Day 7 from seed, discolouration - HPS at fault?

[tennesseetoker]

i've heard that the hps stunts a veggin plant for a short period and heard that the plants would be fine under them which is it? I was told that for some reason the color of the spectrum of light that the hps gives off obviously more orange than floro's or metal halide and wasn't as what veggin plants desired.

 

[BET]

hate to do this again, but http://www.mandalaseeds.com/Guides/Germination-Guide

recommends HPS light immediately

your plant looks fine to me, who knows nothing

Thanks Marquis, sorry I should have said that I'd heard HPS was fine, I was just concerned that due to the stress of the soil change the HPS might have been a tad too much for the little girl.


OK, rather than spam the forum with new threads, here are some pics at day 30 from seed - mainly because I'm starting to get concerned that there is something wrong here. Please say if I'm just being impatient


The plant is currently about 3" in height, and growth seems to have all but stopped in the last week or so. About 8 days ago I changed the soil because the peatless compost I used was probably not suitable for the seedling, as it was mainly decomposed tree bark. No real soil to get the roots stuck in. The new soil mix was part compost, part soil from the garden which previously had a blueberry bush in, and about 1/3 perlite. There is a much higher soil content in this mix and it has been out in the rain all winter so it won't have many nutes in it if any.

When I transplanted, the roots were weak but there was a small growth spurt after about a week which saw some new shoots, but since then nothing much has happened in either height or leaf development. On top of that, I found out that for about 3 days the light timer had packed up so my HPS was left on 24/7 for that 3 day period, which I can't imagine was good for the plant, although temps would not have really exceeded 85 degree's MAX in all that time because my fan was hooked up to the same timer on an extension lead, so it would have been keeping temps down whilst the light was still on.

It has now been about 4 days since its been back on a proper 18/6 light cycle but the plant remains at around 3" in height, and in about 48 hours I cannot really visually distinguish any form of progression.

Things for me to consider that I have control over are the growing medium and the water. The soil has previously grown blueberry bushes in that were fantastic, so I think the soil is OK. I removed any sign of old roots from it before using it again. The water is from the water butt outside so is straight from mother nature. I haven't pH tested it because I thought that natural rain water was probably balanced, but I understand now that it can vary depending on your location.


So, here's the pics (sorry for the essay so far);








I know there have been hicups in this grow, but I had to ask the question seeing as some peoples plants are nearly a foot in height at a month old (?)

I've just acquired an old wardrobe, so will kit that out for flowering next time and I'll use this smaller cabinet as a vegging chamber

 

[Sandnut]

there is something wrong with your water or soil, have you checked ph levels?

 

[Deft]

there is something wrong with your water or soil, have you checked ph levels?

I second this. Compost is death for seedlings, too hot and active IMO. Compost can be thought of as fertilizer, and seedlings don't need any of that.

I would just use some nice quality peat based stuff like fafard etc, garden soil is too dense IMO and can suffocate roots if its too wet/high temp. No nutes till it has some 5 finger leaves and probably 3-4 nodes and a good full root base, it needs mass and "growing momentum" as I call it to use nutes. When you start using nutes do it every other watering at very low concentration, I use ~250ppm hydro nutes.

I plant in small clear cups so I can see the moisture content and disposition of the roots. Big pots hold too much water IMO and the plant should fit the pot.

 

[BET]

there is something wrong with your water or soil, have you checked ph levels?

Nope, will check ph as a priority now

I too thought that the soil or water were the two most likely causes. The rest of the environment bar the timer packing up is fairly good. I'll check the ph, but I think I should also change the soil once more. Any tips on doing that other than just REALLY carefully?

Thanks chaps


BET

 

[BET]

I second this. Compost is death for seedlings, too hot and active IMO. Compost can be thought of as fertilizer, and seedlings 'need any of that.

I would just use some nice quality peat based stuff like fafard etc, .

