Are feminized seed less potent, and if so, why?

[Baba Ku]

less potency on female vs reg is just silly. If Genetics are good then the kids will be just as potent.
But the hermie issue is still argued by many. Many very experienced growers here at ic will swear there only hermies after years are from femmed. Many others love them.
I think some strains are much less stable and more likely to herm. Direct S1 seeds from "herman" should never be taken i thought only use the pollen on other stable females.
My own opinion is that femms can be great but there are more unstable strains and more testing should be done. My only herms were from femms but im sure ill be told "grower error". I got males from thseeds mk ultra. got pics too. pure males!

Femminized seeds DO NOT produce males.
Knowing this to be true, there has to be other reasons for what you saw with the MK ultra. Be it a hermaphrodite you saw, or perhaps not given the seeds you thought you bought.
I too had a male grow from supposed femmed seeds, but I let the breeder know that I know better than that...and they sent me the proper seeds and an apology for fucking up.
There will be NO males come from a pack of actual femmed seeds.

Lots of people swear to things...because it requires very little of anything to swear.

 

[CalcioErba2004]

This is the place where you lose touch with the way things really are.
It seems that you feel that you are starting something that would not have started had you not fooled around with it. That is a totally false assumption.
If you had not forced the female to show the latent held intersex gene, you wouldn't know she carried it. How would you know if she doesn't show it during flower?
It matters not whether you force the plant to express the trait or not...it has the trait in it (as do the vast majority all cannabis females) and it can and will pass it on just the same regardless of whether you forced the trait to express or not.

ANd I mentioned the male because you said we have nothing to worry about when using males...I submit you have lots more to worry about using a male you know nothing about, than a female you can be relatively certain about.

I'm not losing touch with anything. Look man I see a picture in my head, its in my head. That statement is a theory, hence why I said my belief. Is it gospel? No it isnt. Science isn't gospel, its a collection of theories that we try and disprove or say are true. My statement is mearly my personal theory of the vast unkown science of genetics.

Its also funny how you repeat what i said and what other people have said and still want to argue with us...like I said the OP had is question answered. I know that fem seeds are not natural and I am a naturalist, Lets just leave it at we agree to disagree. Keep it danK Baba Ku!

 

[Baba Ku]

We can be civil, but I never think it very healthy to agree to disagree. I like to know what I am talking about, instead of going on what I "feel" or logically deduce. I happen to understand how very flawed the human condition can be, and relying on our brains alone is not real smart.

I have not repeated what you have, I am stating something entirely different than what you are. I could see where some of your mistaking was coming from and tried to help you understand...specifically about the part where you think once you force a female it allows it to pass on intersex more than it would have had it not been forced. I see another member saw the same thing I did, and also tried to help you understand better.

You should also be aware that feminized seeds are as natural as can be. It happens all the time in cannabis populations. It may be that some of the field won't hermie when a small drought came, yet others did hermie as a survival response to the lack of hydration.
If you would chose one of the plants that did not hermie when stressed as it's siblings did, and use it to breed with, there is a good possibility that it will pass on the trait at a similar level to how it holds it. In other words, it's kids probably won't hermie with the same level of stress.

Now, if you were to increase the drought...perhaps making it last far longer than it did the first grow...it may be that some of the plants that didn't show intersex the previous season would indeed show it now. It took a higher level of stress to bring about the expression. But, just because it did hermie this year, does not mean that it now has a higher propensity to pass on the trait. It will pass it on exactly as it did the first season you bred with it when it didn't hermie.

This all stems from the fact that we are NOT changing the genetic map of the plants at all when we force for pollen. We are simply manipulating hormones and autosomnal responses that are outside of the genetic map.

It's all good. I am not trying to bust your balls...just telling it as I know it. I refuse to remain ignorant, as ignorance is the ONE SINGLE PROBLEM ISSUE we have in the world of cannabis. If the general population wasn't so ignorant about the facts, we would not be seen as criminals. I am not a criminal, and I refuse to remain ignorant.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

lets see some backup on your end, hoosier.

 

[CFP65]

Did anyone ever produce evidence that S1 seeds from "herman" made more "hermies" than the other S1 seeds. (that is provided that the parent stock came from rock steady plants)
i have never seen any 100plants+ grown in one batch from "Herman" S1.s
it would be nice to se actual evidence in the form of a grow diary with pics and all

the only way i could se this happen was a permanent alteration of the autosomes caused by the STS treatment that in turn was passed on by "Herman" and if that could be done, then the opposite would maby be possible to.
that would be to boost the female autosomes or permanently alterate/hinder the male autosomes in the non STS.ed plant in the cross to be passed on to the offspring.
just a thought


by the way, i have not seen any decline in the potency from femmed seeds

 

[CalcioErba2004]

I have not repeated what you have, I am stating something entirely different than what you are. I could see where some of your mistaking was coming from and tried to help you understand...specifically about the part where you think once you force a female it allows it to pass on intersex more than it would have had it not been forced. I see another member saw the same thing I did, and also tried to help you understand better.

