Hobby Breeding Good or Bad?

[JWP]

Baba Ku,

Very damn few?

Well lets do the math. If true sex plants are between 10-30% of the population and you only select one female and one male for the cross thats a chance of between 20-60% that one of these plants is true sex and this dominant trait is passed on. If like many breeders you use more than on of each sex the chance is even higher.

Very damn few seems statistically insignificant. 20-60% or higher on the other hand is statistically significant.

Female seeds though use 100% intersex dominant plants! 100% is statistically significant as i'm sure many will agree.

I'm no geneticist but i'm 99% sure using plants with expressed genes compounds the problem even further.

That is the absolute truth of the situation and the nutts and bolts of my argument.

I know you are knowledgeable about breeding. If you cant see my point and comprehend my argument then realize the error in your argument then i have nothing left to say to you.


I did ask you a question though which you failed to answer about which female seed breeders are using the correct method. You failed to answer so i assume you have no answer?

The correct way to make female seeds would be to use one true female and another heterozygous sex female to reverse and pollinate.

If your female seed vendor cant confirm this is the process they use you can rest assured in the fact that they are a hack at best. If they cant lock this down in a simple female line how can you trust that they cant lock down any trait at all?

Edit: And about Joe Blow with his hand full of female seeds. When female seeds are outselling regular lines and Joe Blow represents millions of people arround the world you can bet you ass that these 100% intersex plants are causing significant damage to the global gene pool!!!

 

[Baba Ku]

First off you numbers are a bit off. It has been reported that approx. 10% of the cannabis population would not carry the intersex gene at all. This would equate to about 5% males and 5% females, no?

I do see your point, and have seen it from the start. Thing is, your point is off.

lol...let me ask you just how you would go about finding a 100% true female?
Just how would you know it was 100% female and did not carry the intersex gene at all?

 

[DocLeaf]

The newer generation of feminized plants (CS) can be used for breeding...

Critical (fem) clone seeded to W.Widow x Free Tibet (reg) male

.. this was the offspring , Painted Lady

 

[Unclepeter]

lol...let me ask you just how you would go about finding a 100% true female?
Just how would you know it was 100% female and did not carry the intersex gene at all?

theres the question... often IMO people seem to attribute a sterility as proof its "true" I don't buy it....

 

[JWP]

Its strain dependant, which strain did they use for this assessment? If they used a thai then the results would have been close to 100% intersex. Then you have to ask did they use 100 1000 or 10000 for the test. I seriously doubt hundreds of stains were used and thousands of plants from each. Untill this is done though we will have to work with guesstimates. This is why i give a general percentage range.

My point is smack bang on and if i'm having this hard a time convincing you, someone with some breeding knowledge how am i going to go with the millions arround the world.

By the time anyone realizes this is a problem it will be too late. The damage will be done and the damage is irreversible.

To find the true sex plants you would test with your prefered method or methods of reversal. If the plant doesnt reverse then bingo.

 

[Unclepeter]

The correct way to make female seeds would be to use one true female and another heterozygous sex female to reverse and pollinate.

run that by me please... I understand with a heterozygous plant you can get it into a homozygous state via doubling.. and then crossing to the target put I'm not sure as to how you have described it here...

so you'd have the recurrent or "true" plant say an elite clone.. are you saying the "true" plant is homozygous? for whatever trait or traits.. why would you then cross it to a heterozygous plant... or are you implying you reverse the heterozygous plant, self it and then use the progeny on the chosen recurrent ? rather than take the reversed pollen and apply it to the recurrent?

hope that makes sense?

Kopite

 

[Unclepeter]

To find the true sex plants you would test with your prefered method or methods of reversal. If the plant doesnt reverse then bingo.

I don't go with that, in most cases people can get plants to reverse, I personally am yet to find those that don't! but I would love to know the plants people have found that don't.

Kopite

 

[JWP]

run that by me please... I understand with a heterozygous plant you can get it into a homozygous state via doubling.. and then crossing to the target put I'm not sure as to how you have described it here...

so you'd have the recurrent or "true" plant say an elite clone.. are you saying the "true" plant is homozygous? for whatever trait or traits.. why would you then cross it to a heterozygous plant... or are you implying you reverse the heterozygous plant, self it and then use the progeny on the chosen recurrent ? rather than take the reversed pollen and apply it to the recurrent?

hope that makes sense?

Kopite

1. Yes you take the (heterozygous,Aa) female (intersex) plant and reverse it. Then use it to pollinate the (homozygous,AA) (true sex) female plant. Your seeds are 100% female.

