Hobby Breeding Good or Bad?

[Baba Ku]

Oh, I agree totally that Mendel only scratched the surface...good thing, but just that.

I have never seen a plant that was stressed remain male expressing.
You are saying that there were clones taken from a female that was stressed, and then remained male? I find that hard to swallow. First off...to root, the light will need to be a vegetative cycle...and then the cut will have to go through reveg before viable new nodes are produced...and you say after all this the plant was still male?
Hmmm....

 

[highonmt]

Oh, I agree totally that Mendel only scratched the surface...good thing, but just that.

I have never seen a plant that was stressed remain male expressing.
You are saying that there were clones taken from a female that was stressed, and then remained male? I find that hard to swallow. First off...to root, the light will need to be a vegetative cycle...and then the cut will have to go through reveg before viable new nodes are produced...and you say after all this the plant was still male?
Hmmm....

No she remained monoesious. The plant always produced nanners no mater how I pampered her. When she arrived she appeared to be pure dioesious and produced beautiful pistillate flowers but turned monoesious after a cold snap. Her clones were all monoesious and I tried to salvage her by extra pampering of her clones but she stayed "a hermie" to use the pejorative. As all cannabis is subdioesious this is not too suprising. I am not the only one to have noticed this problem. I am also not suprised that some cultivars will revert to being dioesious after stress. Regards,
HM

 

[highonmt]

afaik, not may plants have X Y sex determination.

Yep it's complicated.

 

[303hydro]

So back to the thread lol.... I vote for the pollen chuck. Do it.

 

[highonmt]

So back to the thread lol.... I vote for the pollen chuck. Do it.

Yes... all bantering aside I personally see nothing wrong with a little back yard breeding...you could hit the jackpot and come up with a great cultivar. As long as you aren't releasing impure genetics into pristine wild populations in Africa, or Eurasia like greenhouse seeds and the seedhunters for instance... I'd just go for it. Best of luck.
HM

 

[inquest]

Hi guys! I vote for pollen chuckin!

I also believe that you've all been discussing epigenetics. The study of the switches that turn the genes on-off. If you take a sample from any portion of the plant all dna will be the same, save for the gametes. So, why doesn't a root look like a leaf or a stem? The "environment" is everything around the dna including the cell its in. At some point the cells that are growing and dividing have to make a decision to become something else or stop replicating. Like at any transition you see anywhere on the plant, eg: petiole to leaflet or cell membrane to cell wall. Something tells it what part of the "blueprints" to use, when and where.

Oh, and their starting to think that this is where evolution happens. There's been some evidence that the switch position is transfered out many generations. So.....VG this might be a really good reason to run your UVB bulbs!!! That higher thc count might just pass on to the offspring. I plan on running UV right from seedling, just like the tropical sun.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1951968,00.html

 

[inquest]

Oh yeah, Thanks BK for posting about Ne!! I've been looking for anything breeding related for quite awhile now.... sometimes you just gotta know what to enter into google to get anything good out of it! This little tidbit illuminated up a bunch o stuff I've been wrestling with!

For the record Ne = Effective Beeding Number or the number of parents that ACTUALLY contribute something to the mix.

 

[Unclepeter]

@ BK,

Hope you and those in the thread do not mind my posting of this in relation to fems and plants reversing etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
It seems to me that you have undermined your argument by categorising intersex plants as females and cut off your escape route by saying that environmental factors don't influence sex.


Perhaps I wasn't clear; please allow me to clarify my position.

I don't believe I did categorize intersex plants as females. The intersex trait is not unique to either gender. There are both intersex females (no MADC) and intersex males (MADC present). There are also females that do not show intersex characteristics, and males that do not show intersex characteristics.

MADC and intersexuality are not mutually inclusive traits.


Environmental effects DO NOT affect GENDER. They DO affect sexual expression. Environmental affects (ie streses) can certainly cause the appearance of staminate flowers on otherwise pistillate plants.. pistillate plants that would otherwise not produce male flowers under healthy grow room/greenhouse/outdoor conditions... the possible mechanisms for such were outlined in my previous post re: the meat.

Quote:
What we are left with is a genetically determined mechanism for intersex traits which does not involve MADC for which you do not have a marker to determine it's presence.
No marker(s) for intersexuality have YET been identified... genomics is expensive work, and very few labs in the world are looking at cannabis in terms of molecular genetics. Shanti knows Mandolino, I know because we spoke about it years ago. I would have thought you'd be aware of their work. However, being that there are likely tens of thousands of genes, developing a marker system for every trait will take a long while.


Quote:
What is your working model to account for intersex plants?


Well, this is my HYPOTHESIS.... we are a ways away from a 'working model' per se.

Obviously, as in mammals, there are different endogenous levels of hormones... you've seen women with high testosterone levels and hairy upper lips.... this trait obviously varies, as most do, within the population. My submission would be that plants, too, have variations in hormone levels within the population. Hormones are the result of, but also regulated by, transcription factors... some of which are other hormones. The varying levels of these hormones in the population likely accounts for the degrees of intersexuality we see in different cannabis plants.


