Awesome info guys, thanks(even Grassroots, lol). I was aware of the hermie tendency, but doesn't it usually take a fair bit of stress in order to bring out the hermie trait? Anyways, it seems the general consensus is that there's no difference in potency of the finished plant if grown correctly(now I just have to learn to grow properly). I can't forget who asked, but I don't have access(legally) to clones. At least it was never presented as an option(in Canada). Anyways, thanks a bunch folks.
Are feminized seed less potent, and if so, why?
- Thread starter skinzilla
- Start date
Feminized seeds are not less potent. You might (might!) have a smaller selection of phenotypes in a pack of fem seeds but my fem SLH was so potent I hated smoking it. Sells well though.
The only plants I've had hermie were non-fem seeds that were severely stressed. I stressed my fem seeds VERY much, constant revegging, 90F+ heat issues, forgetting to water, over/under fertilization, days in darkness, messed up light cycle in flower, etc. Not a single evidence of hermie traits but at the same time I haven't tried many fem seeds. Just my 2c.
The only plants I've had hermie were non-fem seeds that were severely stressed. I stressed my fem seeds VERY much, constant revegging, 90F+ heat issues, forgetting to water, over/under fertilization, days in darkness, messed up light cycle in flower, etc. Not a single evidence of hermie traits but at the same time I haven't tried many fem seeds. Just my 2c.
CalcioErba, when we select for a parent we will normally place high importance on if the plant has a tendency to hermie or not. Obviously if a female show intersex during normal flowering and without any apparent stress placed on it, we probably won't chose it to be a parent plant. And the wise breeder may well have a female that he likes, yet he knows better than to simply trust it does not carry the intersex trait in dominance...so he tests this female. He will stress it a bit with lights, and possibly other normal grow room stresses. He wants to see if the intersex trait is buried way down deep, or does it only take a little stress...perhaps just past what a normal dialed in grow would subject it to?
It may be that he finds a female that he likes that also will not show intersex with a bit of severe stress. This is one he may use as a parent plant.
Now imagine you have two sister females that grow out to your liking, and they both pass the stress test. You can feel fairly confident that both will make good female parents and they don't show a high propensity to show intersex.
Now assume I force one to hermie...and remember that it wouldn't hermie under some stress, so I need to give it some severe stress to make it show intersex. Stress unlike anything the plant would ever see in nature or your grow. This would require the use of silver ions or another means of reversal. Hense the term "forcing"...as we are forcing the thing to hermie, and not simply seeing it express that trait on it's own.
And we do NOT trigger some sort of on/off thing when we force one to hermie. It is not like once we do it the plant will now be a hermie showing plant..that is simply not that case.
Now, you tell me how you don't have to worry about that male that you want to use because you think the two fems would be more hermie prone? Just what do you know about him? Do you think he has a high propensity to pass on the hermie trait? Do you really know anything at all about him?
No...unless you do proper testing you don't know much at all about him. And I with my two proven and tested females am sitting with much better stock than you have. At least I know what mine does, and you have no idea.
You may well chose a hermie monster male that passes it on like candy to kids. How would you know?
My point is, you need to worry about the hobby breeder using males passing on the intersex trait FAR more than you need to worry about the fem seed breeder passing it on.
We only force a plant temporarily to show what it already has to show. We do NOT change it's genetic make up in any way, shape, or fashion.
It may be that he finds a female that he likes that also will not show intersex with a bit of severe stress. This is one he may use as a parent plant.
Now imagine you have two sister females that grow out to your liking, and they both pass the stress test. You can feel fairly confident that both will make good female parents and they don't show a high propensity to show intersex.
Now assume I force one to hermie...and remember that it wouldn't hermie under some stress, so I need to give it some severe stress to make it show intersex. Stress unlike anything the plant would ever see in nature or your grow. This would require the use of silver ions or another means of reversal. Hense the term "forcing"...as we are forcing the thing to hermie, and not simply seeing it express that trait on it's own.
And we do NOT trigger some sort of on/off thing when we force one to hermie. It is not like once we do it the plant will now be a hermie showing plant..that is simply not that case.
