LC/Greencure: OD Disease Control Dangers!
- Thread starter moondawg
- Start date
Harold i agree. I grew 8 crops and never saw it once. Then 2 years ago, it hit and it seems its here to stay.
I also believe its living in my soil. In the site that had it bad last year, they had it bad this year. It appeared much later and was less damaging at my 2 new sites. I will be treating the soil at my sites.
Im skeptical of the hydrogen peroxide. Ive read and read about fungicides and differnt diseases and ive yet to read a single professional gardening expert advocating hydrogen peroxide. I have also read some threads in the Infirmary section from folks that said it didnt work for them"..... but the suggestion really highlights the nature of the discussion because if you choose the wrong treatment, kiss your crop good bye. My experinece was you either kill it immediately after seeing or the plants continue to defoliate and die. Every product ive seen strongly recommended a preventative approach because once the plant has it, a cure is difficult. I found no window for guessing or testing: Kill it or go home is the bottom line around here..
I also believe its living in my soil. In the site that had it bad last year, they had it bad this year. It appeared much later and was less damaging at my 2 new sites. I will be treating the soil at my sites.
Im skeptical of the hydrogen peroxide. Ive read and read about fungicides and differnt diseases and ive yet to read a single professional gardening expert advocating hydrogen peroxide. I have also read some threads in the Infirmary section from folks that said it didnt work for them"..... but the suggestion really highlights the nature of the discussion because if you choose the wrong treatment, kiss your crop good bye. My experinece was you either kill it immediately after seeing or the plants continue to defoliate and die. Every product ive seen strongly recommended a preventative approach because once the plant has it, a cure is difficult. I found no window for guessing or testing: Kill it or go home is the bottom line around here..
The big problem with the disease control products is that you end up being a slave to your plants needs. Every new leaf that goes untreated will become a growth site for blight. All this coming and going with sprays into the guerrilla grows increases risks exponentially. I can't do it. It's one thing to got out early, when things are cool, but as the season progresses I do not like to be trampling paths once a week to spray every leaf, especially the undersides where the spores germinate.
I have a copy of Fedco Seeds catalogue which has the largest supply of OMRI and other certified organic products, some of which I have used:
Serenade-Bacillus subtilis colonizes plants with a bacteria that inhibits other fungal pathogens from getting a foothold. I used this extensively last year with modest results.
Concern Copper soap- registerd for indoor and out. A homeowners blend
Champ-77% Copper Hydroxide. Mentions copper PENETRATES leaf tissue
Actinovate-Streptomyces lydicus also colonizes plant surfaces making it harder for blight to gain a foothold
Plant Shield- uses Trichoderma harzianum to colonize, mentions blight control specifically.
That (actually the name of the product)Liquid Sulfur
Safer Garden Fungicide-12% elemental sulfur. Mentions leaf spot specifically
Micronized sulfur- also mentions leaf spot
Last year I tried a product available at Lowes called Organicide. It uses lecithin and sesame oil as a barrier. It seemed to work.
BUT all these products REQUIRE you to be in the right place at the right time for them to be effective. This would be the same with hydrogen peroxide.
My answer is that this year I am 100% autos. Start under lights in April. Out in the bush by May15. Harvested by mid July before the shit hits the fan. Now not only for security and stealth but also to bypass the leaf spot.
Good luck to everyone and anyone who solves this should get a Nobel nomination at least
I have a copy of Fedco Seeds catalogue which has the largest supply of OMRI and other certified organic products, some of which I have used:
Serenade-Bacillus subtilis colonizes plants with a bacteria that inhibits other fungal pathogens from getting a foothold. I used this extensively last year with modest results.
Concern Copper soap- registerd for indoor and out. A homeowners blend
Champ-77% Copper Hydroxide. Mentions copper PENETRATES leaf tissue
Actinovate-Streptomyces lydicus also colonizes plant surfaces making it harder for blight to gain a foothold
Plant Shield- uses Trichoderma harzianum to colonize, mentions blight control specifically.
That (actually the name of the product)Liquid Sulfur
Safer Garden Fungicide-12% elemental sulfur. Mentions leaf spot specifically
Micronized sulfur- also mentions leaf spot
Last year I tried a product available at Lowes called Organicide. It uses lecithin and sesame oil as a barrier. It seemed to work.