You should also be aware that feminized seeds are as natural as can be. It happens all the time in cannabis populations. It may be that some of the field won't hermie when a small drought came, yet others did hermie as a survival response to the lack of hydration.
If you would chose one of the plants that did not hermie when stressed as it's siblings did, and use it to breed with, there is a good possibility that it will pass on the trait at a similar level to how it holds it. In other words, it's kids probably won't hermie with the same level of stress.

I understand what you are saying Baba Ku but I don't understand why you are reffering to a male that i don't know about...

Cannabis is a subdioecious with monoecious occuring in the population naturally. I'm sorry I don't buy "forcing" a plant to throw male flowers is acceptable when it does it naturally. All one is doing is bring that trait out from deep down inside where someone worked their ass off to hide it. Then turning around and trying to bury again by crossing it to another female that has had her genes worked to bury that trait. This is the only reason why the trait is hard to bring out in fem seeds. I am saying that it is there and there will be offspring that will get triggered easier because of it. Why is there one skinny person is a family of obese people? He/She eats the same food, sits on his ass the same as his family, but he doesn't gain a lb. Why is there a blonde haired child when both parents are dark haired? Because somewhere in their ancestry there were people with blonde hair.

Genetics play a much larger roll than just what each plant expresses as it grows. It carries a history with it and making offspring from it can trigger these expressions that were bred out to begin with. It is in my belief that once that plant is triggered, it has found the path to the trait and will most likely pass this known path on to the offspring.

Can a male pass on the trait? Yes it can! I am not denying that at all! They are just as likely to pass the trait on as females but nobody is forcing them commercially to make seeds.

In the end the OPs question was answered. No they are not less potent than the regular versions. I personally prefer regular versions to fem versions if they are available. To be able to see the expression of a variety as a male is IMVHO a good experience for all growers.

How are you not repeating what I said? Like I said, lets agree to disagree. Keep it danK Baba Ku!

 

[Baba Ku]

The reason I brought up the drought scenario was to show how the cannabis plant can "force" itself to produce stamen. Some have it so latent in their genetic maps that they need to have some extreme "forcing" administered or it won't show and produce stamen.
In the case of the drought, the plant naturally blocked the hormones to produce pistols and male stamen were the result. Applying STS or CS is simply mimicking what happens naturally to begin with. We are simply manipulating hormonal responses.
I suppose one could technically say that by man manipulating these hormonal responses it was an "unnatural" act...but the mechanisms in place are quite natural and normal. Buy it or not.

In any event, the next sentences past your italics are the ones that show a misunderstanding.

All one is doing is bring that trait out from deep down inside where someone worked their ass off to hide it. Then turning around and trying to bury again by crossing it to another female that has had her genes worked to bury that trait. This is the only reason why the trait is hard to bring out in fem seeds. I am saying that it is there and there will be offspring that will get triggered easier because of it.

See, a plant that has the trait way down deep, will keep it way down deep...as far as what it passes on to the progeny. It makes not one bit of difference that you forced it to show what it has.
Nothing we can do to change what it passes on if it is used as a parent. If the plant never shows intersex in any stress, short of treatment with a solution, then chances are very high that it's progeny will also not show intersex.

You aren't unraveling anything that a previous breeder did, is my main point. Not at all.

 

[Donald Mallard]

now now you cant spit your dummy/pacifier out just becouse someone disagrees's !!! nothing i have said is incorrect you can try and put a posstive spin on it as much as you like, but summed up your doin what i said .................... something holy unnatural !!!

end of !!!

thats all im sayin !!! its not natural!! its not normal!! its not what the plant wants to do... !!

hehehe ,, gotta say i love the statement

"its not what the plant wants to do "

funny stuff ....

 

[jm420]

"its not what the plant wants to do "

I'm sure it does'nt want to be smoked either

 

[Donald Mallard]

yep ,,
if i were a plant i wouldnt want to be cooped up inside ,,
being an outdoor guy and all ...

 

[headband 707]

You staying away from them is fine...but how responsible is it for you to make such a statement and have absolutely nothing that would back it up? It was a pretty blanket statement to make, and quite wrong as well.

