Hobby Breeding Good or Bad?

[sourflower]

JLP was and still is the man! I grew many of his beans and loved them all




You know exaclty why Baba Ku. Because MOST female seeds are made with intersex plants. If you breed with interex plants your just going to increase the frequency of intersex plants in the progeny.

At the rate the world is going now with female seeds outselling regular line and a whole bunch of people who really dont know what they are doing breeding with these plants and passing these tainted genes arround all the cannabis in the world will be homogeneously intersex in no time..

Baba Ku, you allways have something to say when i speak out against female seeds. So you must know all about them. Please tell me off the top of your head 1 single breeder you know of that isnt 100% about making a quick proffit and actually takes the time to find and use a true female in their female lines?

This is wrong.Bad Info.
All plants have the potential to hermi.The problem with the Big fem companys is that they dont take the time to properly stress test their mom's to find the pheno's with the least likelyhood of going hermi.Soooo your not increasing the amount or frequency of hermi's,it's the same.

Femmed seeds are not the devil no matter how badly these refuse to change guy's want you to think they are.Femmed seeds are a huge help to alot of outdoor growers that dont have the time or space to clone.
Just try this...next time someone is hating on femmed lines ask them what they think of Auto's...chances are they will hate them as well and think auto's are killuing the world...most of the time it's a fear of change that drives these folks to hate anything out of the norm.

 

[Baba Ku]

The intersex mechanism can exist on many different levels. Some plants hold it in dominance, and it is in their genetic map. Such a plant may express the trait with very little stress at all...maybe just a light mess up or two would do it.
If we have a plant like this, we typically will not use it for breeding because we know that it has the chance to pass on it's traits.

Other plants have it instilled in their genetic map to hold the intersex trait way down deep and latent. It does not want to show, and it takes lots of stress to make it show itself. What would normally hermie the other plant would do nothing to this one.
However there is probably something that WILL make it show the very recessive trait it holds.

With both the plant that is hermie dominant and the plant that is hermie recessive, they were both caused to show the trait. The stress provided the plants is just a catalyst for the real action, which is the blocking of ethylene reception within the plant.
See, scientists know how and why the female plant shows male stamen. They know this, and can recreate it chemically using silver ions that cause the plant to do what it does in the first place.

The chemical treatment only blocks ethylene, which triggers the hermie mechanism. Nothing is changed in the gene or the genetic map.

I know it is real easy to start doing the "you are 100% wrong" or the "the damage will be done before all you fools realize" thing when you have such a strong gut feeling about such an issue. But that is all you have, a gut feeling. It is apparent that you have formulated your own take on things, and until you start to actually read up, you will keep making these claims that are...to be honest...nothing but bullshit.

 

[JWP]

but you and I are yet to find them ?

Have we looked?

Like the UK Cheese clone.

I'm no geneticist, i'm not even a breeder. All i have to go on is logic & reason.

This is wrong.Bad Info.

So if we stress test 100 clones of 100 seeds and remove the ones which hermie.
Then pollinate all the ones that hermied as batch one.
Then pollinate all together.

The freequency of intersex plant that react to a stess test in the progeny from both batches will be the same?

 

[angel4us]

chiming in on original thread !

chiming in on original thread !

Hell yes its a good thing -have no opinion/test/experience with feminized.
my backcrosses/crosses are prized buds - many prefer mine over many "new" pure strains. period .

 

[gingerale]

I'm no geneticist, i'm not even a breeder.

Clearly. Maybe you should try reading the "WTF is w/feminized genetics" thread before commenting further.

There is no such thing as an "intersex gene." Every single cannabis plant on the face of the earth carries the genetic information necessary to produce both male and female flowers. Which one (or both) is produced depends on threshold levels of hormones in the plant, primarily gibberrelic acid and ethylene. The necessary thresholds, and levels of hormones production under varying conditions, are all determined by each plant's individual genetics.

There may be some plants whose thresholds are low and/or ethylene production low enough that it is easy to stress them into producing intersex flowers. There might be others ("true females", "true males") who are damn near impossible to convert in this manner.