BUT all these products REQUIRE you to be in the right place at the right time for them to be effective. This would be the same with hydrogen peroxide.
My answer is that this year I am 100% autos. Start under lights in April. Out in the bush by May15. Harvested by mid July before the shit hits the fan. Now not only for security and stealth but also to bypass the leaf spot.
Good luck to everyone and anyone who solves this should get a Nobel nomination at least
harold
Member
i think the answer to this new age decline in health of bio-life has a very dark answer... please watch this fascinating documentry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9rXydMmfw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9rXydMmfw&feature=related
agreeee... we have found once it hits(speaking of mold)... ballgame is over... once it hits, we r out there every day clipping more mold off these once lovely large buds. the last two years we have lost well over 50%, prob closer to 70% to mold... this year will b the last time we grow outdoors, unless we find a strain that does not mold, and produces potent bud... not interested in growing weed that aint going to kick-ass...
Grow Rox zachrockbadenof. It wont mould
ronbo51, thats an interesting post. Youre right about the amount of attention required for the plants because of this disease. But in my case, the reason i was making so many trips is because i didnt know how to fight the disease and had to keep returning to see if the product i had applied was working or whether more plants had the disease.
Once i discovered and used the Lcopper, the trips were reduced. But.... had i known about how Lc works and how to use it i could have applied it early and avoided all of the trips. I didnt know. I need more potency than auto's provide.
I appreciate the info youve provided. I need options and you provided a bunch. Good info and im googling now to check out some of the products youve listed. Plant shield? Can you expand on that?
I have 3 bottle of the Organicide because my lowes had it on the discount rack for 1$ a bottle. I figured "Why not, ive used everything else.?
In fact ronbo51, im thinking of applying Greencure, and after it dries, hitting them with the organicide which is sessame seed oil. At this point, im experimenting.
ronbo51, thats an interesting post. Youre right about the amount of attention required for the plants because of this disease. But in my case, the reason i was making so many trips is because i didnt know how to fight the disease and had to keep returning to see if the product i had applied was working or whether more plants had the disease.
Once i discovered and used the Lcopper, the trips were reduced. But.... had i known about how Lc works and how to use it i could have applied it early and avoided all of the trips. I didnt know. I need more potency than auto's provide.
I appreciate the info youve provided. I need options and you provided a bunch. Good info and im googling now to check out some of the products youve listed. Plant shield? Can you expand on that?
I have 3 bottle of the Organicide because my lowes had it on the discount rack for 1$ a bottle. I figured "Why not, ive used everything else.?
In fact ronbo51, im thinking of applying Greencure, and after it dries, hitting them with the organicide which is sessame seed oil. At this point, im experimenting.
Rootshield is the homeowners version of plantshield. Plantshield is 3# for 175$ and is used as a rootdrench, and a cutting/transplant immersion. Rootshield is 1/4# for 14.50. It says:As a seed drench mix1-3 tbsp/gallon of water. Use the same dilution for transplants and established plants. In NY tests when two trichoderma drenches were applied to tomato transplants the plants showed increased resistance to early blight. EPA registration 68539-4. OMRI listed.
Just like Serenade, if you go down the microherd road, you need to reapply often late in the season when plant stress and climate conditions favor leaf septoria. If you get rattled and think about going to a stronger control once you apply any fungicide you have obviously killed the herd and your plants become very vulnerable to conditional disease.
For me the canary in the mine is my tomatoes. Nothing gets leaf disease easier. If something can work on maters it will work on anything. Plant some heirlooms this spring. All the tomato hybridizing was done to implant disease resistance so the heirloom tomatoes have none and they will get leaf spot. If you can find a product that works reliably on tomatoes then take it into the bush and have at it. Serenade worked some for me but failed late in the season. Organicide worked on my late planting of autos, but in both cases I hammered them weekly to fight the onslought.
Just like Serenade, if you go down the microherd road, you need to reapply often late in the season when plant stress and climate conditions favor leaf septoria. If you get rattled and think about going to a stronger control once you apply any fungicide you have obviously killed the herd and your plants become very vulnerable to conditional disease.