Bro lets talk responsiblity here for one second if you really want to go down this road.. Your actually telling a grower to buy fem seeds LOL..? How fucking responsible is that? What level of skill does this grower have and if his seeds do turn who is going to pay for it ,,YOU??I don't know a lot of growers that don't run into problems in their grow DO YOU?? lol.. nah it's way more irresponsible to tell a person to go ahead with BULLSHIT like your suggesting...
I think you like to argue no matter what is the impression I get from your threads LOL LOL LOL>>>> Me I really couldn't care less lol.. Argue away till it hurts lol.. The world of seeds is pretty basic whether you think so or not.. Just because things have worked out for you doesn't mean they have worked out for others, and anyone with any brains knows you don't try and inject your experiences into others that have not had the same results. The ONLY reason I even entertain the whole hermie thing is because I read that DJ Shorts likes hermie bud. I have not had the same experience . I can respect he has had this happen for him just hasn't happened for me so until it does I will believe exactly what I believe thanks though.. LOL LOL...Let me also say again I HATE AF/fem seeds just incase you missed it LOL. peace out Headband707

 

[Baba Ku]

Bro lets talk responsiblity here for one second if you really want to go down this road.. Your actually telling a grower to buy fem seeds LOL..? How fucking responsible is that? What level of skill does this grower have and if his seeds do turn who is going to pay for it ,,YOU??I don't know a lot of growers that don't run into problems in their grow DO YOU?? lol.. nah it's way more irresponsible to tell a person to go ahead with BULLSHIT like your suggesting...
I think you like to argue no matter what is the impression I get from your threads LOL LOL LOL>>>> Me I really couldn't care less lol.. Argue away till it hurts lol.. The world of seeds is pretty basic whether you think so or not.. Just because things have worked out for you doesn't mean they have worked out for others, and anyone with any brains knows you don't try and inject your experiences into others that have not had the same results. The ONLY reason I even entertain the whole hermie thing is because I read that DJ Shorts likes hermie bud. I have not had the same experience . I can respect he has had this happen for him just hasn't happened for me so until it does I will believe exactly what I believe thanks though.. LOL LOL...Let me also say again I HATE AF/fem seeds just incase you missed it LOL. peace out Headband707

OK, you are a hater...we get it. Thing is, your hate is unfounded.
For you to just assume that anyone suggesting someone purchase fem seeds is irresponsible in some way shows me that you really have no fucking clue. In the first place, I am not telling people to buy or not buy anything. I am talking about the way things are, and how so many people like to spout off with things that surely aren't.
Then they want to laugh at those that don't subscribe to their own brand of ignorance and douchbaggery.
Get smarmy and laugh at me if you want, but it isn't ME that is bringing the bullshit to the table.

I think many of you laughing folks, and even the self proclaimed naturalists, would enjoy knowing that a large percentage of the regular seeds now available on the market do indeed, and without a doubt, have feminized seeds in their lineage.
See, the practice is a long known about and widely used tool by many top breeders.

 

[headband 707]

OK, you are a hater...we get it. Thing is, your hate is unfounded.
For you to just assume that anyone suggesting someone purchase fem seeds is irresponsible in some way shows me that you really have no fucking clue. In the first place, I am not telling people to buy or not buy anything. I am talking about the way things are, and how so many people like to spout off with things that surely aren't.
Then they want to laugh at those that don't subscribe to their own brand of ignorance and douchbaggery.
Get smarmy and laugh at me if you want, but it isn't ME that is bringing the bullshit to the table.

I think many of you laughing folks, and even the self proclaimed naturalists, would enjoy knowing that a large percentage of the regular seeds now available on the market do indeed, and without a doubt, have feminized seeds in their lineage.
See, the practice is a long known about and widely used tool by many top breeders.

Got to love that word "smarmy" LOL . Seriously you really do have it all wrong with the hatin thing but I can't and won't convince you of that. Seeing as though most if not all the really really great genetics comes from "clone only" strains you can keep arguing this all you like and it changes nothing atleast for me. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm laughing at you .. perhaps more with you as I'm usually stoned when I'm on here.Still this has been my experiences and perhaps you like weak bud what do I know right lol peace out Headband707

Oh yeah I forgot this part .. Many of the seeds today do come from fem linage which is why it's soooo fucked up with the seeds right now so yeah your right LOL

 

[Diamonddss]

Femminized seeds DO NOT produce males.
Knowing this to be true, there has to be other reasons for what you saw with the MK ultra. Be it a hermaphrodite you saw, or perhaps not given the seeds you thought you bought.
I too had a male grow from supposed femmed seeds, but I let the breeder know that I know better than that...and they sent me the proper seeds and an apology for fucking up.
There will be NO males come from a pack of actual femmed seeds.

