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Heaths latest tree grow

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I've been thinking about placing a spray ring in the space between the bucket wall and the net pot wall. Hence the waterfall along the insides of a 5gallon bucket would be at about 3ft wide and full of oxygen.
Opinions?
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
I've been thinking about placing a spray ring in the space between the bucket wall and the net pot wall. Hence the waterfall along the insides of a 5gallon bucket would be at about 3ft wide and full of oxygen.
Opinions?

I like the idea of a water fall or sprayers inside hitting the roots and breaking the surface tension, but I don't understand your proposal.

5gal buckets are 12" in diameter and 15" tall if I remember correctly. Are you planing on using the 5 gal bucket inside a large tote?

:joint:
 

heburnzzz

New member
I agree with heath that the tip burn tech is not the ideal way to do it. I have an EC meter, and I know how to grow. However if you realize that with a tap water of .2 EC that you would only be feeding .8 ec of nuts, which is pretty low. I believe plants will use and adjust to higher feed but it doesnt seem to be nearly as efficient in the long run. It is fascinating how with a lower feed the mix can usually be run for longer with less problems. The question is how low could you go? I grew 2 foot healthy plants with an EC of .4 (RO), whose root systems were beautiful. Can plants adjust to even lower feed strengths? Others would laugh at these suggested strengths....Are almost all problems caused by too much food? seems so to me.
 
Cyat
I worry about placing the plant high due to the possibility of cord-roots forming; especially if I decide to try a tree grow with 5g buckets as the net pot.
What size net pot are you using?
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
Cyat
I worry about placing the plant high due to the possibility of cord-roots forming; especially if I decide to try a tree grow with 5g buckets as the net pot.
What size net pot are you using?

I believe that cord roots inside the hydroton are very important. They add a great deal of stability to the plant, which helps the plant avoid stress.

I also believe but don't know scientifically that the cord roots help the plant take in O2 from the air above the water line and below the top of the hydroton. Does anyone have any info on this one way or another?

:joint:
 

cyat

Active member
Veteran
Cyat
I worry about placing the plant high due to the possibility of cord-roots forming; especially if I decide to try a tree grow with 5g buckets as the net pot.
What size net pot are you using?

Ur overthinking the cord root thing. The cord roots form from an air gap between the bottom of the top bucket and the water in the bottom tub.
All the roots I see in the hydroton look like fishbones not cord roots, even have em growing into the air.
The rockwool/and or stem need to stay pretty dry
 

Billy Liar

Member
Hi everyone...
As cyat says, there seems to be a lot of over-thinking of things going on here..
May I make a couple of small statements..

There is no real need for the waterfall effect in the bottom tub...
There is no stem below the pebbles..
There is no need for a top feed once roots are well established in the water..

And here's heaths explanation on low ec... and why High ec isn't a good idea..

I will go into detail about nutrient concentrations because it seems to be an area which a lot of growers don't fully understand.

I have seen quite a lot of bad advice from experienced growers who advise to "increase the nutrient concentrations until you see tip burn and then back off slightly" I will try explain why this is bad advice.

Nutrient salts can cause harm to plants if they are in high enough concentration in water or soil. This effect is mainly indirect by pulling moisture out of roots and reducing the uptake of water and nutrients to affected plants. This is the cause of tip and edge burn of leaves, if the nutrient concentration was maintained, slow growth, nutrient deficiencies, wilting and eventual death of the plant would occur if the problem is not corrected.

This is the reason why, Water movement in plants is a factor of osmotic pressure and capillary action. Osmotic pressure is defined as water flowing through a permeable membrane in the direction of higher salt concentrations. Water will continue to flow in the direction of the highest salt concentration until the salts have been diluted to the point that the concentrations on both sides of the membrane are equal.

A good example of this is pouring salt on a slug or snail, the salt concentration outside the slug is highest, which causes the water from inside the slug's body to cross the skin membrane. The slug becomes dehydrated and dies.