For me the canary in the mine is my tomatoes. Nothing gets leaf disease easier. If something can work on maters it will work on anything. Plant some heirlooms this spring. All the tomato hybridizing was done to implant disease resistance so the heirloom tomatoes have none and they will get leaf spot. If you can find a product that works reliably on tomatoes then take it into the bush and have at it. Serenade worked some for me but failed late in the season. Organicide worked on my late planting of autos, but in both cases I hammered them weekly to fight the onslought.
BTW- the real answer is probably strain resistance. If your sensi star is resistant then grow only that. If one or two plants out of a batch show extreme resistance you should paint a few bottom branches with pollen and further the line. Disease resistance is one of the prime goals of vegetable hybridizing for a good reason. Its a dirty fucking world out there and you can't lose crops to disease. Creating an IBL or hybrid with strong septoria resistance should be a goal of some breeders. Would you buy seeds of a good strain that had bulletproof leafspot protection??
its sold out on the boo...
Zach, you might try other vendors. Its a popular strain for folks with your dilemna.
ronbo51, youre adding some quality info to my resources and i thank you. If i cant whip this shit, i cant grow anymore. But. I have to say that the Liquid Copper was truly effective and any plant that wasnt overrun with the disease, saw immediate improvement in every case with the copper. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that had i used the copper as a preventative tool, my plants would never have gotten the disease in the first place. Even though its very effective, Im afraid of Toxicity with LC.
You are right on with the tomato observation. I realized last season that MY tomatoes are canaries in the mine, but also my shade leaves were canaries. properly grown cannabis should never have a yellow shade leaf on it anywhere until 3 weeks from full maturity. If it does, and its not bug damage, there is a problem.
Youre also right about the Sensi star. It is the only strain i have grow with real, observable resistance. In 2 years, the disease has failed to killl a single ss plant. The plants were much slower to get the disease and when they did get it, defoliation was limited and damage to the plant was somewhat limited, but... the disease cleary impacted growth, health and yeild. Even though they didnt defoliate and die, they did slow the maturation and yeild was greatly effected. In the one site i had that only had SS plants in it, the disease was observed, but much later than with other strains and with far less damage to the plants. I didnt treat a single sensi star plant, yet none have died.
Every Green House strain ive grown has been terribly succeptable with no resistance. Himalayn Gold got the disease and every plant was dead in 2 weeks. The Magus Biddy Early also very susceptable and once the dieseas is present, even the LC had limited impact on these strains..
Many in my gardening club are suggesting this product. What do you think?
http://www.agraquest.com/agrochemical/products/fungicides-serenade-max.php
ronbo51, youre adding some quality info to my resources and i thank you. If i cant whip this shit, i cant grow anymore. But. I have to say that the Liquid Copper was truly effective and any plant that wasnt overrun with the disease, saw immediate improvement in every case with the copper. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that had i used the copper as a preventative tool, my plants would never have gotten the disease in the first place. Even though its very effective, Im afraid of Toxicity with LC.
You are right on with the tomato observation. I realized last season that MY tomatoes are canaries in the mine, but also my shade leaves were canaries. properly grown cannabis should never have a yellow shade leaf on it anywhere until 3 weeks from full maturity. If it does, and its not bug damage, there is a problem.
Youre also right about the Sensi star. It is the only strain i have grow with real, observable resistance. In 2 years, the disease has failed to killl a single ss plant. The plants were much slower to get the disease and when they did get it, defoliation was limited and damage to the plant was somewhat limited, but... the disease cleary impacted growth, health and yeild. Even though they didnt defoliate and die, they did slow the maturation and yeild was greatly effected. In the one site i had that only had SS plants in it, the disease was observed, but much later than with other strains and with far less damage to the plants. I didnt treat a single sensi star plant, yet none have died.
Every Green House strain ive grown has been terribly succeptable with no resistance. Himalayn Gold got the disease and every plant was dead in 2 weeks. The Magus Biddy Early also very susceptable and once the dieseas is present, even the LC had limited impact on these strains..