Additionally, there is the male "Y" chromosome which carries genes to bump up GA levels/inhibit ethylene, increase growth rate, induce earlier senescence, and other typical male cannabis traits, thus "overriding" female genes carried on the X.

Every single cannabis plant CAN and WILL be sexually "reversed" through the use of chemical treatment. Every single female cannabis plant CAN and WILL produce male flowers when treated with STS or CS. The ability to produce male flowers has NOTHING to do with any so called "intersex gene", as such a gene does not exist; ALL plants have this capability buried in them.

 

[Unclepeter]

Like the UK Cheese clone.

oh enough we both know thats bollock.. maybe just because you couldn't it should be taken as gospel?

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah the UK cheese was the one that was always held up as an example as a plant that wouldnt reverse... but now greenhouse have done it.

i agree with gingerale's post. all cannabis plants have the ability / information to show both sexes otherwise the genetic information wouldnt be complete.

can anyone name a plant/cut that doesnt reverse under CS/STS ?? now that the cheese has???.

as for hobby breeding - im all for it and make seeds all the time - sometimes from feminised plants.
dont let anyone tell you not to. most of the 'elite' clones werent even bred - their seeds were produced from accidental crosses as a result of herms. dont see many people turning those down

VG

 

[Baba Ku]

I have a female plant that will NOT reverse using STS. I have stressed her in many other ways including lights, nutes, and high temps. She will not produce stamen. SamSk claims to have one.
I think there most definitely are individuals that do nor carry the mechanism to intersex.

VD, I love you man...but I cannot trust that Arjan was able to reverse something that was previously reported as being non-reversible.
Others have made that same claim, yet their stuff don't turn out like the Cheese. Curious that.

I'd like to see Chimera weigh in with his opinion of things...and some reality.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey babba i'd love to know myself but others had already got cheese to produce male flowers - just no pollen... so really it's just one step further.

perhaps there are 'true' females, but i just dont see how really. how about the widely held belief that sex is determned in the young plant and not pre-determined in the seed? wouldnt the information for the other sex still be there withing the genetics??

most plants have both male and female flowers, cannabis is very unusual that it has separate sex individuals, and this, for me, supports the fact that the genes are in there somewhere.

maybe your true sex female would reverse if you had a lab and the time to try many different concentrations/methods of reversing chemicals???

i dont know the answers lol but would love to learn more about this...

VG

 

[Unclepeter]

VD, I love you man...but I cannot trust that Arjan was able to reverse something that was previously reported as being non-reversible.
Others have made that same claim, yet their stuff don't turn out like the Cheese. Curious that.

I'd like to see Chimera weigh in with his opinion of things...and some reality.

Chim has the same cut that VC has VC HAS reversed it...

 

[Baba Ku]

Lots seem to think that the environment has lots to do with the sexuality of the plant, but I think that is bunk. Sure enviro stresses can trigger intersex expression, but the genes of the plant were most definitely and undoubtedly decided at the very moment of meiosis. Nothing until, and no change after.
It is what it is at recombination.

aaa...I really didn't mention Chimera in reference to him having knowledge of a cut...but for his breeding knowledge in general. I think he may have an opinion whether plants can be true perfect females or not.

 

[Unclepeter]

Lots seem to think that the environment has lots to do with the sexuality of the plant, but I think that is bunk. Sure enviro stresses can trigger intersex expression, but the genes of the plant were most definitely and undoubtedly decided at the very moment of meiosis. Nothing until, and no change after.
It is what it is at recombination.

aaa...I really didn't mention Chimera in reference to him having knowledge of a cut...but for his breeding knowledge in general. I think he may have an opinion whether plants can be true perfect females or not.

he commented in the thread GitT linked to you.

 

[VerdantGreen]

oh yeah, i think the reason why cheese S1 or backcross etc doesnt smell like cheese is because the 'cheese' terpene isnt true breeding. afaik S1's only reliably show traits from their parent that are true breeding..