For osmosis to occur, water must move from a more dilute (the nutrient solution) to a more concentrated compartment (the plant). If you were to water your plant with sea water the plant would wither and die as the salt water now extracts water from the plant instead of replenishing it. So basically high levels of salinity will lead to high concentrations of salt in the plant tissues which will severely damage metabolic processes.

here is a grow chart which will help explain why there is no advantage to feeding your plants high nutrient concentrations.


heath-robinson-34876-albums-heath-picture850534-grocurve.jpg


notice on the chart that there is a deficient zone where the plant is not meeting its needs and growth is poor. A low zone where the plant is growing but lacks all the necessary nutrients to sustain good growth and yield.

Now the important part, you will notice if you look at the sufficient and high zones that there is no advantage to feeding your plants at higher concentrations than is needed. Notice also that growth and yield suffers sharply once the plant is over fertilised. If you feed your plant until it is toxic and showing signs of tip burn and you back off slightly you are still in the excess zone and your yields will suffer to some degree.

I have found that the sufficient zone for marijuana is in the range from an Ec of 1.0 to 1.6 I personally run in at an EC of approx 1.2 and never exceed 1.4

I hope that helps explain why I do what I do.


Heath
Hope that clears a few things up...
peace
BL
ps if you cant see the chart just shout and I'll take a different approach to attaching the image..
 

heburnzzz

New member
Thanks for that billy. Obviously heath includes his tap in that? so wouldnt it be clearer to say a nutrient concentration of .8 - 1.2 EC? maybe some extra mag would have to be thrown in but the calcium is not used in excess so if using a balanced mix and RO water wouldnt this be useless EC? Or am i misunderstanding this? Clearly heath refers to a "powerband" so to speak in nutrient strength, obviously this can be achieved with any balanced mix, just wondering how necessary that excess calcium is. I believe ionic has calcium maybe i am wrong.....mmmmmmm
 
D

DHF

Hey Hydrosun........Cordroots form specifically due to the plant`s "survival mode" in areas above the floodline , as well as in smaller netpots in larger bottom containers again , above the flood line for the "preservation" of the plant , and it`s not a good thing......

They spin and "cord up" in an effort to suck juice/seek out moisture more efficiently when they`re not getting enough fluid distribution as the other roots below , and it`s the roots being suspended in the "open air" in that "air gap" between plant and nutrient solution that causes this phenomenon that directly affects plant growth by stealing plant energy to form said cords , while also affecting nutrient uptake and even juice distribution to foliage above .......

Again........cord roots are caused by the plants "survival mode" , and most certainly not needed for plant stability......Biggest lesson I ever learned runnin fast hydro setups was realizing that the upper container full of lava was what anchored the plants rootmass , and the bottom container with maybe 5" area underneath my krusty buckets was what was used to suck and distribute juice efficiently to the plants above.....

This debate and heated argument on many old sites has gone on for as long as I`ve been online for over 15 yrs , but Heath is the reason I learned a long time ago about cordroots after seeing folks runnin DWC with small netpots and large airgaps above the floodline with mediocre returns at best.....

We always used top containers with holes in the bottoms only......no holes in the sides above the floodline ever.....Never tried netpots.......for obvious reasons......

Just tryin to relay info that`s been lost by all the dead sites that`re gone and most certainly forgotten/never learned......

Heathie.......Where`s that new Aero setup..........?.......and Billy.........I CAN`T see the good pics damnit.........LOL.......Hook a brutha up......

Peace....DHF....:ying:....
 

Hydrosun

I love my life
Veteran
Hey Hydrosun........Cordroots form specifically due to the plant`s "survival mode" in areas above the floodline , as well as in smaller netpots in larger bottom containers again , above the flood line for the "preservation" of the plant , and it`s not a good thing......

They spin and "cord up" in an effort to suck juice/seek out moisture more efficiently when they`re not getting enough fluid distribution as the other roots below , and it`s the roots being suspended in the "open air" in that "air gap" between plant and nutrient solution that causes this phenomenon that directly affects plant growth by stealing plant energy to form said cords , while also affecting nutrient uptake and even juice distribution to foliage above .......

Again........cord roots are caused by the plants "survival mode" , and most certainly not needed for plant stability......Biggest lesson I ever learned runnin fast hydro setups was realizing that the upper container full of lava was what anchored the plants rootmass , and the bottom container with maybe 5" area underneath my krusty buckets was what was used to suck and distribute juice efficiently to the plants above.....