Many in my gardening club are suggesting this product. What do you think?
http://www.agraquest.com/agrochemical/products/fungicides-serenade-max.php
Just one other point about Liquid Copper. I havent heard another person say anything about this, but its been on my mind.
As directed on the label, i sprayed a healthy cannabis plant with a reduced concentration of the fungicide to test for chem damage to the plant, before i used the stuff on my entire grow.,. For the next 2 days, i inspected the plant for burn or other damage. Since i was watching closely for damage, i was set aback by the observation that far from damaging the plant, it looked healthier than ever. It immediately was greener and seemed overall much healthier and the growth rate improved!. I sprayed other plants and got the very same response.
I really cant explain the effect. Growing up on a farm, i feel somewhat like it is similar to injecting antibiotics into cattle. They immediately grow faster, look healthier and put on more wieght. I think perhaps the LC killled pathogens on the plant that werent visually harming it, but did impact growth and yeild. In further reading, tobacco farmers apply fungicides to tobacco for the same reasons farmers give antibiotics to cattle, it improves growth and yeild.
The same may be true of cannabis and the use of LC or other fungicides. The impact on my plants suggested it is. If it werent for toxicity issues, i would have sprayed every plant i grow with LC because of its impact on the health and vigor of the plant.,
As directed on the label, i sprayed a healthy cannabis plant with a reduced concentration of the fungicide to test for chem damage to the plant, before i used the stuff on my entire grow.,. For the next 2 days, i inspected the plant for burn or other damage. Since i was watching closely for damage, i was set aback by the observation that far from damaging the plant, it looked healthier than ever. It immediately was greener and seemed overall much healthier and the growth rate improved!. I sprayed other plants and got the very same response.
I really cant explain the effect. Growing up on a farm, i feel somewhat like it is similar to injecting antibiotics into cattle. They immediately grow faster, look healthier and put on more wieght. I think perhaps the LC killled pathogens on the plant that werent visually harming it, but did impact growth and yeild. In further reading, tobacco farmers apply fungicides to tobacco for the same reasons farmers give antibiotics to cattle, it improves growth and yeild.
The same may be true of cannabis and the use of LC or other fungicides. The impact on my plants suggested it is. If it werent for toxicity issues, i would have sprayed every plant i grow with LC because of its impact on the health and vigor of the plant.,
I think Serenade will work to the extent that you are willing to spray it every week for the last few months of the season. I hit my tomatoes pretty hard and in the end they got leaf spot and died. Now, at the end of a long season you have to expect plants to get tired and whither when the photoperiod is short and nighttime temps get cold and end of season stress just eats plants up, but... with marijuana you really need the plant to make it all the way til the end so you need success.
Really, I don't think serenade is the answer. Blast your area with a real hardass fungicide at planting and maybe during veg. Spray liquid Copper on the plants up until flowering. Then go with Organicide to finish. And, most importantly, go with your already proven resistant strain of SS. Also, get a few Sour 60"s from Mdanzig and try them. You'll have high quality smoke when everything else is just getting going. You will be surprised.
Really, I don't think serenade is the answer. Blast your area with a real hardass fungicide at planting and maybe during veg. Spray liquid Copper on the plants up until flowering. Then go with Organicide to finish. And, most importantly, go with your already proven resistant strain of SS. Also, get a few Sour 60"s from Mdanzig and try them. You'll have high quality smoke when everything else is just getting going. You will be surprised.
Very interesting thread, I had the same problem last year,I solved it partially with liquid copper, this year I'll prevention with Equisetum ( maybe horsetail in english)
I pray the gods of the forest for a beautiful new 2011 season to all
Trichoderma also can help
http://www.biocontrol.entomology.cornell.edu/pathogens/trichoderma.html
I pray the gods of the forest for a beautiful new 2011 season to all
Trichoderma also can help
http://www.biocontrol.entomology.cornell.edu/pathogens/trichoderma.html
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Wow great to see this thread alive and growing.
I personally don’t think spraying the soil helps because of how wide spread leaf spot is. I have seen it in an area of 10 square miles. I promise its not an exaggeration I had two plots around 10 miles from each other and both areas were hit very hard. Large tracts of grasslands had dead areas from the disease. Fruit trees seem to get hit the worst and anything below these trees get massacred by the infected rain run off from them. I can’t see how spraying an area 30x30ft will do little, in my opinion, to halt it. I think the time and effort should be on spraying your plants.