Now, you tell me how you don't have to worry about that male that you want to use because you think the two fems would be more hermie prone? Just what do you know about him? Do you think he has a high propensity to pass on the hermie trait? Do you really know anything at all about him?
No...unless you do proper testing you don't know much at all about him. And I with my two proven and tested females am sitting with much better stock than you have. At least I know what mine does, and you have no idea.
You may well chose a hermie monster male that passes it on like candy to kids. How would you know?
My point is, you need to worry about the hobby breeder using males passing on the intersex trait FAR more than you need to worry about the fem seed breeder passing it on.
This may be part of your confusion...see, we don't cause the plant to be intersex...it either has the gene to express the trait or it does not. And if it does, it is either held in dominance or latency in the genetic map.
We only force a plant temporarily to show what it already has to show. We do NOT change it's genetic make up in any way, shape, or fashion.
One of the pros could be that the fem version of a line will be much more consistent than the regular of the same line. Some fem lines are actually going to be a BX or another filial generation incross of the line which takes it further than what it is in regular offering.
A good example of this would be s annie' s killing fields, where the fem offering is a backcross of the original and the sought after blue is expressed in far greater numbers in the fem version.
Such consistency and honing in on a trait would be much further down the line if he chose to do it with nothing but regular breedings.
A con could be if the breeder is offering S1 seeds, or true "selfings" rather than feminized sibs.
See, when we use the pollen from a forced fem to pollinate herself, we limit the genetic material real fast. This can be a good thing as far as consistency in the progeny, but it could also fast track to inbreeding depression.
Scroggermans original statement is made true if talking about selfed seeds, rather than feminized seeds.
A good example of this would be s annie' s killing fields, where the fem offering is a backcross of the original and the sought after blue is expressed in far greater numbers in the fem version.
Such consistency and honing in on a trait would be much further down the line if he chose to do it with nothing but regular breedings.
A con could be if the breeder is offering S1 seeds, or true "selfings" rather than feminized sibs.
See, when we use the pollen from a forced fem to pollinate herself, we limit the genetic material real fast. This can be a good thing as far as consistency in the progeny, but it could also fast track to inbreeding depression.
Scroggermans original statement is made true if talking about selfed seeds, rather than feminized seeds.
house
Member
How would "unlocking" intersex traits make them more likely to passed on vs not expressing them? Expressing a phenotype doesn't necessarily increase the likelihood of it being passed on. Cannabis sex isn't conclusively XX/XY determined. Growing data supports XX/autosomal sex determination. An unstressed parent must already have these traits dormant in their genome for the feminization process to work. Unless we can conclude the process of feminization results in permanent genetic change, it appears intersex traits are naturally a part of the cannabis genome whether the plant expresses them or not.
I don't use feminized seeds simply because not all the strains I want are feminzed yet. Growers appear to have great success with them and I encourage experimenting with them to gain more data on this topic.
I understand what you are saying Baba Ku but I don't understand why you are reffering to a male that i don't know about...
Cannabis is a subdioecious with monoecious occuring in the population naturally. I'm sorry I don't buy "forcing" a plant to throw male flowers is acceptable when it does it naturally. All one is doing is bring that trait out from deep down inside where someone worked their ass off to hide it. Then turning around and trying to bury again by crossing it to another female that has had her genes worked to bury that trait. This is the only reason why the trait is hard to bring out in fem seeds. I am saying that it is there and there will be offspring that will get triggered easier because of it. Why is there one skinny person is a family of obese people? He/She eats the same food, sits on his ass the same as his family, but he doesn't gain a lb. Why is there a blonde haired child when both parents are dark haired? Because somewhere in their ancestry there were people with blonde hair.
Genetics play a much larger roll than just what each plant expresses as it grows. It carries a history with it and making offspring from it can trigger these expressions that were bred out to begin with. It is in my belief that once that plant is triggered, it has found the path to the trait and will most likely pass this known path on to the offspring.
Can a male pass on the trait? Yes it can! I am not denying that at all! They are just as likely to pass the trait on as females but nobody is forcing them commercially to make seeds.
In the end the OPs question was answered. No they are not less potent than the regular versions. I personally prefer regular versions to fem versions if they are available. To be able to see the expression of a variety as a male is IMVHO a good experience for all growers.
