Replace hydroton with rubber mulch

[petemoss]

I've been using hydroton in my cab E&F for several months now. The results are OK, nothing spectacular, just comparable to my old hand watered coco results. But then I read that you can't re-use the hydroton indefinitely. The clay balls retain salts and cannot be readily washed clean. And they are not completely inert; hydroton initially absorbs calcium and magnesium from the nutrient solution. Maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age, but it's become a chore to drive down to the hydro store, lug heavy bags of dusty clay balls home and then rinse out the dusty powder in my backyard or bathtub (when the wife is not around). So no love for hydroton here.

Fatman, my new nutrient guru says that hydroton is just a so-so hydro medium and many alternatives are better including plastic scraps, bio balls and rubber mulch. I saw some red rubber mulch at Home Depot and decided to give it a try. I don't expect any big improvements over hydroton, but it's more convenient, less maintenance and cheaper. This bag was less than $8 and very light.

 

[CareFreeLivin]

Great idea. Interested to hear others input on this...

Got any action pics??

 

[habeeb]

wait a minute, where is fatman ??? I loved his knowledge, I have a paper saved of alot of his info, like 44 pages or something to that extent.. his knowledge is extensive to say the least..

anyways, yes fatman has said hydroton is not a good media choice, and something inert like marbles, or rubber mulch or a couple others I cant think of are alot better choices to use then hydroton..

I would love to see how your results go.. I am wondering if you talk to fatman directly, as I know he hung out in the aero section alot, so Im not sure if her was talking more about using rubber mulch for a aero system as they are constantly being sprayed, and would just love to see if your flood times change, as I dont see rubber mulch holding any moisture really....

bookmarked

 

[Young Pumpkin]

Pea Gravel

Pea Gravel

I've seen the black rubber mulch at wally world. But I wondered what the process was to make it. Even just cutting it up Im worried that there might be some lubricant on the blades or something else involved that might not be a worry if used as intended. Sure thought about it but haven't been that brave. That label on the bag worries me tho, "color lasts for up to 12 years"? where does the color go?

Im just now a year into dwc and I've used pea gravel and/or river rock the whole time. Fill up a net pot and rinse it under a hose or faucet. Its pretty smooth so it shakes outta the root ball pretty easy to reuse. (rinse again) What doesn't come out gets thrown away with the root ball. Does real good IMHO. A few bux a bag at any garden store. The big dis-advantage to me........(drum roll please) its heavy. Comes in a 40 or 50 lb bag. Beats hydroton by a long shot to me. One more way to stay outta the grow store tho.

I didnt know the H stuff floated tho until someone gave me some. I used the rest as filler. Damn stuff is expensive too. Ive actually wondered about glass marbles too but Im strange like that. Searching on pea gravel or the like wont turn up much here but its as inert as can be. I can see maybe for an apartment dweller or the like some instances where getting a bag of gravel in could be an issue but for me I'll take pea gravel any day. Maybe just something to consider......my 2 cents

One other thing bothers me, your bag says "made from old tires". But its red and most tires aren't red. Im assuming and guessing in conjunction with the ""color lasts 12 years label" that this has had color added. Not sure if thats good at all. Might wanna try black maybe??? I dont wanna chance something leeching into my water. But thats just me. (OK, no more after thoughts........)

Give Pea A Chance..........(couldn't resist, sorry)

 

[petemoss]

It will take a few weeks before any plants in rubber mulch go into the flower cab. I couldn't resist potting up one rooted clone to see how it likes the new medium. I usually hand water for a week or so before putting the young plants into the flower cab. So it will be a couple of months before this plant is chopped.

The rubber mulch is made of old recycled tires and I thought it would be little chunks of soft rubber material. But actually the chunks are very smooth and hard. Water just beads up and slides right off the hard surface, spilling out of the bottom of the pot as soon as I sprinkle some water on top. Seems they melt down the rubber tires and reform it into a hard plastic material. There is still some fabric cord embedded in the mulch as you can see in the pic below. This is a Blue Cheese clone, very hard to root due to its thin woody stem.

 

[petemoss]

Okay, I found the thread where fatman talks about hydroton in the RIU forum:

Originally Posted by bran1981
So if hydrotons are a poor medium, than what would you consider the best medium to use in ponics?
[fatman]:
"That is pretty much a loaded question that is bound to cause a ruckus. Some growers they say an inert media simply mean that any medium that is not organic is and therefore generally mean the following medias are nonorganic and therefore inert.