If you use the (heterozygous,Aa) female (intersex) plant and reverse it.
2. Then use it to pollinate (itself,Aa) or
3. A (homozygous,aa) (intersex) female plant then..

1. Aa x AA = AA (Proper Female seeds)
2. Aa x Aa = Aa AA aa aA (Hack hermi Female seeds)
3. Aa x aa = aa (Hack hermi Female seeds)

This is where people are having a lot of problems..

 

[Unclepeter]

Yes you take the heterozygous female (intersex) plant and reverse it. Then use it to pollinate the homozygous (true sex) plant. Your seeds are 100% female.

If you use the heterozygous plant and reverse it. Then use it to pollinate itself or a homozygous intersex plant then...

This is where people are having a lot of problems..

see this is were it gets Nevil like, i'm asuming you believe because a plant will reverse it is intersex? the Xm thing...

 

[Unclepeter]

1. Yes you take the heterozygous female (intersex) plant and reverse it. Then use it to pollinate the homozygous (true sex) plant. Your seeds are 100% female.

If you use the heterozygous plant and reverse it.
2. Then use it to pollinate itself or
3. A homozygous intersex plant then..

1. Aa x AA = AA (Proper Female seeds)
2. Aa x As = Aa (Hack hermi Female seeds)
3. Aa x aa = Aa (Hack hermi Female seeds)

This is where people are having a lot of problems..

TBH I'm having problems following that!

nice edit to this

1. Yes you take the heterozygous female (intersex) plant and reverse it. Then use it to pollinate the homozygous (true sex) plant. Your seeds are 100% female.

If you use the heterozygous plant and reverse it.
2. Then use it to pollinate itself or
3. A homozygous intersex plant then..

1. Aa x AA = AA (Proper Female seeds)
2. Aa x Aa = Aa (Hack hermi Female seeds)
3. Aa x aa = Aa AA aA aa (Hack hermi Female seeds)

This is where people are having a lot of problems..

but 1. AaxAA can give aA or AA
2. aa, Aa or AA
3. Aa or aa

 

[JWP]

TBH I'm having problems following that!

I changed it. Does that help?

Sry i dont mean to confuse you

but 1. AaxAA can give aA or AA
2. aa, Aa or AA
3. Aa or aa

AA is dominant on both alleles. It will never be aA aa Aa
aa is dominant on both alleles. It also will be always aa

Its just meant to be a mendel STYLE example where aa and AA mean different things in 1 & 3. In 1 AA means dominant. In 3 aa means dominant.

Shit i should scrap it and start again lol

Do you get that homozygous is represented by AA in 1.
But in homozygous represented by aa in 3.

Because im giving examples of two different traits in the 1 example.

see this is were it gets Nevil like, i'm asuming you believe because a plant will reverse it is intersex? the Xm thing...

I'm new to this game so i'm not sure what you are talking about. But yes no amount hormones will change the plants sex if the plants genes wont allow it.

 

[Unclepeter]

I'm new to this game so i'm not sure what you are talking about. But yes no amount hormones will change the plants sex if the plants genes wont allow it.

could you give me an example of such a plant thx.

 

[Baba Ku]

If a breeder finds a female that will not hermie with light periud stresses, and then gives it a good bit of other stresses such as extreme temps, root zone cloister, nutrient overload/deprivation, and maybe some heavy wind...they have found a specimen that may fit as a good breeder for them...IF it also fits the other criteria the breeder has set.
Now, wouldn't you agree that he has gone through a decent amount of checking to see if the plant holds the intersex gene in dominance or not? Sure he has.

BUT...does this mean that it was a 100% female? The ultimate would be to take things further and use some known science to chemically block ethylene receptors in the plant by introducing silver ions, which is known to trigger even the most latent intersex expression. How many breeders do this?

The plant the breeder first stressed heavily and found it to be suitable, would be considered true breeding for the intersex trait, and not necessarily a 100% female.
And that is what we look for when selecting for suitable breeders...true breeding homozygous individuals. This goes for both feminizing and m/f breeding schemes.

Assume I have found two separate females that are stressed tested properly and found them to be intersex free, however they both will hermie using STS or CS. I can breed one to the other and feel very confident that I am using two properly selected individuals that I know are both true breeding for inersex gene.
Now you on the other hand have a cut of one of my females, and you select a male to use..because you don't want to harm the cannabis world or sumsuch...
Just how do you asses the breeding prowess of that male? Do you think he may pass on the trait, or not? How do you know? Are there such things as true males? You tell me.

