the first of November at 35N, sun is still fairly powerful and warm.

 

[hamstring]

DS
I have no idea about bud production but what about maturity do you think that the buds increase resin production and potency if left to get darker? To me this is important because what I find is that the darker buds don’t have the bag appeal that the earlier greener in color ones do. I know that doesn’t make sense but try telling that to every smoker out there.

I always hear,” You have any of the light green stuff?" I would like to say listen dip shit it’s the same weed just harvested 10 days later.

If that’s not the case then I am jumping on the early bandwagon because people seem to think light green is the best but I always hear growers saying, “I would have liked to let it go another week for maximum maturity.”

Who knows but I have always lived by late is better than early.

 

[tony clifton]

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[.clunk]

I think I remember reading somewhere that anything below 7 degrees (celcius) at night starts shocking the roots slightly and it takes most of the next day to recover, so it makes sense that growth would slow exponentially at that time.

I seem to remember that you are growing in holes that you've dug and added potting soil to; one observation that I've made while growing at higher elevations (where the nights are cooler than down low) is that plants in plastic grow-bags do better than those in holes because the roots get too cold in the ground; black plastic heats up more and the roots hold the heat overnight, keeping things going longer and stronger.

 

[Guyute54]

I think I remember reading somewhere that anything below 7 degrees (celcius) at night starts shocking the roots slightly and it takes most of the next day to recover, so it makes sense that growth would slow exponentially at that time.

I seem to remember that you are growing in holes that you've dug and added potting soil to; one observation that I've made while growing at higher elevations (where the nights are cooler than down low) is that plants in plastic grow-bags do better than those in holes because the roots get too cold in the ground; black plastic heats up more and the roots hold the heat overnight, keeping things going longer and stronger.

A good layer of mulch will also keep your roots nice and warm on those colder nights.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

I disagree with what your saying. I'm 99.9% sure it has to do with temps as the weather cools bud production will slow . If you have a heated greenhouse you can produce buds all year long.

But yes as the sun gets farther away from you the buds will be smaller but it still produces bud.

Let me tell you why i believe that Guyute. Last year and the year before, i grew strains that didnt finish until late Oct. Because i havent felt that i was gaining anything after around the 15th, i picked out 4 buds on several plants to measure with a micrometer. I measured them every 4 or 5 days from the first of OCt. to the 30th of Oct. I recieved no significant/measurable growth in a single one of the buds after my measurements on Oct 18. For example, a bud measured on the 18th was 2.5" long and on Oct 30th, it was 2.5" long, yet it was darker and looked harder. A loupe inspection of resin glands revealed A LOSS in overall glands from the 18th to the 30th. I observed that same effect on 2 different strains for 2 consecutive grow seasons. Im convinced of it..

hamstring, I lived by that same understanding forever about "late is better than early" but my observations with a loupe indicated that i actually lost at least the appearance of resin glands in those last weeks of Oct. I dont think im gaining jack and may be loosing. Ive never had any issues with color.

Thanks Lazlo!

Cool Moe, your going to be happy with the star. After you harvest and smoke it, it will be the primary strain you grow from this point on. She loves the outdoors and is resistant to the satanically originated "blight"

.Clunk, you may be on to something there because soil temps are important.. Growers ar often anxious to get out there and plant and they make the terrible mistake of mulching in the spring which actually serves to prevent the soil from warming and it can really impact the growth of the plant. Cannabis needs 70 degree soil and bad things happen when its in soil cooler than that. Your wifes MEAT THERMOMETER is a critical pot growing tool. Dont plant outdoors until the meat is done.

Hey Micheal68, TonyC and easy. Thanks for the input.

 

[Guyute54]

Still not buying it. Even indoor bud late in production won't grow length it grows weight. And the glands probley got washed off or got hit with frost.

I understand that because of cooler weather that it might not pay to let your buds go past the mid oct mark, but that's something thats specific to your area. People that live at your same lat that are closer to the ocean for example will have much warmer weather in the fall and will have no problems with bud growth while your buds may be fizzling out.

But IMO it has nothing to do with the strength of the sun.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Ha! Well youre a hard sell Guyute54, but your points are well considered. If yourr the kind of guy that enjoys discussion and doesnt get worked up, I am too: lets discuss it some more.

I have another scenario that provides some evidence that sun strength impacts bud development so tell me your thoughts regaurding this scenario.

I have a mother plant that ive had for sometime. I have given a brother- in law a cut of the plant and he has a mom now and grows it in southern Geogia, about 31N. I have a grow buddy that lives in northern Pennsylvania, around 42 if i remember, that's also been given a cut and he has a mother and grows the weed.

We're all together on Thanksgiving, so we've brought our finest buds for a little friendly competition for "best grower" status. My brother in law was winning!! It was my strain - i showed him, taught him how to grow it and the bastards buds were bigger and harder than mine!??!!!!

