ice boxes and chillers

[wolfeman]

I don't believe anything a vendor has to say unless I've done some research first.

The claim is an Ice box plumbed to a proper water chiller will eliminate the heat from a 1000w HPS bulb. True or false??

My current set up is a 10x10 room with 4x1000. I want to go to 6x1000 (that's when my results were best- that was actually 5x10 room with 3x1000). I always thought it was stupid to pump AC into a room that is being heated constantly, but what choice did we have?

The concept of the ice box makes perfect sense to me. Remove the heat before it enters the room!~Duh!

The only drawback to this seems to be that I will no longer be able to heat my house for free. There's always a trade off somewhere isn't there....

I'm considering an icebox for each light; tandem set up meaning three lights/ iceboxes per 6" can fan. One place I looked at online said the air coming out will be cooler than the air that went in!! I may not even need an air conditioner, just depends on the heat that the dehu generates.

Sound too good to be true....tho, I would love to be wrong.

 

[David762]

I have always liked the idea of using aluminum-finned thermocouples, the kind that are used in those electronic Coleman coolers. They suck up a lot of current usually 8 Amps @ 12 VDC. But under optimum conditions, they will have a Temperature differential of 50 degrees Fahrenheit from one side to the other.

I have never seen heat exchangers or AC designed to use these, but their small size and solid state design would seem to be ideal for certain grow room|grow box operations.

 

[green_thumb...]

From what I've researched on ice boxes you need a 1/4hp of chiller per 1k and it pretty much becomes your AC,they even have a thermostat that controls fan speed cuz the faster the fan goes the warmer the air coming out and if all is in order the heat from your dehuey won't matter,they also have a deputy that is water cooled so you can run it off the cold water manifold the ice boxes are hooked up to.

I plan to go the same rout cuz a sealed cooled room sounds like a prime set up.

Hope this helped in some way.

 

[the_extremist]

Just be aware that you'll need a commercial grade chiller, not a regular old EcoPlus or the like. And you're going to need to place it outside so it can actually get rid of all that heat.

Also if you're going to set up a chiller, look into a heat exchanger and a large reservoir instead of having to dick around with those goofy iceboxes.

I tried to go the watercooled route with ice boxes and was not happy with it. I ended up going with a mini split instead.

 

[Rowdy420]

I have a 2hp chiller that works great. I used to have it hooked up like the company suggests but in my opinion it pointless to try and cool the light bulbs. I now use a inline fan to to pull the hot air from the hoods like a traditional set-up, I use 4- 8"XXL hoods. All hoods are run with an 8" FKD Fantech inline connected with fresh air from outside and exhausts hot air very efficiently. I use the 2 icebox's in my tent connected with a T that an inline drives to keep temps under control, you have to watch the icebox's because they will drip condensation like mad if you don't have a dehumidifier running. There is alot of expense in purchasing and getting the system to run properly but, when it is hooked up it lowers your stress levels in the summer months for sure.
Not to discourage anyone but my first chiller was sent out with a pin hole leak in the refrigerant line, supposedly due to shipping. It also had a crap relay in it that I was able to replace myself (I'm an electrician). As I said before not trying to discourage but, you have to understand that my luck with products is less than optimal and if something is going to break it'll be on me! Chillking did replace the unit and I've had no problems with the new one, thank goodness!

PS I also run the CO2 generator from them also and love it!

 

[wolfeman]

From what I've researched on ice boxes you need a 1/4hp of chiller per 1k and it pretty much becomes your AC,they even have a thermostat that controls fan speed cuz the faster the fan goes the warmer the air coming out and if all is in order the heat from your dehuey won't matter,they also have a deputy that is water cooled so you can run it off the cold water manifold the ice boxes are hooked up to.

I plan to go the same rout cuz a sealed cooled room sounds like a prime set up.

Hope this helped in some way.

Thanks greenthumb...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. According to Chillking, I will need their 2HP chiller (2500 bucks!). The guys at my hydro store say all I need will be a 1/2HP chiller (500bucks) to do what I want, and chillking is just upselling me. Who to trust?

 

[wolfeman]

extremist, would you mind going into a little more detail about your comments?