This debate and heated argument on many old sites has gone on for as long as I`ve been online for over 15 yrs , but Heath is the reason I learned a long time ago about cordroots after seeing folks runnin DWC with small netpots and large airgaps above the floodline with mediocre returns at best.....

We always used top containers with holes in the bottoms only......no holes in the sides above the floodline ever.....Never tried netpots.......for obvious reasons......

Just tryin to relay info that`s been lost by all the dead sites that`re gone and most certainly forgotten/never learned......

DHF thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I am exploring this topic because I have been experiencing sudden death syndrome with bigger set ups (200gal kiddie pools, 32gal brutes, etc.). The death sets in when the plants are supper huge in veg, or when I move the plants to flower. These plants float on a raft on top of the solution so they are always at a high water level on the net pot. In an attempt to stop the death I have built stands that hold the raft and net pots allowing for an air gap in the pond.

My speculation is that I am killing the plants by not having enough O2 in the water or O2 available to the roots from the air. Before adding the stand and air gap the plants were getting all the O2 from the solution and I was using venturi pumps (not a good waterfall). I'm working on adding water fall with the new air gap.

I'd really like to know about cannabis's ability to get O2 from the air.

I have now killed dozens of great plants in unfun ways with larger set ups, but my 5gal buckets keep rocking as they have for years.

Help me understand drowning plants. I keep going back to the thought that cord roots inside my hydroton is good for the plants, because I've had finger fat roots (in the rocks) in my successful 5gal buckets. But the death plants have NO strong roots at all, 100% of the roots are very fine.

I also note that 10" netpot plants do better than 8" netpot plants in these drowning death situations.

Again I am not trying to argue any posission just understand how I am killing perfectly HUGE plants WITHOUT root rot. In fact the littler plants in the pool keep on growing as the big 4'ers drop to their death.

Any help is welcome.

:joint:
 
My experience is only with bubble buckets with 6 inch net pots!
I was using 4 inch cubes;hence I feel I was planting directly on the bottom of the net pot with a mere 2 inches of clay balls on top and that's why I had to question the planting methods of larger trees in much larger pots.

Thanks for the many replies!

Billyliar... Interesting pics in your thread of a plant in the cubes and pot!

Hydrosun and DHF ....interesting dilemma in your postings!

Hydrosun...I'll elaborate on the ring and sprayers more later, I'm mobile at the moment
 
D

DHF

Damn HS........So sorry ta hear bout yer big bitches bitin the dust for no apparent reason , but it`s probably as you alluded to as in drowning from lack of O2 to the rootzone , as well as lack of juice circulation in said monster bottom containers.....but...

I`ve always said ta go with your strong suit , as in experience with the 5 gal buckets kinda speaks for itself cuz you`ve run em so long , and know their requirements for regular harvey........

Anytime you delve outside the realm of experience on "trial and error" for bigger plants/more yield , that " X " factor comes into play , and a certain amount of crop failure`s to be expected........

I`ve murdered 1000`s of decent sized plants in the quest for dialage.......1 thing I never got caught up in , was the hype of "new and improved" setups , as in bigger bottom containers growin bigger plants........but......when Heath tried it after 15 yrs or so , I took heed......

Then I realized he`s still only recirculating like 10 or so gals I think , so that`s not such an increase even though his plant size increased to almost 5 lbs......

I mean shit......I grew 2 1/2 lbers in 5 gal krusty buckets for almost a decade , and I`ve seen Heath grow the same size plants in containers HALF that size , so IME It`s not so much the size of the rootzone/rootmass , but rather how efficient said rootmass is in performing it`s function to shoot enough nutrient solution to the plants for proper nutrient uptake and transpiration , but if there`s not enough DO circulating through the roots , they suffer and head south toward the "drowning syndrome"............

You only get a chance ta build rootmass till stretch is over , cuz they cease growing and their sole purpose is to build buds and swellage till end of cycle once flowering hormones kick in.....

From what I`m gathering bout your bigass bottom containers is that they veg well to a certain point , and THEN drown around the flip ta 12/12 ?....

Gotta be lack of dissolved oxygen and circulation of nutrient solution as the rootmass is swelling , and the big bitches are drowning .....