I did a lot of research and it spreads by spores, which are released in early spring and fall. The spores land on the leaves and stay there until the conditions become ripe, hot and very humid or rain hits them. That’s how they spread is via moisture. Every bit of research I read said an oz of presentation is worth a pound of cure. Once the plant is severely infected not much will help except dry conditions.
I think spraying LC once in early spring and for sure in late July is the way to go.
I personally don’t think spraying the soil helps because of how wide spread leaf spot is. I have seen it in an area of 10 square miles. I promise its not an exaggeration I had two plots around 10 miles from each other and both areas were hit very hard. Large tracts of grasslands had dead areas from the disease. Fruit trees seem to get hit the worst and anything below these trees get massacred by the infected rain run off from them. I can’t see how spraying an area 30x30ft will do little, in my opinion, to halt it. I think the time and effort should be on spraying your plants.
I did a lot of research and it spreads by spores, which are released in early spring and fall. The spores land on the leaves and stay there until the conditions become ripe, hot and very humid or rain hits them. That’s how they spread is via moisture. Every bit of research I read said an oz of presentation is worth a pound of cure. Once the plant is severely infected not much will help except dry conditions.
I think spraying LC once in early spring and for sure in late July is the way to go.
ronbo51, i cant find the champ/ copper oxide. I want to read about leaf absorbtion. If you could direct me to that i would appreciate it.
Hey hamstring!! I plan to use the LC as well as long as i can be assured that it doesnt linger in the plant. Im having real trouble finding detailed info about how fast it disipates and what causes its dissipation.
The reasons im convinced that the ground and surrounding vegetation must be sprayed are 2 fold. First, every article or description of the disease, along with every product ive looked at for the disease has stated that its in the soil and in the dead material lying on the ground from last year and that treating it is an absolute must. With those declarations in mind, i add the fact that the first signs of the disease and the worst cases of the disease occurred in the same spots it was bad last year. Those combined aspects dictate spraying for me.
You are right that its in the wind as well, but i think the viralence of the disease is less when it lands on the pant as opposed to when it comes from the soil or weeds near the plant. I had plants in new locations far from the spots that had it last year and they were infected with it, so it blew in on them, but they took weeks to deteriorate and where the disease was present last year, the plants were quickly decimated.. Unfortunately it is all over wild black cherry trees and they grow everywhere here. I do feel some hope however. None of the sensi star plants got the disease from the wind. The only ss plants that caught the disease were plants that were planted along side GH White widow and Biddy E. Neither of those strains have any resistance at all and both had the disease bad.
I have a problem to some extent in that im growing the same plant in the same spot year after year and all of the products suggest that this practice will facilitate the disease, but grow spots arent that easy to come by. I cant move. So in my case, i know its there and i know if i cant kill it, its going to be on my plants agains this year.
hamsting, take a look at these 2 pictures. The first pic is of a plant that i first noticed leaf yellowing on a weekend and it was dead within days. It was planted in the site that had a himalayan gold that died completely within a week.
The second pic is of a plant that got the disease in the wind. It improved after treatement, but took weeks, over a month to die. The only difference between the plants in my view was their planting location.
Hey hamstring!! I plan to use the LC as well as long as i can be assured that it doesnt linger in the plant. Im having real trouble finding detailed info about how fast it disipates and what causes its dissipation.
The reasons im convinced that the ground and surrounding vegetation must be sprayed are 2 fold. First, every article or description of the disease, along with every product ive looked at for the disease has stated that its in the soil and in the dead material lying on the ground from last year and that treating it is an absolute must. With those declarations in mind, i add the fact that the first signs of the disease and the worst cases of the disease occurred in the same spots it was bad last year. Those combined aspects dictate spraying for me.