 

[VerdantGreen]

this link suggests that sex is far from pre-determined, and there are evoutaionary advantages to environment helping decide sex...
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g63q1810583t0pj7/

When the shoots of young hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) plants were cut off the roots, cultured as cuttings, and regenerating (adventitious) roots were removed as soon as appearing, ca. 80–90% of the plants became male (had staminate flowers) whereas if the roots were allowed to develop a similar percentage became female (pistillate flowers). Treatment of de-rooted cuttings with 6-benzylaminopurine (15 mg/l) restored the percent of female plants to ca. 80. It is suggested that the root system plays an essential role in sex expression in hemp and that this role is related to cytokinin synthesis in the root.

 

[Baba Ku]

I think that study is dealing with the roots as being another area of stress that can trigger a sexual expression. Expression being the key word. The plant itself received either a pair of X's at the eighth set of chromosomes, or a X and a Y. This happened at the moment of meiosis, and there is no amount of stress that will change what the chromosomes are. What can happen is the sexuality of the plant can express in different ways. But the set of sex determining chromosomes were decided and set in stone at the very moment of recombination.
Environment can only change what a given plant can express, and not change what it is.
Now in time, populations can find ways to adapt themselves and evolve in a favorable direction. This drift is still much of a mystery to me, and I could use a good bit of study, but I think the work of Darwin and others shows us that this is not bollocks.
But, considering environment actually changing the sex of a plant, that is bollocks. It may well cause a plant to express it's sexuality in different ways, but there is no metamorphosis of chromosomes taking place.

 

[highonmt]

hey babba i'd love to know myself but others had already got cheese to produce male flowers - just no pollen... so really it's just one step further.

perhaps there are 'true' females, but i just dont see how really. how about the widely held belief that sex is determned in the young plant and not pre-determined in the seed? wouldnt the information for the other sex still be there withing the genetics??

most plants have both male and female flowers, cannabis is very unusual that it has separate sex individuals, and this, for me, supports the fact that the genes are in there somewhere.

maybe your true sex female would reverse if you had a lab and the time to try many different concentrations/methods of reversing chemicals???

i dont know the answers lol but would love to learn more about this...

VG

Baba it turns out you are right about expression but it's mor complicated than just X and Y chromosomes... Cannabis sexuality is more interesting than we thought.

Here is a wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis#Reproduction with useful links as to the sexual expression in cannabis. It seems that the great magority; if not all cannabis strains are able to be switched to either sex if manipulated correctly. Evironmental conditions and chemical influences are both proven to effect sexual expression in cannabis. Collodial silver or gibberilic acid makes em masculine, Auxins and Ethylene makes em more feminine. Hope some folks find this as useful as I did.


Cannabis is predominantly dioecious,[15][56] although many monoecious varieties have been described.[57] Subdioecy (the occurrence of monoecious individuals and dioecious individuals within the same population) is widespread.[58][59][60] Many populations have been described as sexually labile.[48][61][62]
As a result of intensive selection in cultivation, Cannabis exhibits many sexual phenotypes that can be described in terms of the ratio of female to male flowers occurring in the individual, or typical in the cultivar.[63] Dioecious varieties are preferred for drug production, where typically the female flowers are used. Dioecious varieties are also preferred for textile fiber production, whereas monoecious varieties are preferred for pulp and paper production. It has been suggested that the presence of monoecy can be used to differentiate licit crops of monoecious hemp from illicit drug crops.[58] However, the so-called "sativa" drug strains often produce monoecious individuals, probably as a result of inbreeding.
Mechanisms of sex determination

