How much Ca is too much Ca?

[SensiBC]

I've been fiddling around with the Cannastats calc, comparing my mixes to Mel Franks guidelines and whatnot. One thing I'm wondering though, I don't see any reference to Calcium in any of those guidelines.

Since I understand that an abundance of Ca can lock out Mg, how much Ca is too much?

 

[SensiBC]

You folks don't know either, eh?

 

[VagPuncher]

Having issues in your hydro grow?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Ca is going to have a hard time locking out Mg or K because of the way the 3 are transported in the plant. Mg and K are way more mobile and both travel in the phloem of the plant, Ca is relatively immobile and travels in the xylem.

It does, however, work the other way...Mg or K can lock out Ca.

Plus it is about ratios more than one single number...that is the higher the EC you are feeding the more Ca you need. The ratio I see most often (and try to follow) is K-Ca-Mg 4-2-1.

So in other words if your K is 200 ppm your Ca should be around 100 and your Mg around 50. Obviously small variations are not going to be a big deal but if you get that out of whack too much the 3 may stop working synergistically and something may get locked out.

Ca itself is not toxic to the plant so you do not have to fear going over some line and poisoning your plant like you would with some of the micros.

Hope that is of some help.

 

[SensiBC]

Having issues in your hydro grow?

Yup, still trying to get the nutes dialed. Every environmental variable is already in check.

The Mom in the Hydroton drip system is finally looking pretty good, although I'm hitting her with more nutes than I ever would have expected she'd need, and I'm still having to foliar feed her daily to keep her happy. Currently feeding her Tap, plus Cal-Mag at 10/ml gal, plus Maxibloom which I've gradually been increasing the dosage of. Just brought her up to 1450PPM (at .5!) because she was still showing signs of def's. We'll see.

Cut some clones about two weeks ago, tossed em the EZ120 which had been thoroughly sterilized. Got a cold water loop which keeps the temps at 66-68f, pump is on 24/7. Two weeks, one res change, no roots, and noticed slime forming as of yesterday. Said fuck it and added a couple capfulls of bleach. I'll give em a little longer, then they're all getting tossed, the whole thing sterilized again, and we'll start over. FML.

The plants in the aero table are a lost cause at this point. They've been stunted for like a month now, no growth up top, almost no growth in the rootzone. They're still alive somehow, but every combination of nute mixture and strength has yielded no positive results. They grow for a couple weeks at first, start showing random def's and wierdness, lose some leaves, and then just sit there stunted with their green veins purple stems and random yellowing. The roots turn brown, but never get slimy whatsoever, and they don't grow. Occasionally a couple of the plants will show some new root growth, white and healthy, but eventually it stops.

The next time I have some rooted cuts to put in the aero tables I plan to give them tap plus calmag to about 200ppm. How much maxi to give them as a starting dose is apparently beyond me, maybe I'll start at 50-100ppm of Maxibloom and wait till they start to show decencies, then go up 50ppm at a time. I apparently suck at this shit.

 

[SensiBC]

Ca is going to have a hard time locking out Mg or K because of the way the 3 are transported in the plant. Mg and K are way more mobile and both travel in the phloem of the plant, Ca is relatively immobile and travels in the xylem.

It does, however, work the other way...Mg or K can lock out Ca.

Plus it is about ratios more than one single number...that is the higher the EC you are feeding the more Ca you need. The ratio I see most often (and try to follow) is K-Ca-Mg 4-2-1.

So in other words if your K is 200 ppm your Ca should be around 100 and your Mg around 50. Obviously small variations are not going to be a big deal but if you get that out of whack too much the 3 may stop working synergistically and something may get locked out.

Ca itself is not toxic to the plant so you do not have to fear going over some line and poisoning your plant like you would with some of the micros.

Hope that is of some help.

Thank you Sam, that was very informative.

 

[SensiBC]

The next time I have some rooted cuts to put in the aero tables I plan to give them tap plus calmag to about 200ppm. How much maxi to give them as a starting dose is apparently beyond me, maybe I'll start at 50-100ppm of Maxibloom and wait till they start to show decencies, then go up 50ppm at a time. I apparently suck at this shit.

Does this sound reasonable or am I just setting myself up for failure again? Still waiting for the cuts to root, but I'm preparing myself nonetheless.

 

[Cuban Strain]

R

It does, however, work the other way...Mg or K can lock out Ca.

Plus it is about ratios more than one single number...that is the higher the EC you are feeding the more Ca you need. The ratio I see most often (and try to follow) is K-Ca-Mg 4-2-1.

So in other words if your K is 200 ppm your Ca should be around 100 and your Mg around 50. Obviously small variations are not going to be a big deal but if you get that out of whack too much the 3 may stop working synergistically and something may get locked out.

Ca itself is not toxic to the plant so you do not have to fear going over some line and poisoning your plant like you would with some of the micros.

Hope that is of some help.