Lots of people swear to things...because it requires very little of anything to swear.

ive searched the net over and found only threads of feminzed going herm or complete males when it came to mk ultra feminized. Not one thread on any successful grows. Every thread theres quite a few of people bitching about feminized mk ultra. I read enough aND grown enough of them to make my own opinion. Im not a hater of fems as i have a few GH going right now but im not gonna lie im wayyy more concerned that they will spit out a bit of pollen than i am and of the non femmed. However, i trust them enough to take cuts of the lemon skunk b4 flower.

 

[Baba Ku]

Got to love that word "smarmy" LOL .

Smarmy and laughing would be in the following:

Still this has been my experiences and perhaps you like weak bud what do I know right lol peace out Headband707

Yeah, anyone not down with the struggle like yourself would prolly like weak ass bud...only goes to reason.

Seriously you really do have it all wrong with the hatin thing but I can't and won't convince you of that.

Convince me? I give a rats ripe toss what you hate or don't..it's you saying you hate things.

Let me also say again I HATE AF/fem seeds just incase you missed it LOL.

That was you...yes?

Oh yeah I forgot this part .. Many of the seeds today do come from fem linage which is why it's soooo fucked up with the seeds right now so yeah your right LOL

Who knows if you are being facetious or what????
But good news for you possibly is that knowing that many standard lines may well have been worked using fem beans could give you an excuse to use for all the hermies and shitty looking buds.


(lol...weak bud indeed....lol, do get a firmer grip, Jr.)

 

[twowire]

First post in the forums for me...helloooo everybody.

For Baba Ku .... I do indeed appreciate the information that you have provided here.
I have been growing indoor since '80 or thereabouts and although I have lots of experience,both indoors and out, I have not used any fem seeds.
Let me say that I am not against it whatsoever and am indeed thinking of some experimenting myself.
I have never come across a strain that I could not clone.Sure some take more or less time or have some peculiarity of sorts,but cloning...no problem.
With all the stuff one hears about fems are hard or impossible to clone mean little to me. I must experience it for myself.
However do you have any advice directly related to cloning fems.
I would greatly appreciate your input baba.

Great forum BTW

 

[Baba Ku]

Welcome, twowire.

There is no difference genetically between a plant that came from a fem seed and one from the same line standard bred seed. (no more than two siblings from the regular breeding)
So, the plant is what it is, and will clone as it will clone.
There is absolutely NO evidence that anyone can point to that would say that a plant that came from a fem bean was harder to clone simply because it's mother was pollinated by another female. The parent plant had no idea if it was a male or a female that pollinated it. And there is nothing different between the pollen from a male and pollen from it's sibling sister...save for the fem pollen lacks a Y chromosome. That's it.
I would say anyone claiming hard cloning to be a less than desirable trait from fem beans has absolutely nothing but their claim to back them up.

Oh sure...some young growers may well experience a hard to clone plant, or even a pack of plants from fem beans. But they are young, or they would realize that there are just far to many variables involved that can cause cloning to be slow or whatever. For them to just come to the conclusion that it was the fault of the beans coming from a fem breeding is just voodoo logic and nothing more.

I don't grow may feminized beans...most are my own, but I have never seen anything at all that would suggest that they are harder to clone than regular bred plants.
Just as ridiculous as saying they are less potent for some reason.

 

[twowire]

Thanks Baba,
That is basically what I knew had to be so.
Reality does not change due to people preconceived notions.
(largely due to lack of experience)
Thanks again for presenting the facts on this topic.

 

[bobman]

Just finishing my first pack of fem's. Super lemon haze. I am a believer now. Solid plant, I will know more about the potency in a couple of weeks. I switched fans and I forgot to tape a light on it. One of my ak's started throwing nanners but nothing from the slh and one of them was right next to the light. It will always be strain and breeder when selecting beans but if they have a femmed version I will go that way unless I want to create seeds.

They clone just like anything else, not sure where that rumor would even come from does not make sense.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

For the record we've got two sides, lots of opinion, opinion being presented as fact (but little fact.) Pretty much like all the fem threads here. It's pretty logical to conclude that fems won't produce males. But everything else is opinion until proven. I might even go as far as subjective opinion. Until we get something other than repeat personal comments, the loudest guns are shooting blanks.