But we quickly made another observation which isnt easy to dismiss. His buds grown at 31 are harder, bigger with a higher calyx to leaf ratio than my buds grown at 37+. My buds are bigger, harder with a higher calyx to leaf ratio than our buddy at 42. His buds are smaller, spongier and leafier. His level of potency and the production of resin glands on his plants is and has been in every case, less than either mine or my brother and laws. We all used the same soil for 2 years and the results were the same. His buds are leafy and spongy, my in laws are harder than a rock.

We have concluded the difference is caused by the strength of the sunshine at the different lattitudes. We are further conviced that the grower at 42n can never grow the quality of bud as the in law at 31 simply because he lacks lighting intenisity, especailly during flowering.. What is your conclusion?

 

[Claude Hopper]

We have concluded the difference is caused by the strength of the sunshine at the different lattitudes. We are further conviced that the grower at 42n can never grow the quality of bud as the in law at 31 simply because he lacks lighting intenisity, especailly during flowering.. What is your conclusion?

I think the more northerly grower simply needs a earlier flowering start to achieve quality buds by the time that cold temperatures start shutting them down.

I believe the problem lies in that that daylength during the summer increases as you go north. The longer summer days delay the onset of flowering.

This season I am running mostly Nordic varieties because they trigger with longer daylength than most common varieties. I'm expecting some very early harvests.

 

[easy]

.Clunk, you may be on to something there because soil temps are important.. Growers ar often anxious to get out there and plant and they make the terrible mistake of mulching in the spring which actually serves to prevent the soil from warming and it can really impact the growth of the plant. Cannabis needs 70 degree soil and bad things happen when its in soil cooler than that. Your wifes MEAT THERMOMETER is a critical pot growing tool. Dont plant outdoors until the meat is done....

Thanks for mentioning that, it's something that I wasn't giving proper respect too.

More excellent points from DS and CH in above postings. I found out the same first hand about what was discussed but wasn't really sure about what I was seeing, good to hear what others who know feel about it too.

You make good points too Guyute, just think that it's too cut and dry to just say "I'm 99.9% sure it has to do with temps as the weather cools bud production will slow. If you have a heated greenhouse you can produce buds all year long."... I'm 45n and 3.5k+ in elevation, and know ghs, and I don't believe there's any way in hell I could produce bud of any decent quantity and quality without spending an inordinate amount of cash for extra lighting, heating, and humidity control. Probably would even have to transport them in and out of my lights room just to keep them active. Sun alone just isn't strong or consistent enough for decent flower production.

I probably had similar to guyutes views until moving from sf bay to a harsh northern zone. You truly can't respect what these northern growers endure until doing so. It can be quite humbling to a life long cali grower. Minus 20 growing is a bitch.

But with above said... I haven't tried to do it so don't know for sure if truly possible or not. Just for me it didn't seem to be worth all the troubles or expense to see if it could happen. Respects to any that can and do. Peace.

 

[Claude Hopper]

I believe that DS's points about weakened sunlight at higher latitudes has some merits. I really don't feel that there's as much impact from a weaker sun (stand in my cornfield in July and you WILL fry) as there is from the effects of later flowering.

June 21st is 30-35 minutes longer where I live compared to DS, about 5 degrees of latitude further north.. Thats a significant difference when we are comparing flowering times for a photoperiod specific plant.

If the two of us are growing cuttings from the same mother his will begin to flower before mine. This leaves mine in the unenviable position of flowering later in a place that will cool down sooner.

So we have to change our approach. I need to look for a plant that begins to flower during longer days in order to get a plant that will be equally as mature as the ones DS harvests on Oct 15.

October 15ths a bit late for me. My plants better be done at least a week earlier, as I can see frost the 1st of October.

My friends in Denmark are growing some delightful weed at 55n. Its all a matter of plants adapted to their available photoperiod.

 

[Claude Hopper]

Here's a good day length "explorer" that will instantly show you the day length for any particular latitude.
Day Length Explorer

.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Yeah, that tool helped to confirm the fact that after Oct 20 or so, i recieve about as much light as the eskimo's.....or at least I think thats what my plants are telling me.

 

[Claude Hopper]

Yeah, that tool helped to confirm the fact that after Oct 20 or so, i recieve about as much light as the eskimo's.....or at least I think thats what my plants are telling me.

LOL!

After October 20th I feel like I'm living with Eskimos (sometimes)

It sucks, I have nice hot summers, ample rain and some of the best soil anywhere on this planet. I kick myself now when I look back on the years I struggled with bagseed genetics, likely bred in some tropical place. They just didn't trigger into flowering soon enough to beat the season ending low light, cold and damp.

 

[Guyute54]

DS my guess would be the amount of sun exposure. Plants in ful sun will always have bigger and tighter buds than those that get blocked out by shade.

And as I remember the suns rays don't get weaker in the winter, the sun is actually closer to us in the winter than it is in the summer.

Now I am sure that the amount of daylight during the fall will slow budding down some, I just don't think it slows it down like the cold wether does.

And for your buddy that grows at 42 lat have him grow some afghan's he will have some rock hard nugs then.