Does this apply to coco?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Yes, coco is what I grow in. My bad for not making that clear.

 

[SensiBC]

OK, so I've spent a bit more time screwing with the cannastats calc trying to sort all of this out.

To preface, I've got this mother plant which was suffering pretty badly using my low ppm tap water (.15ppm Mg, 1.5ppm Ca) plus Maxibloom at 7grams/gallon. She's about a year old at this point, about 3 feet tall, 3 feet wide, with a trunk about 3" in diameter and went into hardcore Mg def using just the Maxibloom. I brought her back my mixing Calmag at 10ml/gal plus Maxibloom at a little over 1tsp/gal. Seems the sweet spot for her total ppm is 1500 at .5. (She's in top drip hydroton, ph between 5.5-5.9)

Looking at the cannastats calc, feeding her the aforementioned mix puts K-Ca-Mg at 215-179-97. Not exactly the 4-2-1 I should be targeting apparently, but then again that mix was used in an effort to bring her back from a very deficient and unhappy state. Now that she's happy again for the most part perhaps at my next res change I'll drop the Calmag to approx 2ml/gal bringing the K-Ca-Mg to 215-111-71 and see how she reacts.

Once I get some cuts to root again, would this be a better target for my LP Aero tables as well?

 

[SensiBC]

Thoughts?

 

[analogue]

I'd stick with the K : Ca : Mg ratio of 4:2:1 across the board.

Calcium moves through the plant via transpiration, yes? How is your environment, that could inhibit movement of Ca even if it was present in optimal amounts.

 

[SensiBC]

78f or thereabouts room temp, 40-45% humidity, 1000ppm CO2, 68f res temps. Environmentally speaking I think I'm in pretty good shape.

Next res change I'll apply the CalMag at 2ml/gal as mentioned above, plus Maxi at 7g/gal and see how she reacts.

 

[drakkenox]

Don't be disheartened Sensi - one simple fact that alot of hydro gardeners overlook: the water you start with is CRUCIALLY important, I have been helping others for a couple years and when I finally got to set my own spot up. Major kH issues here - the kH of their water from the tap is almost 7 and mine is under 1 - the weird fucked up part is that I CANNOT figure out how the water company gets their kH that high and maintains ppm total at 50-60 whereas my water is 40 ppm but if I raise my kH to even 3 w baking soda and calcium carbonate my ppm are like 100 and then when I feed I start locking out potassium and im PISSED

 

[Cuban Strain]

Well my buddy is in coco and he is using tap water that is about 150ppm @.5 and he is getting Mg deficiencies just feeding maxi @7g/g... He added epsom salt @ 1tsp/gal, sensi cal mg @ 5ml/gal to 7g of maxi and it seamed to stop it a bit but after about a week it is back.

The leaf tips of the new growth (3rd week of bloom!!!) have slight burnt tips and those that aren't burnt (which are the majority) are white. Across the board older leaves are dying from the margins with green veins. There is about 4 different straint and all are showing Mg deficiency. I was thinking that Ca was locking out Mg but i guess that isn't the case. The thing is that the water report doesn't list ca or mg...

I called GH and asked them what to do and the tech rep said to add epsom salt @ 2tsp/gal to the maxi and feed. The epsom salts brought me to 2.2ec!!!! when i ran that through cannastats i get Mg = 261, S = 343! That seems ridiculous I know that adding more of what is deficient isn't always going to fix it nor is it the best option.

So what do you guys think my buddy should do?

 

[Cuban Strain]

Just checked the water report and the only things in there are sodium @22ppm, and nitrate @ 8ppm, and chlorine at 1.8ppm. It doesn't list Ca or Mg so I'm assuming it doesn't have any in it to speak of...

 

[SensiBC]

Don't be disheartened Sensi - one simple fact that alot of hydro gardeners overlook: the water you start with is CRUCIALLY important, I have been helping others for a couple years and when I finally got to set my own spot up. Major kH issues here - the kH of their water from the tap is almost 7 and mine is under 1 - the weird fucked up part is that I CANNOT figure out how the water company gets their kH that high and maintains ppm total at 50-60 whereas my water is 40 ppm but if I raise my kH to even 3 w baking soda and calcium carbonate my ppm are like 100 and then when I feed I start locking out potassium and im PISSED

Hmm, according to my local water quality analysis Alkalinity was 2.9-13.2, apparently. Quite a range it seems!

Maybe I'll pony up for an RO system. Just having a hard time spending yet another few hundred bucks on a hobby that's done nothing but cost me money without paying me back with a single nug in far too long.

If I ever see another viable clone hopefully I'll be able to narrow down the problem... Good ol EZ clone.... fml, cuts have been in there over a month without a root in sight. It's worked before, cold water loop has the water temp perfect at 68f with the pump on 24/7. Cuts just sit there slowly degrading. Flushing the mom with nothing but Ph'd water to get N out of her in hopes the next round of cuts take, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting discouraged.