Thanks for the advice, I live in the UK and fafard is US based by the looks of it. What about something like BioBizz All mix? I can get 20ltr over in the UK easily enough. Would that do the trick? I've googled 'organic peat based potting soil uk' and found it that way. Any opinion on that?

Other option is John Innes, I don't want to go near miracle grow from what I've read on the Interwebz...

Cheers


BET

 

[Deft]

When you said kit I knew lol. Got friends in London.

Anything that is peat and perlite with no mention of added nutes should be fine.

I just googled that biobiz all mix stuff and it looks like it has organic nutes and kelp etc. Looks like its made for MJ so it would probably be ok for once you pot up but anything that is just peat and perlite is good IMO. I would use it over what you have going now but the fact that it has guano etc in it and we don't know how much of the additives worries me a little. Might be too strong for seedlings but I don't know.

Just found this in a description on a hydro supply site "All-Mix is a heavily pre-fertilized soil mix*ture" so I don't think this is good for seedlings.

I would go to a local nursery and look for/ask for some peat based potting soil with no nutes or anything special. I never used miracle grow except the fertilizer in the garden, seems like the soil mixes they put out are mostly with their fertilizer added so I agree its probably not he best.

When you do transplant check out the roots for discoloration/death. The way your leaves are yellowed and dying I bet your roots are dying too but the plant can still come back I bet. Of course be careful and it's ok to leave some of the old soil on if it will damage healthy roots trying to get it off.

 

[budlover123]

Yeah, I bet those plants got too much nutrients from the medium, its so hard to tell, eh?

 

[BET]

When you said kit I knew lol. Got friends in London.

Anything that is peat and perlite with no mention of added nutes should be fine.

I just googled that biobiz all mix stuff and it looks like it has organic nutes and kelp etc. Looks like its made for MJ so it would probably be ok for once you pot up but anything that is just peat and perlite is good IMO. I would use it over what you have going now but the fact that it has guano etc in it and we don't know how much of the additives worries me a little. Might be too strong for seedlings but I don't know.

Just found this in a description on a hydro supply site "All-Mix is a heavily pre-fertilized soil mix*ture" so I don't think this is good for seedlings.

I would go to a local nursery and look for/ask for some peat based potting soil with no nutes or anything special. I never used miracle grow except the fertilizer in the garden, seems like the soil mixes they put out are mostly with their fertilizer added so I agree its probably not he best.

When you do transplant check out the roots for discoloration/death. The way your leaves are yellowed and dying I bet your roots are dying too but the plant can still come back I bet. Of course be careful and it's ok to leave some of the old soil on if it will damage healthy roots trying to get it off.

we have a way with words over here that is unmistakable

Appreciate the detailed response, that has really helped. I'll pick up some peat asap and check it has no nutes. Perlite is great stuff, never used it before but it means you have to water a little bit more I think because it drains so well.

I grew outside about 10 years ago at my mum and dads, I had ICE seeds and I got about 10oz off of two plants, it was immense but outside there was little to go wrong, you just let nature do its thing then stick it in a greenhouse in September to stop frost killing it. Indoors is a completely new thing to me, but I hope to get acquainted this year. Must check ph of water as well

Thanks Deft,

@OGmolton, I thought is was that or the water. I suspect its more likely the medium. n00b mistake


BET

 

[northstate]

That little sprout is getting toasted by that compost and if its from a blueberry bush they like it pretty acidic. The other posts will get you on track but dont over water the babys, that looks like part of whats happening to me, they can go for a week in a cup sometimes...Good luck and cheers, you will be fine.__NS

 

[BET]

That little sprout is getting toasted by that compost and if its from a blueberry bush they like it pretty acidic. The other posts will get you on track but dont over water the babys, that looks like part of whats happening to me, they can go for a week in a cup sometimes...Good luck and cheers, you will be fine.__NS

Thanks man, appreciate the supportive words

BET

 

[MagicChef]

To avoid the cold "off light" temps, could I suggest running your dark period during the day when it is naturally warmer, and your "lights on" during the night. This way you can avoid cold temps at night and warm temps during the day. I usually go lights on at night during the summer to avoid heat. In the winter it dosent really matter...