Go look at keepalive.com for "thru-hull" bait aerators for the big ass single units you`re experimenting with.....Ran em in my old ebb and flow bucket setups with excellent results for "millions" of microscopic bubbles that stay suspended in solution , while using a small powerhead pump to keep external rez solution constantly moving....

They might work on large "Brute trashcan type " single units , but I doubt they`d stand up to daisy-chained together inline setups like the undercurrents runnin 24/7 over any length of time.......Not sure bout the kiddie pool setup though...........Roll the dice.........lol.........

Holler in PM so we can keep Heath`s thread headed in the right direction , unless folks see these type situations as worth discussing...........

Peace....DHF.....:ying:..
 

whodare

Active member
Veteran
unless folks see these type situations as worth discussing...........

Peace....DHF.......

i like these discussions... when i go to setup my diy uc i wanna know the ins and out without trial and error too much so the more stories of your experiences the better...
 
I agree Whodare

The "keepalive" site has an excellent guide to aeration. Their even using oxygen bottles to add DO. I'm not willing to go to that extreme!
I highly favor the thru- hull aeration method cause one can circulate DO through the feed pipes directly and or just in the res.

I believe DHF has "hit the nail on the head" to Hydrosun's root solution! And an easier way for me to increase DO inn my system too!

DHF
Do you know if those "Air Infusion" stones on Ebay that sell for $40-$50 bux apiece produce the same micro bubbles as the thru-hull aerator?
 
D

DHF

Hey Budshot....I`ve never used air stones of any type except for Alita silicone tubing with gozillions of micro-pore holes back yrs ago in my old krusty buckets with Thomas air compressors , and then Sweetwater regenerative blowers.......

As I said earlier about keepalive equipment , there`s no guarantee that a bait tank aerator runnin 24/7 will last for any length of time on a fully recirculating setup with buncha containers daisy-chained together like UC`s .....but.....

My thru-hull units worked for over 5 yrs kickin on 3 times a day for 30 minutes before feed pumps came on......and my flip rooms ran 12/12-24/7/365......

That`s all I`m ableta testify to , but the units are so cheap I`d say buy 2 or 3 at a time and run fuck out of em........If 1 takes a shit , go to number 2 , so on and so forth.........

A simple A/C adapter allows the 12 volt unit to be plugged into a timer and wall outlet FTW......

Ya`ll take care...DHF...:ying:....
 

Feijao

Active member
DHF can you tell me what the advantage if any there are to having the drain lines on the bottom on the container compared to the top of it? I am in the process of building a system and wondering if I should drain from the bottom or the top or both? Also if I were to have 80 gallons in my system would a 1200 GPH mag-drive be about right for circulations per hour?

I used Blazes system last time and it was pretty good although I had some root in the drain line problems towards the end. I was thinking of doing the same type of system pretty much, but adding a couple of features that I have seen mentioned here and on a couple other posts. Like T's at the end of the 1/2 to increase the DO in each container, a separate pump in the res to make a 24/7 waterfall effect, bigger pump for faster recirculation, and so on...

Thanks in advance...
 
D

DHF

Hey Feijao.......Your best bet is to go to Billy`s thread and ask him about exchanges per hr and what size pump that`d be sufficient , but I`m fairly confident that around 250 gals per hr exchange is what Billy and Heath strive for , but don`t quote me.......

Billy`s a wealth of information for what you`re looking at doing , and is always willing to help.......

I personally always worked with bigger badass overkill pumps and used ball valves and bypasses back to my rez`s for total control of juice flow........

With my krusty buckets there was not much of a way to measure how many times the solution was exchanged per any time increment since it was "SWC" with only lil over 1 1/2" of solution in bottom containers compared to RDWC that really requires the regular change out of solution to prevent stagnation and reduced dissolved oxygen in the rootzones......also.....

IME , Bottom drains are an accident waiting to happen with constant recirculating systems due to gravity and juice flow forcing roots toward the drains for imminent clogging......not a question of if , but rather when they`ll clog......

Billy`s setup with triple redundant drains at selected flood level is by far a stroke of genius.....

Good luck.....DHF......:ying:....
 
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