Thanks for the insight. I really do appreciate it.

 

[Carboy]

Hmm, according to my local water quality analysis Alkalinity was 2.9-13.2, apparently. Quite a range it seems!

Maybe I'll pony up for an RO system. Just having a hard time spending yet another few hundred bucks on a hobby that's done nothing but cost me money without paying me back with a single nug in far too long.

If I ever see another viable clone hopefully I'll be able to narrow down the problem... Good ol EZ clone.... fml, cuts have been in there over a month without a root in sight. It's worked before, cold water loop has the water temp perfect at 68f with the pump on 24/7. Cuts just sit there slowly degrading. Flushing the mom with nothing but Ph'd water to get N out of her in hopes the next round of cuts take, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting discouraged.

Thanks for the insight. I really do appreciate it.

You have my sympathy for all your trouble. Here's what I would suggest and please remember this is no more my opinion.
First, your cuts. That 68 is too cool. The root zone needs to be in the mid 70s to low 80s. Look thru IC and try some other cutting methods. As said many times, a combination of art and science. There are several ways that are easy and cheap to set up and try. Without a strong mom, you are making it doubly hard. Unless you have another plant supply, I would think that this area should be your priority.
Once you get some good cuts, put them in a soil mix, coco combo or the like. Use a media. Starting on hydro is a tough road. You could get lucky but doesn't sound like you have so far. W/ what you've said about your water, a 100 bucks for a RO is cheap insurance and I don't think running w/o one w/ hydro is even an option. You'll eliminate so many variables it's not even funny, regardless of method.
Sounds like you've got the climate control in good shape. The C02 isn't going to do any good until the other is straightened out. Be sure you've got good airflow -- much more important. Then quit screwing around w/ the nutes. Get some Jack Pro and Calnite from Peters lab http://www.jrpeterslab.com/order_now.html or consult w/ http://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/ . All you are doing yoyoing around is fucking yourself. Give a balanced feeding schedule and fine tune later after you've got something to work with.
The short version is you are trying to run before you walk. I'm not trying to be harsh but you need to get it where you've got simple nailed then expand.
All the best ---- CB

 

[SensiBC]

The thing is, I've read so many aero cloning threads it's ridiculous and many of them surmise that it is imperative to keep the temps down in aero cloners to avoid the dreaded slime. I've been battling it on and off since I bought the Ez-Clone a couple years ago. Water temps in the 80's pretty much guarantees mushy stems and clone death in these things. Now perhaps 68 is too low, I can always bump it up a bit, but how far into the 70's I can take it before I reach the point of diminishing returns is a bit of a quandary.

I realize I'm kinda taking this thread off topic for the Nutes forum since I just run plain tap water in the thing, but what the hell, it's my thread, right? lol

When I first got the Ez-Clone I tried running it 24/7 as instructed by the manufacturer. I had no supplemental cooling, so temps shot up into the 80's with a quickness. All of the stems turned to mush.

I then got a timer and ran it 15 minutes on, 15 off, no supplemental cooling so temps usually stayed in the mid 70's. Sometimes I got roots, sometimes I got slime. Even when I got some of them to root, only a fraction of the cuts survived, 10 of 50 maybe. Usually the foliage would deteriorate before the cuts showed any roots.

I've only recently added the cooling loop and tried keeping the pump on 24/7, but it appears not to be doing the trick. I've been letting the mother go deficient in hopes that the lack of Nitrogen in her will promote rooting, and will be taking more cuts tonight. We'll see how it goes.

If this round of cuts doesn't take I'll try to get some liquid Clonex solution and run it in there. Perhaps I'll play with the temps a bit as well. If neither of those things does the trick, I'm selling the POS and going back to trays and domes... not that I had very good luck there either. Between mold, severe drooping, too moist, too dry, etc, trays and domes were not really friends of mine. Gotta do what I've gotta do though.

Back on topic of Nutrients, I think the aforementioned nute mix should work well for me. Probably gotta dial total nute strength back for freshly rooted cuts, but once I find the sweet spot I suspect I'll be in business.

Thanks again everybody. Wish me luck!

 

[CannaDestroyer]

SensiBC - your enviroment is dialed, you are usually using a well proven formula (maxibloom and 7g per gal.) by process of elimination all of your problems are being caused by your water. the aero cloner is further evidence. using straight water and not even achieving roots, again your enviroment is well within acceptable parameters. all you need to solve your problems is an ro filter or other source of clean water, and to resterilize EVERYTHING. i've had 100 ppm tap water that looked and tasted great, but it flat out killed my house plants in month. stunted serverly all of my herb plants, and killed 99% of clones and seedlings. i changed out dirt, nutes, ph adjuster, pots, etc. thinking no way it was the water. took all of two days to show signs of improvment after giving the survivors clean water. case and point you're doing hydro, not wise to attempt any hydro grow without all of the proper equipment in place. get yourself a RO unit and get back to enjoying your grow.