Water
Moss
Saw dust
vermiculite
Rockwool
lava rock
pop clay or HEC
perlite
Gravel
marbles/bio balls/jacks/shredded plastic/rubber mulch
Air

Each of these growing mediums has both good and bad points.
Moss is for amateur growers because it is the most forgiving.
Rockwool is mainly for graduated growers since it is the most temperamental.
Pop clay or HEC is for advanced growers and needs nutrient sprinklers or drips, or better yet flood and drain..
Lava rock is not forgiving and can contain toxic minerals from its volcanic origin. It has sharp edges that are not kind to the roots. Gravel is used instead.
Hydroton we already discussed.
Basically the mediums I would recommend in order from worse choice to best are in the list above. Worse at the top and best at the bottom. IMHO an inert hydroponic medium should have a zero CEC, be non absorbent, non adsorbent, have no nutritional valve, have no buffering capacity, be nonbacteria friendly, easily disinfectable and allow for plenty of oxygen in the gaseous form. The only medium that fits all those requirements for a good medium is air. The only physical mediums that come close that will also support a plant physically and are inert mediums as long as they are not porous are some marbles/bio balls/jacks/shredded plastic/rubber mulch"

..... Originally Posted by bran1981
I have never heard of using rubber mulch before. That stuff wouldn't cause any issues with the ferts. There isn't anything in the rubber that would leech out? As with the gravel, would the small gravel people use in there fish tanks work good?

[fatman]: "Old tire rubber has been known to leach a few solvent compounds but mainly they leach cemicals picked up from road travel. Mainly Pertroleum products from the asphalt etc. The way to avoid that is to buy the red or brown rubber chunks instead of the black."

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

Interesting idea, tagging along to see how it works. I also hate hydroton.

 

[Rowdy420]

The way plastics off gas there is no way that crap is touching my medicine, I love hydroton and find that washing it in a washing machine with hydrogen peroxide cleans the little buggers off pretty well. When they are dirty you can see the salt build up but, after washing they are as good as new. I have been using my hydroton for over ten years and have had no pathogen type problems. What is there to hate about this stuff? Hope you find a medium you like.

Good luck, peace.

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Plastics aren't touching your medicine?
If you grow hydro, your netpots, trays, pumps, hoses, pumps and res are plastic.
Either I'm confused or you're a drama queen.

 

[Maj.Cottonmouth]

The way plastics off gas there is no way that crap is touching my medicine, I love hydroton and find that washing it in a washing machine with hydrogen peroxide cleans the little buggers off pretty well. When they are dirty you can see the salt build up but, after washing they are as good as new. I have been using my hydroton for over ten years and have had no pathogen type problems. What is there to hate about this stuff? Hope you find a medium you like.

Good luck, peace.

Not sure if your question was directed at me but I am going to answer either way What I hate about hydroton most is that it keeps breaking down. The balls scrape against each other and make dust and chips. They are porous so you can never be sure it is totally flushed even after washing it several times and I don't really want to spend time cleaning hydroton more than once if I can help it.

 

[petemoss]

As fatman has explained, any medium has its pluses and minuses. I've used soil, peat moss, rockwool, lava rocks, silica stones, coco, oasis cubes, perlite, vermiculite and recently hydroton. They all work and there is no reason to hate or fall in love with any particular medium. Fatman and Young Pumpkin prefer to use inert hydroponic media that won't interact with nutrient solution and that's all I need, something that will physically support a plant without any complications. Something I can use straight out of the bag without rinsing or pre-treating. Why? Because I'm cheap and lazy lol!

FWIW, I found the part where fatman talks about reusing hydroton:


"First off an explantation of Hydroton.

Hydroton is made up of small red clay marbles. Another variety is not rounded marbles but irregular-shaped small red clay pebbles.

Most artificial mediums retain positive ion charges, called cations. These positive charges change the electrical balance in the nutrient solution, affecting the entire workings of nutrients on plants, and the effect is not easy for a grower to detect until production starts to drop off.

Experiments have shown that after 4 weeks in a nutrient solution, the Hydroton absorbs 12-15% calcium cations (Ca++) and a proportional amount of potassium cations (K+). It takes about 4 weeks in pure water to wash out the Ca ++ and a lot longer to flush out the K+.

