Rockdust? When to apply?

[statusquo]

Rock Phosphate contains heavy metals like Polonium which is radioactive. These can be uptaken by the plants root system and stored in the tissues of the plant.

Then when its smoked you inhale the traces of heavy metals which get in your lungs and start to radiate you from the inside.

Cancer is a fungus and like many other fungus it gets its energy from radiation.

The cancer grows as it feeds off that radioactivity coming from the small particles of polonium that are in your lungs from fertilization with Rock Dust containing heavy metals.

Tobacco companies fertilize with this stuff and its one of the main factors attributed to lung cancer.

Definitely going to have to insist on some sources here lol.

 

[C21H30O2]

Haven't looked too much at rock dust stuff and not much research information available in those links. Interesting though is the dude was talking about initial applications of 20 tons per acre or 5 tons with very fine material...LOL. He still says 1/4 lb/sq ft for maintenance which is 5 tons per acre. Holy crap that's a lot of material and better results with something like 4 gallons of Sea Crop per acre per year and that's about 7 lbs dried equivalent...per acre...and yield increases of up to 100%, better flavor, shelf life, plant health, increased microflora activity, blah blah. 4 gallons to match 20 tons. Also university level studies on Sea Crop. I saw the guy had a gallon of Ocean Grown seawater concentrate and Sea Crop works so much better they're not even close.

With remineralization like they're talking about you're looking for trace minerals. Major minerals, like calcium/potassium/magnesium/etc. are better handled by materials other than rock dust such as lime, gypsum, greensand, K-Mag, etc.

A friend is really into the seawater concentrate stuff and says that 2 good sources are TerraGenics and Ambrosia Technologies. That dude in the video was talking about using different materials for balance and nothing more balanced that a 4 billion year old soup, the ocean, with minerals in ionic form (pretty much monatomic) that are so absorbable you can even get away with a few foliar applications of a 1% dilution...lol.

Not saying rock dust doesn't provide benefits but much better ways to skin a cat. If you wanna go with rock dust I recommend you add some Biozome archae microbe product as archae are the best class to deal with breaking down rock dust. Fungi are really good but archae are better. If you use Biozome along with rock dust I'm pretty sure you'll get better results than rock dust alone.

how can u say sea crop
produce better results when you haven't used it? why do you think civilizations developed around rivers... rock dust also known as sediment washed down from the mountains and made the land fertile (nile river, egypt). Its the same thing that occurs in the oceans. areas with a lot of storms move the water pulling volcanic minerals from the sea floor providing food for life. starts with microbes, then perhaps arthropods, fish, and then larger mammals like dolphins and whales.

Another point is that rock dust is cheap if not free. You can get it for free if you do some hunting. Ideal rock dust is a mix of rock types so to produce a broad mix of minerals.

I second your comment on bizome though, great product. It can even be used to clean up spilled oil.

All that being said, compost, rock dust, biochar and compost teas will make for amazing plants... any kind of plant lol.

by adding rock dust we are supporting the very foundation of the food web in our soils.

 

[Mountain]

As for the microbiological factor, it physically acts as a base for bacteria and fungi to adhere and is often the secret ingredient in compost teas.

Never heard the 'secret ingredient' thing...lol. I've heard peeps swear by some micronized soft rock phosphate in teas for fungi enhancement. The key is micronization. Does Microbeman use rock dust in his teas? If I was gonna use it I'd be inclined to throw something like basalt dust in a bucket of water, agitate, let settle a few minutes then only use the liquid and what's suspended.

sea-90 there the og sea salt fert(might not be og but the g ist).lolpeace

Sea-90 sucks...all that sodium chloride...yummy.

but sproket said "Rock dust" , which is an industrial mining waste product used in commericial industrial and civil enginerring operations.

Yeah industry is constantly looking for ways to make more money. Even though some rock dusts may be 'waste' products does not mean they are not beneficial for use in ag.

Took a quick look at basalt dust and...

Temperatures were lower in the mineral fine-treated manure mixture initially. After turning the piles at six weeks, temperatures tended to be higher in the mineral fine amended mixture. Overall, temperatures were not significantly different suggesting that mineral fines amendment does not significantly increase temperature and activity in composting mixtures.

Also in general...