What I'm considering is an icebox on each hood (six total) being fed with a suitable pump that draws from a 50GA res. My understanding to this point is that this set up would extract the heat from the lights just fine and the heat(or most of it anyway) will never enter the room. If this won't work, I would really like to know.

Care to tell me just what a mini split is? That's a term I haven't heard- (or, it went in one ear and out the other!)

Wouldn't running a heat exchanger be the same as using AC? Meaning, we heat the room up while constantly fighting to keep the temps down? Or, is an exchanger that much more efficient?

Just be aware that you'll need a commercial grade chiller, not a regular old EcoPlus or the like. And you're going to need to place it outside so it can actually get rid of all that heat.

Also if you're going to set up a chiller, look into a heat exchanger and a large reservoir instead of having to dick around with those goofy iceboxes.

I tried to go the watercooled route with ice boxes and was not happy with it. I ended up going with a mini split instead.

 

[Oldmac]

Hello Wolfeman,

There is no way that a 1/2hp chiller will cool 4- 1000w lights let alone 6 of them. Rowdy420 is correct that you will need a 2hp commercial chiller to get the job done. He is also right about the condensation issue, you need to mount the IceBox downstream (air-out side of hood) or risk cracking or popping your bulbs.

In sizing an AC system for your setup, you need to treat each light as an electric heater. Since there is 3.413 BTU/Watt your six light setup would generate 20,478 BTUs of heat and that is the min size of AC unit to consider. That becomes a fairly large AC with energy consumption to match.

IMHO the chiller is more efficent then the AC.

I believe that "the extremist" is referring to a split AC system, Mitsubishi makes some good ones tho I'm not sure how big (BTU wise) they make them. The compressor and condenser coil are mounted outside the building and the evaporator and fan is mounted in your room. There is no need for any ventilation and you only have 2 soft copper lines that carry refrigerant to deal with.

I belive your idea is very workable. You should consider using the hood insulation covers that Hydro Inovation make also, since alot of heat is radiated from the hoods.

Good luck and good growing.

@David762; the reason you don't see electronic thermocouples used for large scale cooling is that they consume too much power per BTU of cooling.

 

[the_extremist]

The mini split is a split A/C system. My Mr Slim is awesome.

It's true that if you keep the chiller and res out of the grow area that it'll cut down on heat in the garden, but that chiller takes all the heat from the lights and blows it out it's ass end. And so if you don't either place the chiller outside in open air or at least do some serious ventilation of the area where the chiller is, it will sit in its own exhaust heat and will not exchange heat properly, ending up with a reduced cooling capacity.

 

[Oldmac]

The mini split is a split A/C system. My Mr Slim is awesome.
That is a Mitsubishi and it is one of the most energy efficent A/C systems avaiable. (great rotary compressor)

It's true that if you keep the chiller and res out of the grow area that it'll cut down on heat in the garden,
Dah, common scence that the chiller needs to be oustide the room. You would not mount your compressor/condensor coil in the same room and expect it to work would you?

but that chiller takes all the heat from the lights and blows it out it's ass end.
This is where you are wrong. An A/C system blows all it's heat out it's ass end, a chiller system like this has a rez, some heat is dissapated there. It is harder to raise the water temp then air temp, this is why a chiller can be more efficent.

And so if you don't either place the chiller outside in open air or at least do some serious ventilation of the area where the chiller is, it will sit in its own exhaust heat and will not exchange heat properly, ending up with a reduced cooling capacity.

You need to keep in mind that there is never one best way to do anything when it comes to growing. Life and growing are very much alike, there is always a compromise. Even tho I know the split A/C system is more energy efficent for cooling, in one of my partnered grows we found it better to use a windowless A/C unit in our sealed room so it would serve as dehumidifier at the same time and it was easier to run the condensation line out the room to a drain. All the heat generated goes out an 6" hose from the room to a 10" exhaust trunk line that handles exhaust from all our rooms.

In my personal grow my mother room is 4'x6' with a 400w MH and is one of three rooms in a fall out shelter. I found it easier to use an inline fan mounted on the hood blowing air thru the light and then thru an Icebox.

More then one way to skin a cat. What works best depends on an individual's perticular situation.

BTW I still beleieve, IMHO, that a well designed chiller setup can provide cooling more efficently then an A/C system.