Cannabis has been described as having one of the most complicated mechanisms of sex determination among the dioecious plants.[63] Many models have been proposed to explain sex determination in Cannabis.
Based on studies of sex reversal in hemp, it was first reported by K. Hirata in 1924 that an XY sex-determination system is present.[61] At the time, the XY system was the only known system of sex determination. The X:A system was first described in Drosophila spp in 1925.[64] Soon thereafter, Schaffner disputed Hirata's interpretation,[65] and published results from his own studies of sex reversal in hemp, concluding that an X:A system was in use and that furthermore sex was strongly influenced by environmental conditions.[62]
Since then, many different types of sex determination systems have been discovered, particularly in plants.[56] Dioecy is relatively uncommon in the plant kingdom, and a very low percentage of dioecious plant species have been determined to use the XY system. In most cases where the XY system is found it is believed to have evolved recently and independently.[66]
Since the 1920s, a number of sex determination models have been proposed for Cannabis. Ainsworth describes sex determination in the genus as using "an X/autosome dosage type".[56]
The question of whether heteromorphic sex chromosomes are indeed present is most conveniently answered if such chromosomes were clearly visible in a karyotype. Cannabis was one of the first plant species to be karyotyped; however, this was in a period when karyotype preparation was primitive by modern standards (see History of Cytogenetics). Heteromorphic sex chromosomes were reported to occur in staminate individuals of dioecious "Kentucky" hemp, but were not found in pistillate individuals of the same variety. Dioecious "Kentucky" hemp was assumed to use an XY mechanism. Heterosomes were not observed in analyzed individuals of monoecious "Kentucky" hemp, nor in an unidentified German cultivar. These varieties were assumed to have sex chromosome composition XX.[67] According to other researchers, no modern karyotype of Cannabis had been published as of 1996.[68] Proponents of the XY system state that Y chromosome is slightly larger than the X, but difficult to differentiate cytologically.[69]
More recently, Sakamoto and various co-authors[70][71] have used RAPD to isolate several genetic marker sequences that they name Male-Associated DNA in Cannabis (MADC), and which they interpret as indirect evidence of a male chromosome. Several other research groups have reported identification of male-associated markers using RAPD and AFLP.[24][48][72] Ainsworth commented on these findings, stating,

"It is not surprising that male-associated markers are relatively abundant. In dioecious plants where sex chromosomes have not been identified, markers for maleness indicate either the presence of sex chromosomes which have not been distinguished by cytological methods or that the marker is tightly linked to a gene involved in sex determination.[56]"
​

Environmental sex determination is known to occur in a variety of species.[73] Many researchers have suggested that sex in Cannabis is determined or strongly influenced by environmental factors.[62] Ainsworth reviews that treatment with auxin and ethylene have feminizing effects, and that treatment with cytokinins and gibberellins have masculinizing effects.[56] It has been reported that sex can be reversed in Cannabis using chemical treatment.[74] A PCR-based method for the detection of female-associated DNA polymorphisms by genotyping has been developed.[7

Cheers,
HM

 

[Baba Ku]

If you force a female to produce pollen using STS, you have manipulated it's sex as it were, but you did not change what it is, an XX female. Reveg it and see if it is not still a female...or did you miraculously change it's sex forever? No, you simply manipulated a sexual mechanism that the plant has.

Most plants that have been treated will revert back to producing pistols once the treatment starts to wear off. Many times S1's will be the result even if not tried for.
New growth on the plant that was forced will be pistol producing, and stamen will stop. Unless treated again of course.

 

[VerdantGreen]

the plot thickens, thanks for the responses guys.

 

[highonmt]

If you force a female to produce pollen using STS, you have manipulated it's sex as it were, but you did not change what it is, an XX female. Reveg it and see if it is not still a female...or did you miraculously change it's sex forever? No, you simply manipulated a sexual mechanism that the plant has.

As I state above you are correct about chemical manipulation of sexual Expression being just that.
However in cannabis it turns out that Sexual expression is not based simply on X and Y chromosomes; it is much more complicated and is just now being pieced together by AFLP etc. I have not preformed the experiment you reference, but I do know that if you environmentally stress a dioecious female cannabis plant in vegetative phase the cloned offspring will remain monoecious(hermy). Just ask my NYCD oh wait she is in hermy heaven... I will make the somewhat dangerous assumption that the reveged plant will remain monoecious to a degree. I'm not saying your wrong just that this plant is more complicated than Mendel's peas.
Cheers,
HM

 

[VerdantGreen]

afaik, not may plants have X Y sex determination.