 

[BET]

To avoid the cold "off light" temps, could I suggest running your dark period during the day when it is naturally warmer, and your "lights on" during the night. This way you can avoid cold temps at night and warm temps during the day. I usually go lights on at night during the summer to avoid heat. In the winter it dosent really matter...

You sir, are a god damned GENIUS

I have been thinking about that for some time and looked at the possibility of adding a heater in there.... but now you've offered this simple but awesome piece of advice, I will do that now. After all, I'm repotting this evening with some proper potting soil, so I'm minimising the shock by doing a 2 for 1 - light cycle and soil change, rather than doing them separately which could cause more undue stress than is needed


Cheers!

BET

 

[BET]

Best B&Q could offer was John Innes No2 Potting compost, but I researched it on ma Android phone FTW and there seem to be people in the UK who swear by No's 1, 2 and 3 for the entire life cycle.

Potting this up felt really nice and fine between the fingers, and the perlite finishes it off nicely. A mate who has done some growing said to get some nitrogen in there, but I'm going to see how this baby recovers first before messing with anything else. I know that any form of ferts / nutes given incorrectly, especially the powdered variety can really screw up your grow due to inaccurate measuring etc. I'll leave that alone for the time being, and all else fails, I'll just take a piss in a cup and water it down with some water butt goodness


LOLOLOL.......... I said 'butt'


BET

 

[BET]

PS when I repotted, the roots did look weak as hell. Fingers crossed it comes back like a champ

BET

 

[mitch_connor]

Biobizz lightmix is great for seedlings if you can get it.
Not too rich in nutrients, but will sustain a very fast growing seedling (under 400/600w) in just a one litre pot for at least 2 weeks from sprout.
It's relatively cheap as well, under a tenner for a 50 litre bag

Your temps sounded hot aswell.. did you mention 85? try to get it down 10 degrees if thats still the case.

Hopefully you will see it recover, but if you have extra seeds i'd pop them and get them in the good stuff from the start.

 

[smokestack23]

Using medium that has already been used to grow something else is not a good idea. Neither is using medium that's been sitting outside or in a shed. If you DO use something that's been festering outside you should pasteurize it first in the oven.

All that said...medium isn't expensive. I'm sure you can fill a 3 gallon pot with pearlite, peat, sphagnum, coco..whatever...for under 5 pounds, dollars or euros..or pesos or buttons even.

Outdoor growing is different. You STILL need to know where you are nutrient-wise though and starting with a medium that has unknowns in it....well, that's like driving a car blindfolded.

Oh and...once you get that thing in some decent medium and healthier...I'd turn the cfls on AS WELL as the HPS.

AND and...24hours of light...while not an efficient use of electricity, won't harm your plants.

 

[BET]

Thanks guys, sorry I didn't check back and reply quickly... I have been busy converting an old closet into a cab up in my attic. Appreciate the feedback

@ mitch, I have 150w HPS and will probably move up to 400w next grow. I did look into Biobizz, so will consider it next time round yeah, 85 tops, bit hot I know. The current cab doesn't have the best ventilation, but the new one will

@ smokestack, thanks, I didn't know you could pasteurize medium like that, worth noting for future although buying fresh is indeed cheap enough to do. I also put the CFL's in there as well, I used a hole saw to put fittings in my existing HPS hood, and now have 4 extra CFL lights on as well as the HPS, so I guess technically the wattage is over 200w now. They are 11w lights, but put out effectively 45w of light... or so the packet says. I'm dubious about whether they put out what 'looks' like the equivalent of 45w...

Anyways, for completeness sake I thought I'd update the thread with some picks two weeks on from my last entry, so here they are;




I still have 3 leaf fans, but I understand that as it gets bigger and stronger and recovers from the savagery I put it through, it will see 5 leaf's later in the veg period. It looks a bit mutated, but I'm hoping that it carries on growing

Cheers


BET