This supports my theory that the role of remineralization is not as much on the direct nutritional value of the minerals, but the role they play in overall soil quality, including the protection of soil carbon and the inherent improvement of soil functioning.

 

[C21H30O2]

manure composting yuckk!!! also if the rock dust isnt an established brand (glacial rock dust, azomite) its effects cant be substantiated. If you hunt down your own rock dust make sure to do a pot test before using it on you soil. It is also best when added to thermal compost.

 

[Mountain]

how can u say sea crop
produce better results when you haven't used it?

Please find where I posted that I haven't used it either Sea Crop or rock dust...thx. I said I hadn't looked into it too much. For me looking into something a lot would be like the 8" stack of research I pulled off the net for humic/fulvic acids and leonardite/lignite and the time over 6 months I spent on that one.

That aside fortunately I'm associated with peeps in general ag that are highly experienced with some of this stuff on a very large scale. Know of one guy who manages everything from hard core organic to straight up conventional based on soil and tissue analysis and the farmer's preference. He uses Azomite, carbonatite (rock dust) and tons of it, Sea Crop, greensand, etc. None is really a replacement for the other. He only uses what his testing tells him the soil and particular crop needs...and he doesn't use any biochar...lol. He uses something else where he can treat 500 acres at a shot through drip lines. Different approaches to achieve same thing...from what I can decipher.

I guess for clarification it comes down to what you wanna achieve and why you're using something.

 

[C21H30O2]

Please find where I posted that I haven't used it either Sea Crop or rock dust...thx. I said I hadn't looked into it too much. For me looking into something a lot would be like the 8" stack of research I pulled off the net for humic/fulvic acids and leonardite/lignite and the time over 6 months I spent on that one.

That aside fortunately I'm associated with peeps in general ag that are highly experienced with some of this stuff on a very large scale. Know of one guy who manages everything from hard core organic to straight up conventional based on soil and tissue analysis and the farmer's preference. He uses Azomite, carbonatite (rock dust) and tons of it, Sea Crop, greensand, etc. None is really a replacement for the other. He only uses what his testing tells him the soil and particular crop needs...and he doesn't use any biochar...lol. He uses something else where he can treat 500 acres at a shot through drip lines. Different approaches to achieve same thing...from what I can decipher.

I guess for clarification it comes down to what you wanna achieve and why you're using something.

not to dismiss your research but research isn't experience. that being said i think we are both on a similar page growing wise, so i dont want to argue with a comrade in soil lol. you are absolutely right that rock dust alone does not grow good plants and other things like greensand, and sea crop are useful. Biochar is great as a way of keeping your soil fertile for a long period of time. Biochar, compost, and rock dust = microbial explosion.

 

[Mountain]

I don't see that we're arguing. Personal experience is great but then most people aren't scientists and without some type of analytical method like a microscope, sap testing, soil analysis, etc. what is it you're really seeing? Anecdotal info can be cool though. You're right though research isn't experience but life is too short to continually reinvent the wheel and rediscover what others already have so I look at a lot of what others have already condensed. I rely on others experience also.

Anyway...companies like Seer selling basalt rock dust are a bit of a joke to me. The only thing they really have going is that one little garden using their product. Very weak and they rely on general remineralization stuff without having done any formal studies themselves...so far. Not saying their product does not work well. Yeah there's research on basalt powder, like the manure info I posted from a published study, but nothing really on their material. Lots of vague stuff out there people perpetuate that's not based on solid science that companies use to make a buck.

 

[SativaHybrid]

Well I'm all for everyone having their own opinion but some people seem to be either knowingly or unknowingly making dubious claims. Many colleges have conducted research on the effects of remineralization and rock dusts. One of the more concise is a large study conducted by MSU showing significant improvements from as little as one rock dust application in as little as 3 months. This study covers everything from trees to vegetables. I believe there is enough scientific and analytical evidence to say that in the right soil environment rock dusts prove beneficial.

Also someone mentioned that only agricultural products should be used, this is a complete fallacy perpetuated by many Ag. Companies. While you should research your sources of anything because some gravel comp. either use unusable raw material or treat the rock with dangerous chemicals. However locally "crusher dust" as the gravel comp. call it is primarily from glacial deposits with the odd one being from river rock both sources an excellent source of trace minerals. Also they are WAY cheaper than Ag. marketed products. I'll agree that using alternative sources can mean that you are less informed about Ag. benefits but a little deeper research should answer any questions.