This is the place where you lose touch with the way things really are.
It seems that you feel that you are starting something that would not have started had you not fooled around with it. That is a totally false assumption.
If you had not forced the female to show the latent held intersex gene, you wouldn't know she carried it. How would you know if she doesn't show it during flower?
It matters not whether you force the plant to express the trait or not...it has the trait in it (as do the vast majority all cannabis females) and it can and will pass it on just the same regardless of whether you forced the trait to express or not.
ANd I mentioned the male because you said we have nothing to worry about when using males...I submit you have lots more to worry about using a male you know nothing about, than a female you can be relatively certain about.
Lol, that's like saying your inflated tires ride better than his flat ones.
translation - cloning is easy
Yep, some strains take a few days longer than others. Never seen a sibling that didn't take as well as her sister. It's all moisture, temp and a little light.
Interesting. My experience shows little if any difference in rooting time between dual vs alternating nodes. The only cut you'll ever take that fails more than others is the top of the stalk. Especially if it's a hollow stalk. Stems usually root, stalks usually rot.
I bet if you spent half the time rooting cuts as you do defending fem beans, you'd be a cloning foo.
growhigh1234
Member
to be honest iv grown out quiet a few fmale seeds and have found that there no less potent !!!!
what i have found though is a lesser tendency to show differing phenos !!!!
witch could be good or bad witch ever way you look at it !!!
iv poped 5 feminzed seeds and got 5 carbon copys of each other !!!
but also iv found a mutent tendency its either stella or a piece of crap !
im no grow god !!!! but useing chemicals to torture a plant has to have some negitive effect !!!
IT HAS TO MANIFEST ITS SELF SOME HOW !!!!!
HAS TOO !!
IT DOESNT HAPPENED NATURALY IN THE WILD !!! BIRDS AND ANIMALS DONT COME ALONG WITH ACID AND BURN THEM TO HERMIE !!!
what i have found though is a lesser tendency to show differing phenos !!!!
witch could be good or bad witch ever way you look at it !!!
iv poped 5 feminzed seeds and got 5 carbon copys of each other !!!
but also iv found a mutent tendency its either stella or a piece of crap !
im no grow god !!!! but useing chemicals to torture a plant has to have some negitive effect !!!
IT HAS TO MANIFEST ITS SELF SOME HOW !!!!!
HAS TOO !!
IT DOESNT HAPPENED NATURALY IN THE WILD !!! BIRDS AND ANIMALS DONT COME ALONG WITH ACID AND BURN THEM TO HERMIE !!!
redneck shogun
Member
If you are interested in growing a strain that you tried from a clone that you liked, would you be better off buying an IBL of that strain or the Fem version? If you are looking for total experience not just potency.
Why is there a lack of vigour with Selfed seeds as apposed to Feminised, i thought technically they were the same thing, selfed are fems(XX). Right?
I suspect this is what im seeing Baba, or have seen/noticed in the past, as i havent seen that lack of vigour with 'all' Feminised seeds, ive noticed it with alot though(majority). Compared to their Regular counterparts, they seem slow starters sometimes, lethargic etc, & you tend to notice these things after a time. I have never seen less potency though, in answer to the OP's original Q.
So the lack of vigour ive noticed is from S1's as apposed to other Feminised? It would explain why i havent seen that in all the feminised ive grown out. Information appreciated, turning out a nice thread.
Peace.!
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Disco, I have been growing pot for a long time, and have cloned many a cut, and that is why I can provide some insight into the procedure.
You get some experience under your belt and you may be better fit to provide us with some wisdom.
growhigh, it helps to actually understand what the procedure is for forcing a fem to produce pollen, rather than simply take what you envision and try to make it a reality.
For instance, there is no burning of a plant going on, with acid or otherwise.
Simply saying it just has to manifest itself in some way, and that it doesn't happen in nature, is a bit ignorant to what is really going on.
Actually, when we use silver ions such as with CS or STS, we are really providing something that the plant already does on it's own. We understand what the plant is doing when it triggers the intersex mechanism, and we can create the very same circumstance that the plant can do for itself in nature.