Now, let me also throw this at you...
Assume you found what you consider to be a perfect female or "100% female"...and you breed it to a male that you know throws good progeny, hell let's just assume that the male is a true male (if there is such a thing you tell me). Will the seeds from that mating not hold any intersex at all? Do you think that each and every seed from that population will not be able to be stressed into expressing hermie?

You know, you have lots to learn...I have lots to learn...we ALL have lot to learn. But one thing I am fairly confident on, JWP...if you have your way it really WILL harm the cannabis world. In fact if it weren't for the intersex gene, cannabis would be but a blip on the screen and would be just another boring plant. This I am 100% confident in.
It is part of her magic...don't ever think otherwise.

 

[TopShelf]

I can honestly say that I have never made seeds from a mother known to come from female seeds (not the company, or otherwise). Always from regular seeds or cuts from regular seed mothers. But I do see you guys argument on this. So like what was said before, no problem with female seeds, just don't use them for breeding..

 

[Baba Ku]

So like what was said before, no problem with female seeds, just don't use them for breeding..

The seeds do no have any idea if their parents were two females or a male and a female. There is absolutely nothing different from using seeds from a M/F breeding that there is using seeds from a F/F breeding, other than the seeds from the F/F will only produce potential mothers and no males. Nothing else.

Plants that come from fem seeds are just as suitable for breeding material as plants that come from standard breeding.

 

[JWP]

Unclepeter, i'm yet to find one. I havent even looked.

Baba Ku, yes i agree the plant would have to pass every test. stress & hormone tests. And any other test we can come up with.
Another way would be to breed the suspected true male and female and stress test the progeny. If none hermied we could be reasonably sure one of the parents were homozygous true sex.

How can you think having a line of true male & female plant with NO intersex plants trowing nannas is more dangerous than what we currently have? Some female seeds where ALL the plants are intersex dominant throwing nannas all over the place and some other female seeds throwing nannas some of the time.

How can you even compare the two?

The seeds do no have any idea if their parents were two females or a male and a female. There is absolutely nothing different from using seeds from a M/F breeding that there is using seeds from a F/F breeding, other than the seeds from the F/F will only produce potential mothers and no males. Nothing else.

Plants that come from fem seeds are just as suitable for breeding material as plants that come from standard breeding.

100% not true. When an intersex gene is expressed some thing is changed in the gene. This is undoubtedly passed on. The seed does know this..

+ not all female seeds are created equally. the vast majority of female seeds are created in the ways which i have previously demonstrated and are far from suitable for breeding

 

[Baba Ku]

I'm sorry JWP...but you will need to study up a good bit to be able to continue further with this in an intelligent manner. Nothing is changed in the genetic map when a plant is forced to produce pollen. It happens just the way I told you it does.
Now, if you really do research the issue to find some ammo...you will ultimately find out why your ideas are skewed. And you will also find that you are shooting blanks now, friend.

Hey, I am always open to see something that backs up your assertion. Lay it on me.

 

[JWP]

I'm sorry JWP...but you will need to study up a good bit to be able to continue further with this in an intelligent manner. Nothing is changed in the genetic map when a plant is forced to produce pollen. It happens just the way I told you it does.
Now, if you really do research the issue to find some ammo...you will ultimately find out why your ideas are skewed. And you will also find that you are shooting blanks now, friend.

Hey, I am always open to see something that backs up your assertion. Lay it on me.

A true female plant without intersex genes cannot produce viable pollen with CS or STS.

An intersex female plant that does produce pollen with CS or STS does have a trigger in the genes activated. It is no longer female, it is intersex. It does not go back to being an unexpressed intersex female once you stop the treatment of CS or STS now does it??? This is absolute proof something is changed is the genes!

Please explain to me where my ideas are skewed and what exactly i need to study?

The intersex plant forced to reverse is never a female to start with.. You are still breeding an intersex plant genes changed or not. The frequency of intersex plants seen in the progeny does increase!

If you did this till the end of time at the end of time all plants would be intersex!

 

[Unclepeter]

A true female plant without intersex genes cannot produce viable pollen with CS or STS.

An intersex female plant that does produce pollen with CS or STS does have a trigger in the genes activated. It is no longer female, it is intersex.

but you and I are yet to find them ?

 

[DocLeaf]

A true female plant without intersex genes cannot produce viable pollen with CS or STS.

Like the UK Cheese clone.