Quote:
Considering the main argument against fem seeds is the fear of ingraining intersex traits, the issue needs to be addressed. Calling a hermie intersex does not make it go away.

The argument is based on poorly created methods of 'feminizing'... as I said in a previous post like Soma's RODELIZATION. His process is do select plants that will throw male flowers late in the cycle, and select the plants for the creation of 'feminized' seed. The problem with this method is the selection pressure is TOWARDS plants that show intersex traits- the very method of creating the seed selects for the trait. This will obviously lead the population TOWARDS intersexuality... LIKE BEGETS LIKE.

I don't know what methods other breeders are using, but surely the degree of intersexuality reported in some 'feminized' seedlots is a result of the selection, and the PROCESS that is used to produce said seed. I've never gown feminized seed from any other company, I have no interest in it knowing the methods, minuscule population sizes and selection criteria most of the companies use.

For the record, I've used gynoecious mating schemes (your definition is incorrect JessE) to REMOVE intersex traits from a population, so I know it is possible to decrease intersexuality. It works, but it's all about the selection and methodology used to create the seed.

~~~~

I'd like to ask one question to the "anti-fem" group. I've yet to see a decent response to this question:

Given that even the Y-chromosome undergoes substantial crossovers and thus recombination with the X, what exactly (genetically speaking) are we losing by engaging in female:female breeding schemes? How does this purport to be a problem when cannabis growers are SOLELY interested in the female progeny of any given union?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
This leads to the questions;
Could the same females be induced to produce pollen?

Almost ALL females I have come across can be induced to produce some amount of pollen via the use of GA3 (the gibberellin pathway) or via ethylene inhibitors (the ethylene pathway). I too have encountered oddballs, with (what I assume are) genetic mutations in specific genes involved in the shedding of pollen (dehiscence)... perhaps what has been referred to in this thread as 'sterility mutations'... which is an incredibly broad and IMO not a very useful term, other than to indicate "somethings going on". You see there are literally dozens, if not hundreds of genes that act in concert to produce what we see as 'pollen' at the end of flowering. Specific gene regulators turn genetic switches on and off to promote the cells to undergo meiosis, cellular division and gamete formation, the production of anthers, the internal production of pollen, production and regulation flavanoids that allow the chemical signaling for pollen to germinate on stigmas that are recognized as 'the same species'. These are very complex yet well demonstrated genetic pathways that exist, and allow pollen of a species to germinate on the stigma of a con specific (a member of the same species). Because there are some many genes involved in the process, there is a lot of room for error...a problem in one gene may completely disrupt the pathway, and lead to a deficiency in pollen production. What's interesting, an probably obvious to anyone that A) understands evolution and B) appreciates the impact of flaws in these genes... any non-functional copies of the genes would impact (ie negate) the ability of the individual with these genes to leave offspring. (This isn't entirely true because all outrossers can mask the genes and pass them along via carriers, with only homozygous recessive individuals showing the deficit... and therefor not contributing to the next generation.. the point being that these genes won't be completely purged from the population, and can still 'pop-up' in the form of males that can't produce pollen, or even females that can't produce pollen. To say these plants can;t exist would be foolish, they certainly do... especially in further generations or tightly bred (ie inbred) lines. However, the fact that these genes are highly conserved from one species to another (ie almost all flowering plants have versions of these genes) shows that they promote high fecundity (high fertility) and confer a high level of fitness (ability to leave offspring) to those who possess them.

I too have come across plants that are 'resistant' to switching sex... they will produce anthers, but no pollen will fly on heir own. Some plants must be beaten with sticks to force them to shed the pollen inside... but baring a rare mutation, almost all females are able to produce pollen.

Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
Will any of these females show intersex/ hermie traits under normal conditions?
Please remember Mendel's Second law of Inheritance- Independent assortment of characters. 'Gender' is a separate trait from 'intersexualty'. You can have female intersex plants and you can have male intersex plants, just like you can have 'pure' male and female plants (ie no flowers of the opposite sex under healthy environmental conditions).

Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
Alternatively, do all intersex/hermie have the marker....
Only MALE intersex plants show the MADC marker. Intersexuality is a completely different trait.. apparently autosomal in nature. Any genetic trait will have a marker, we just haven't identified the intersex marker(s) yet'

Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
and if not, what is the mechanism that causes these traits?
N.