Technically, plants produce hormones that trigger things such as intersex...and we are simply making things happen by manipulating these hormones. Specifically, silver ions serve to block ethylene reception.
And no, there has been no indications of this procedure manifesting itself in some detrimental fashion.
Scrogerman, I would be very leery to make the blanket statement that all S1 selfings will show inbreed depression. It is just that it limits the genetic material, which is part of what inbreeding depression is.
If you have a female that pollinates her sister, you have two specific and individual genetic maps that will mix together and recombine into new genetic maps for the progeny.
If we only use one female to pollinate herself, then the total number of chromosomes that are available for meiosis (the recombination of the genes) is cut in half from the sibxsib cross...since the selfing only has one genetic map to recombine with.
These things may well be part of what you have experienced, but so many other things come into play that it makes it hard to make blanket statements.
Self something, and then self it's progeny, and then self it's progeny again, and you will probably see some depression...or at least you are much more likely to see it than if you did three generations using siblings.
Yeah Cheers Baba, great info man. So thats what im seeing then is it, a dilution of chromosomes, causing this sluggish/slow growth pattern. I must of had alot of S1's in the past then ah(i understand it doenst happen to all S1), like i said alot of fems ive grown just seem to lack vigour compared to regs. Ive wondered why this happens sometimes, now i know(i think). inbred depression. As i said in my original post, 'You may lose vigour', but thats about it', was just relating my obs as to feminised seed sometimes, i knew it certainly didnt happen to all Fem's. I suppose its a good idea to try n find out how the seeds have been feminised, if you can.
Thanks again buddy!
Thanks again buddy!
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They have the same potency, but like growhigh said, generally a lot less variation - plants are much more likely to be similar. Thats can be a good thing.
growhigh1234
Member
wait there a min you have just used god knows how many words to say the same thing i said !!!
your usein man made chemicials to torture a female stable plant into throwing pollen !!! your not mimicking anything natural are you !!! the plant wouldnt normaly do it !! becuase you have poposely picked a plant that doesnt have hermie traits !! even when stressed in the crazyest ways with light heat and god knows what else they tryed down the years !!! so naturaly even when stressed the plants in question would not hermie ???? you have had to use something chemical !!!
i always thort hermiein was a survival mechenisum ?? a last gasp !!! a death throw !!!! only when there are no male pollen and the plant has to reproduce !!! has to survive !!! makein the last resort !!! the first resort has to have some sort of negitive affect !!!!
same as inbreeding does !! ibl's............. you cant just blindy say ohhh its totaly excatly the same as nuturaly makein seeds !!!! logic dictates overwise !
I've grown loads of femmed seeds, no potency issues, if the mother is potent then the seed stock will be the same, they are the same DNA, any potency issues are the difference in growing/feeding
Never had a cloning issue with femmed seeds, seeds from many sources
Never had a cloning issue with femmed seeds, seeds from many sources
G
guest456mpy
LOL...
Just because something has "acid" in it's name doesn't make it caustic! Gibberellic acid is a plant hormone that affects plant behavior. Ethylene reception is another trigger that affects plant behavior. There is no physical burning.
Reverting to hermaphrodite sexual expression in cannabis is a survival mechanism, and they just provide the correct hormones to tell the plant it needs to. It's like how birth control pills work on humans, all on a hormone level.
I've grown strains that were available both ways from the same breeder and compared: no difference in phenotypes, vigor, taste nor potency.
Just because something has "acid" in it's name doesn't make it caustic! Gibberellic acid is a plant hormone that affects plant behavior. Ethylene reception is another trigger that affects plant behavior. There is no physical burning.
Reverting to hermaphrodite sexual expression in cannabis is a survival mechanism, and they just provide the correct hormones to tell the plant it needs to. It's like how birth control pills work on humans, all on a hormone level.
I've grown strains that were available both ways from the same breeder and compared: no difference in phenotypes, vigor, taste nor potency.
softyellowlight
Active member
Nah, man, variegation i.e. "deformed twisted mutants" isn't caused by feminization. Plenty of lines that used all normal male and female flowers to be bred can show the trait.