Hydroton claims its pellets are made out of a neutral pH clay and therefore the claim is that they have an extremely low cation exchange capacity.
....
So in reality Hydroton is just a inert mediun as in it provided no nutrients through its decomposition as does organic matter in soil, however it still has catonic exchange capacity but in genearl only half of that of a rich organic soil or peat moss medium. Just not as much as soil or peat moss. Basically put Hydroton is not a good hydroponic medium, nor is peat moss. They are essentially like a nutritionless soil in too many aspects."

 

[Sgt.Stedenko]

Hey Petemoss,
That's good info to know about the K and Ca cations.
Thanks

 

[petemoss]

Not sure if your question was directed at me but I am going to answer either way What I hate about hydroton most is that it keeps breaking down. The balls scrape against each other and make dust and chips. They are porous so you can never be sure it is totally flushed even after washing it several times and I don't really want to spend time cleaning hydroton more than once if I can help it.

Hi Maj.Cottonmouth,
That's exactly how I feel about hydroton. It's the dust that makes those little clay balls so messy to work with. I've discovered that dust+water= muddy mess in the res!

I love to take pics of my girls and watch them grow. Here's a shot of my mothers&clones cabinet. Six bonzai moms with rooting clones in front and rooted clones vegging under CFL's on the right. Only one clone is growing in rubber mulch so far.

 

[foomar]

Ran out of hydroton once and filled one ebb and flow pot with broken tougthened glass from an old patio door.

Once sieved into 4 - 6 mm cubes its clean and the edges are not as sharp as you might imagine , can be squeezed hard with minimal bleeding.

Expected the roots to become damaged by the heaveing action on flooding , however they all finished equally well , from seed so subjective and not repeated.

Guess its lifespan could be forever , pretty much inert and non absorbant , easily cleaned and sterilised , available FOC from glaziers and window fitters yards by the barrow.

Only problem is the weight as density is very high , not one for the attic grower.

 

[ninjagaiden]

with minimal bleeding.

 

[Haps]

I think that stuff will work OK if you clean it well to start with. No fucking way it will be anything but a bitch to clean so I guess you throw it away. I looked at it a few years ago, but I have no reason to try anything new, my hydroton and lava rocks do not sit in solution, and they clean up real easy. My 7 year old hydroton work just like new. My dog eats the broken ones, without my permission.
H

 

[Young Pumpkin]

The more I think about it that "color" thing bothers me. Remember its intended use. An outdoor ground covering. But indoors there will be much more contact with water and nutes so I wonder. And I'm guessing but Haps may have a point on the cleaning issue. An interesting experiment would be to fill a container up, pour in what U can of distilled water. Let it sit for a while in "our" conditions and see if any mold forms? Or rust? Whats the PH and PPM? Are the fibers of unknown origin? Might as well put a plant in it too, LOL.

Speaking of "tires". On a car that sits for a long while, or is even driven minimally, dry rot can set in. Forcing a change of tires no matter how good the remaining tread is. That 12 year thing seems like a long time. A bit further back most most rubber comes from rubber trees so really, inert? Or is it synthetic rubber made from chemicals? Am I paranoid enuff yet about this? Just thought I'd try and get all the cards on the table. I wish you well and want to watch too along with any measurements that may differ from your norm.

 

[petemoss]

Thanks for stopping by, Haps and Young Pumpkin. I think the red mulch will be okay. It's not as hard as I first thought and seems to be holding some moisture on the surface of the chunks. I'm watering just a few drops to keep the young roots moist and expect the roots to hit the bottom of the 4" pots in about three days. I'll probably let the clone grow to 3"-4" before I throw it into the flower cab. There it will get flooded three times during lights on.

This first pot of mulch I just used right out of the bag without rinsing. I'm soaking a cup of mulch in tap water and will check the EC and Ph tomorrow but so far the water is still clear.

 

[w2008]

hi there petemoss, it will be interesting to see if anything alters, how much does the mulch weigh? nice looking babies too, good luck, cheers oz

 

[petemoss]

I cut open a chunk of the mulch and it was black inside! You were right, Young Pumpkin, there was something fishy about the red color. It looks to me that they shredded old tires and then dipped the shards in red paint. If I had known that, maybe I wouldn't have tried this stuff. Let's just hope for the best and trust that the fatman wouldn't steer me wrong! Oh I weighed the bag and it was 18 lbs and 0.8 cubic feet.