You are right that its in the wind as well, but i think the viralence of the disease is less when it lands on the pant as opposed to when it comes from the soil or weeds near the plant. I had plants in new locations far from the spots that had it last year and they were infected with it, so it blew in on them, but they took weeks to deteriorate and where the disease was present last year, the plants were quickly decimated.. Unfortunately it is all over wild black cherry trees and they grow everywhere here. I do feel some hope however. None of the sensi star plants got the disease from the wind. The only ss plants that caught the disease were plants that were planted along side GH White widow and Biddy E. Neither of those strains have any resistance at all and both had the disease bad.
I have a problem to some extent in that im growing the same plant in the same spot year after year and all of the products suggest that this practice will facilitate the disease, but grow spots arent that easy to come by. I cant move. So in my case, i know its there and i know if i cant kill it, its going to be on my plants agains this year.
hamsting, take a look at these 2 pictures. The first pic is of a plant that i first noticed leaf yellowing on a weekend and it was dead within days. It was planted in the site that had a himalayan gold that died completely within a week.
The second pic is of a plant that got the disease in the wind. It improved after treatement, but took weeks, over a month to die. The only difference between the plants in my view was their planting location.
ChampWG-" Copper is a broad spectrum fungicide and should be used only for specific problems after all other attempts have failed. Copper hydroxide will penetrate leaf tissue to kill bacterial and fungal spores, but may cause leaf damage. Contains the equivalent of50% metallic copper in micronized form, increasing coverage and penetration. Recommended rates of application vary from1/2 to 4 # per acre depending on crop and severity of disease outbreak. Also provides some protection against light frost. EPA registration55146-1.OMRI" 20# 155.00$
ronbo, the champ is copper hydroxide and the Liquid copper is Copper octanoate. The percentages of copper seems different but im having trouble finding out the differences or how either chemical deteriorates.
I found this
"Several natural remedies may be employed by organic farmers for foliar disease management. These include a wide range of products and practices including: compost watery extracts; hydrogen peroxide; sodium bicarbonate; foliar fertilizers; plant extracts (fermented nettle tea, equisetum tea, comfrey tea); and biostimulants (seaweed, humates). The precise mode of action for many of these materials remains to be discovered.
Of these, compost watery extracts and hydrogen peroxide look promising for the control of tomato diseases like early blight. Compost extracts have proven effective for several vegetable diseases, including late blight of tomatoes.(51) See the ATTRA publication Notes on Compost Teas for references and resources.
Little information is available on the use and efficacy of hydrogen peroxide. Growers in New Jersey are using 35% hydrogen peroxide and diluting it to a 0.5%-1% foliar spray solution, though lower rates are also common. Rates of 2% and 4% are being used as a post-harvest wash. A 1% solution is equivalent to 3.7 oz in 124.3 oz of water, while a 0.5% solution is equivalent to 1.8 oz in 126.2 oz of water.(52)"
I found this
"Several natural remedies may be employed by organic farmers for foliar disease management. These include a wide range of products and practices including: compost watery extracts; hydrogen peroxide; sodium bicarbonate; foliar fertilizers; plant extracts (fermented nettle tea, equisetum tea, comfrey tea); and biostimulants (seaweed, humates). The precise mode of action for many of these materials remains to be discovered.
Of these, compost watery extracts and hydrogen peroxide look promising for the control of tomato diseases like early blight. Compost extracts have proven effective for several vegetable diseases, including late blight of tomatoes.(51) See the ATTRA publication Notes on Compost Teas for references and resources.
Little information is available on the use and efficacy of hydrogen peroxide. Growers in New Jersey are using 35% hydrogen peroxide and diluting it to a 0.5%-1% foliar spray solution, though lower rates are also common. Rates of 2% and 4% are being used as a post-harvest wash. A 1% solution is equivalent to 3.7 oz in 124.3 oz of water, while a 0.5% solution is equivalent to 1.8 oz in 126.2 oz of water.(52)"
Harold
I don’t think so this disease is a result of our changing climate. We seem to get more rain and humidity every year and I think that the huge outbreaks are a result of it. In the past we may have a wet year but a dry year was soon to follow. This combination keeps the leaf spot down to a minimum.
Now on the other hand this hot humid weather we keep having every year doesn’t help self regulate this disease. It keeps getting worse every year.
DS
So we have some direct info that hydrogen peroxide does in fact work against this. It nice to hear there is at least a second choice from LC. Nice work finding that.