Lastly as for the claim that rock dusts contain high concentrations of cancer causing elements, the pseudo science used is questionable at best. The very elements listed are found widely in many soils and I have found no evidence of increased cancer rates from any of the produce grown in these soils. All of the areas thought to
have allowed mankind to begin agriculture are high in these elements. Look at all of the most fertile soils both today and in the past and you will see a source of rock dusts. Be it glacial, volcanic, erosion, etc.

Always ask everything.

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

I hope we arent arguing. Surely we can have discussion and express different opinions without questioning the intentions or credibility of those that disagree. I dont think anyone here is lying just to make their point. I suspect that every opinion posted here is based upon something the poster has read or heard..... and from my perspective, much of it was wrong!!

Quick lime, hydrated lime and rock dust are much much more caustic than dolomitic limestone. They arent the same by any measure, however, after spending a few minutes reading yesterday, i can see why there would be such varied opinions on this topic.

I'm an avid gardener and I belong to the local gardening club! My fellow, proud and avid gardeners would be aghast at the suggestion of using "rock dust" in their gardens and the shock waves would cause the older ladies to choke on their coffee cake!! Professional gardening associations, the American Rose society and many long time gardening authorities such as Barbara Damrosch, warn that calcitic lime is far too caustic and should never be used on precious garden cultivar varieties,(hybrid cannabis is a garden cultivar, they dont exist in nature).

Bottom line: theres plenty of basis for both the pro and con beliefs expressed in this thread . I read one article after another that claimed the stuff is safe and works good . I even read numerous articles that said it was ok to fertilize at the same time lime is applied, even though every single ag lime manufacturer warns against it. I'll be sticking with long standing, proven garden practices as recommended by master gardeners and i would recommend to anyone to use the finest, proven products available on their most prized plants.
"lets try this stuff" will never enter my garden.

No hard feelings toward anyone with a different view!!!!

 

[ganjasuiteseat]

wheres the proof.is that what sea crop said.thanks peace

 

[Mountain]

Lastly as for the claim that rock dusts contain high concentrations of cancer causing elements, the pseudo science used is questionable at best. The very elements listed are found widely in many soils and I have found no evidence of increased cancer rates from any of the produce grown in these soils.

Well rock phosphates are notorious for containing radioactive elements. Some are even used as a source of uranium. I don't consider soft rock phosphate a rock dust like we're talking about though. If you look at settling ponds, where soft rock phosphate comes from, there is a much higher concentration of radio nucleotides (think that's proper). Think someone already mentioned in this thread that cancer rates from tobacco can be attributed to the phoshphate fertilizers used. Like 1.5 packs a day ='s 300 chest xrays a year. Not all phosphate sources are the same though.

In general things like glacial rock dust, basalt source, etc. are safe and don't have the same issue.

Yeah I'm somewhat familiar with the MSU stuff.

wheres the proof.is that what sea crop said.thanks peace

I requested a copy of a study done at Louisiana State University back in 2008 and they used it as a root dip only, not even a general soil application, at a 2% dilution rate on transplant plugs and achieved yield enhancements of 25-71% on various crops. A study done in Morocco showed yield enhancements, promotion of earlier fruiting, larger leaf size, etc. with only 1 foliar application at a 1% dilution rate. Pretty amazing. The stuff is almost pure trace elements and unlike rock dust concentration of things like potassium, calcium, silicon, phosphorous, etc. are extremely minimal.

Not saying rock dust treatments don't work and aren't beneficial. Heck I've used a bit of both glacial rock dust and Azomite in my soil program...lol...and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to peeps. They're decent sources for things like silica, potassium, calcium, etc. I feel they helps round things out and cover all the bases. It's not just about the element/mineral content but also about enhancing soil structure. With growing quality plants it's all about the inputs.

 

[SativaHybrid]

Sorry if it felt as if i was being hostile towards the opposing view this was not my intent. I have read many contradictory viewpoints about the benefits and risks of "rock dusts" and as such completley understand the dissenting viewpoint. I just want to inform those who may not have researched deeply into the matter that many if not all of the soils that are used for major crop production have noticeable levels of radioactive elements present. As a matter of fact most of the fertile land that grows the majority of produce is higher in said elements.