That is a question nobody can currently answer. However, there are mounds of evidence that any grower can suggest....fluctuating pH, light stresses... sever plant mutilation (heavy pruning during flowering)... there are a whole host of environmental effects we as growers try to avoid in our environment. Outdoors and greenhouse growers are less likely to induce these stresses being in a natural environment (baring soil/watering issues), which in my opinion is why we see less intersex plants in greenhouses or outdoors. We do know that stresses cause alterations in Ethylene levels within the plant- and we know that interfering with the ethylene pathway can alter sexual expression. Some stresses also alter Gibberellin levels, and we know application of exogenous Gibberellin-like molecules (like GA3) can induce male flowers on females (this is all well documented in other species if you care to look). I can't tell you for sure what mechanisms cause what, because cannabis research has been stifled for decades, and this type of question has not been adequately addressed by the scientific community.... hopefully over the coming years this will change... and the fact that Mandolino, Rinalli and Carboni and others in the Italian group along with Sakamoto and others in Japan are continually publishing new genetic works in Cannabis seems to support this claim. I would suggest many fruits are yet to be harvested in this regard, so we'll see what the future brings.

-Chimera

 

[Baba Ku]

Unclepeter, I am certainly glad to see you post up some wise words. Many people who have their pants in a wad over fem seeds will often post up bits and quips from those above exchanges and try to use them in their arguments. Thing is these folks are not reading it all, or at the very least not comprehending what they are reading.
Most take the words of many a wise person out of context, and to make it worse they have no real clue what the context really is.

 

[Unclepeter]

Unclepeter, I am certainly glad to see you post up some wise words. Many people who have their pants in a wad over fem seeds will often post up bits and quips from those above exchanges and try to use them in their arguments. Thing is these folks are not reading it all, or at the very least not comprehending what they are reading.
Most take the words of many a wise person out of context, and to make it worse they have no real clue what the context really is.

to be fair I'm as guilty as anyone over that... i'm working on my anger too

 

[TopShelf]

I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.
- Thomas Jefferson

Who knows, I met get lucky and find my personal holy grail?

 

[Shady Smoka]

Wow...some people really know how to take a thread and drag it threw the mud...

Anyways.....

Yeah, definitely hobby breed. I plan on doing it soon. Good luck in your pursuit

 

[TopShelf]

my latest experiment is working with a tried and true skunk #1 male crossed with a really nice C99 female

 

[HighDesertJoe]

Hot Damn I got a Dime Bag of Mexican I'm going in the Seed Business.. jkjk
I can't afford seeds as it is so I'm OK with closet breeders.
We need more Johnny Apple Seeds Types giving out Medical Marijuana Seeds.
Mad RESPECT to all of you that's furthering the MJ movement.

 

[420inprogress]

Can't have breeding without growing...

Conversely, can't have growing without breeding...

...can never have too much of a good thing...


420IP

 

[Weird]

i didnt read the thraed

i posted as users past about the synergy between man and plant, if you want medicine designed for you its best if YOU breed it

 

[jyme]

i hope you decided to try breeding on for size. you asked was it a good ideal and i have to say yes. if the plants were outside they would preceed with out your intervention so how could you screw it up theres noboundrys no goals other than survival of the species it doesnt care if it goes back to hemp. so breeding is a simple procidure a cave man could do it. you pick the traits that makes you the happyest you pick the male you thing could pass the traits to the female that you disire it does get complicated and it can become a headacke if you let it. i do believe that all the pollen chunckin thats going on latly could cause a great change i the plants but this is not of big cencern the thing is with breeding people dont stop to check the genetics there working with and at some point diversity can be lost diversity is the key to really creating a new strain for the market or your freinds if you find a joy in breeding after your curent project i would say do some reading and it doesnt take much lol our favorete plant hasnt been studyed to thepoint where we have genetic markers and exclusive knowlage of domantes verses resessive genes the fact is ever one of our favorete strains were created by a person just like you or like me they were working in the faded area of breeding. sure some of them had great understanding of botany and understud the methods that one can follow to acheve the goal in mind. but never the less make your self some seeds grow them seeds study them plants and pick the ones who carry the ideal traits your hearts disire then proceed tothe point where the goalis reached and then stablize it with a good old backcross to its mother or father you chose to start the project. remember not all breeding projects work out as planed this is why i work with the indivgial pheno's that comes with each project i like diversity and just cause i had one ideal doesnt mean the other one is wrong. but by no means lose your focus from the origanal goal.

 

[Seedy_Git]

its a good idea to hobby breed I think, the more people who do it the more chance there is of someone finding something good or unusual. And besides, it's good fun to do and you learn a lot about breeding as you go. And your mates will love you for passing out seeds from your projects too!

 

[WelderDan]

Hobby breeding is great. I haven't bought seeds since around '06. I've been happily making my own seeds and crosses since. I've given them away, and received seeds from crosses others have made.

I've had very good luck, and some bad. Afghani #1 x C99 sounded good. It was frosty and potent, but tasted like ass. So they got tossed. Other crosses that worked out were kept and shared.

As long as people don't knowingly misrepresent the lineage and pass around crap it's all good.

 

[Paz]

Hobby breeding is great! Of course it is..

However, distributing them or selling them as some seedbanks do is often not in the best interests of the plant

I have created 2 strains over the last ten years.. After about 5 years with one I still don't see it as stable enough to be commercial.