That being said i will not discredit the need for further research into the effects of these elements. However as you mentioned mountain i in no way think that the "rock phosphates" in question can be compared to "rock dusts" The mining of "rock phosphates" from ore obviously entails a different makeup than the processing of river rock, volcanic rock, or old glacial moraines. The very nature of "rock phosphates" seeping into the ground and collecting in bands points out the main difference. Where "rock dusts" ground from varied sources have varied contents "rock phosphates" tend to have much less varied contents and a much higher potential to have a higher radionuclide content. Thus when "rock phosphates" are mined the concentrations of these elements makes up a far greater percentage of the material. Unless someone can correct me not many studies suggest high risks from using even these "rock phosphates". Much of the alarm comes from the product that tobacco companies use which is known as "super rock phosphates" which are treated to allow for much quicker absorption thus allowing the plants and water to be contaminated with these elements.

I don't want to keep ranting or get into too much scientific detail so the best way i can sum up my viewpoint is this. The real culprit in question is radium which is found in high concentrations in some soils and rocks. As far as i know elevated levels of radium are not reported to be any more prevalent in "rock dust" sources than in the average soil and rocks found worldwide. However they are far more prevalent in many "rock phosphates" because many of the current sources for "rock phosphates" are from ore that is high in radium. This radium breaks down into radon gas that settles on the leaves of plants in the form of Lead-210 and polonium-210. Then when smoked "BOOM" lung issues. Also some scientists suggest that plants directly uptake some polonium-210 thru the roots store it in the plant material and release it upon combustion. Either way it apperars that phosphates can indeed contain these elements and this seems especially true of "super phosphates".

Also to those growing indoor many indoor environments contain Radon gas amounts far greater than those seen outdoors and as such most studies suggest a much larger risk from the exposure to radon gas of indoor plants than the risk from soil based phosphate applications. With the possible exception of "super phosphates".

Basically everything causes problems to some extent so educate yourself and limit your exposure to the highest risk factors.

 

[Mountain]

Also to those growing indoor many indoor environments contain Radon gas amounts far greater than those seen outdoors and as such most studies suggest a much larger risk from the exposure to radon gas of indoor plants than the risk from soil based phosphate applications. With the possible exception of "super phosphates".

Basically everything causes problems to some extent so educate yourself and limit your exposure to the highest risk factors.

Yeah I used to grow in a basement with most of the area, not in the area I would work though, was dirt and would think of radon now and then but never tested for it. Double whammy having the dusty floor if radon was there. My understanding is areas in Florida have issues with radon gas in homes...where there's a lot of phosphate.

I had to laugh at the bolded part...lol! Not too far off really.

Interesting info...thx.

Going back to the soil fertility thing I remember doing some reading and they tested native areas with super fertile soil and had some interesting characteristics. Definitely high energy and for some reason I was thinking it was related to Rare Earth Elements. The Chinese are having some problems with using too much lanthanum chloride. Vaguely remember soil toxicity either heavy metals or radioactivity...been awhile. REE's are fascinating and part of the whole trace element thing. Supposedly Azomite has a total of 644 ppm's of REE's and they are definitely not in all deposits.

Getting to talk to someone in professional ag in a few weeks and lots of questions about rock dust for them.

 

[Campfire]

The best time to apply rock-dust is when your rock isn't dusty anymore. When I dust mine, I like basalt dust, volcanic clay dust, and dolomitic lime. Talk about creating oak-tough stems and branches, wow. Stormproof. Adzsum-Plus is a good one, for the first two in a combined form, google it.

 

[ganjasuiteseat]

glacial is para magnetic,there was a thread once who had a ?"eletric/magnetic"?soil mix called for shale,rock dusts.granet,green sand and i think char.but if the mix did not call for char that is the missing ingredientfuck whats the name?!!!!!!!!!!and kos which sea salt you think is best?thanks peace

 

[Mountain]

!and kos which sea salt you think is best?

I don't like any sea salt but if you wanna use something like that go with Sea-90 (the cheapest) or Celtic. You can get Celtic in any health food store for like $4/lb. I was talking about processed seawater like Sea Crop or Ocean Solution and OS is inferior IMO.