Under Current vs. Ebb & Flow

[Vespatian]

I am currently running E&F buckets and I am very pleased with this system. It's easy to set up, operate, and maintain, and the results we are getting from it are beyond our expectations.

As a legal cultivation collective, we operate under a strict plant count limitation. Consequently, it is in our interest to maximize yield with a fixed number of plants, and one way to accomplish this is to "fill each light canopy" with the fewest possible plants, which in turn allows you to run more lights. Currently we run 9 buckets under every hood, which I believe is pretty standard operating procedure.

Which brings me to this thread here at IC showcasing the Under Current system:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=119204&page=91

This fella achieved some impressive results. Specifically, it appears as if his 6-plants-per-light run produced a yield comparable to a 9-plant-per-light E&F cycle. Furthermore, after looking into this Under Current product, it looks as if they also make systems designed for FOUR plants per light.

A retail kit that could fully fill a light canopy with only 4 plants within a 12 week cycle would be a significant achievement, in my opinion.

The owner of the hydro shop where I live freely admits to having reservations about any DWC or RDWC system. He claims the inherent pythium risk outweighs any potential benefit. He also claims that "there is no reason why" E&F plants cannot be grown as big and as fast as those in DWC. Although I have doubts about his beliefs, I will soon find out if they are accurate as we intend to dedicate one hood to a mere 4 buckets in our next run.

My question to this fine community is simply: Does anyone know how few E&F buckets can fill a 4x4, 1kw canopy in a 12 week cycle and, regarding the Under Current product, can a mere 4 plants possibly fill the canopy?

Thank you for reading.

 

[Seed Buyer]

If I had the legal luxury you do. I would start be scrogging one plant per 1000 watter. Gonna be a slow process, there would be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. To do this I would imagine you would need to run the ebb & grow w/ 5 gal buckets rather than the 2 gal they come with!

 

[Vespatian]

We do indeed scrog, with a double trellis.

 

[Seed Buyer]

I would also recommend you get a bottle of Dutch Master "Liquid Light" and "Penetrator". It will really speed op the growth process.

 

[sensiskrap]

Subscribed.
Would love to see 4-plants per light work out as im also on the restricted plant #'s.

here's a rough and quick sketch-up of my current plan.

the reflectors are actually a little bigger than that.
but thats a 12'x4' table-12 plants in 5-gallon buckets, and planned 3x 1,000w

 

[DarkLance]

i am currently trying to save the same problem as well. subscribed

as an aside, are you aware that Second District Court of Appeal in L.A. has invalidated the SB 420 plant numbers?

The case is currently on the CA State Supreme Court.
Case # S164830 People of the State of California v. Patrick K. Kelly

 

[FreezerBoy]

If you go DWC I'd strongly suggest you avoid any additives beyond pH up or down. At least your first couple of runs. The vast majority of crappy roots come from adding root crapifiers to the rez. It's commonly the stuff people use to prevent the problem that causes it to begin with.

NOT a recommendation (I was just curious to see for myself) but, I'm running a DWC with water temps in the low 80s without a problem. The only difference I can see between my grow and those in the low 70s covered in slime is, I didn't add any Liquid Crap©®™ just GH FloraMicro-FloraBloom and pH down.

 

[Vespatian]

Sensiskrap - Yes that is the basic layout, but we'll be running standard 2.5 gal E&F buckets on the floor. Also as mentioned above, I also scrog with a double trellis.

DarkLance - I'm aware of that, yes. However, the plant limit in our county is quite generous and I have no intention of exceeding it.

FreezerBoy - You'r point is in line with what I have heard elsewhere, and worth repeating. If and when we ever run DWC / RDWC the Piranha and Hygrozyme stay in the can.

I would still LOVE to hear from someone who has used the Under Current 4-plants-per-light kit, or from anyone who has run 6 E&F buckets or less under a 1kw hood.

Anyone?

 

[Haps]

If you use mature clones or seedlings, topped a couple times, you can easily do 4 with a K, you just need a long veg cycle. Also a week or two in veg under the K kicks it up too.
H

 

[Vespatian]

Haps - Thanks, but the idea is to increase yield without increasing cycle durations. We already run between 3 and 4 weeks in veg, and don't really want to increase that. We also top often in veg.

 

[FML]

I wish we had your legal protections..but in a gray zone....you can for sure do it with six...must you high quality seeds known for short growth cycle..with practice and right nurts can get to four..that is long term goal for us as well.

Happy Growing........BIG NUTS

 

[bugler]

Many folks I've seen truly rocking under currents or similar rdwc systems are doing more like 1 plant per 2 or even 3 lights vertical. Way more folks doing that style on the farmer than here, but heath's tree thread here has a lot of the general idea. If you're limited by plant count, 2-4 pound plants surely seem like a great way to go.

Disclosure, I have no experience, just do a lot of research, if I had a plant count limited legal grow, I'm certain it would be UC or RDWC with 1k vertical lights surrounding the plants.

BTW, I've been amazed with the short amount of veg time I've seen people use and still get huge trees when they combine all that light with a kick ass rdwc system, so I'd thoroughly look into that before dismissing it, it sounds like you're already doing enough vegging time for trees.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

I like this system....

they went from this...

to this....in 20 days

here some roots

However i do not dislike ebb and flo but on growth rate nothing compares....

O and this is four plants per light... -=P

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

Many folks I've seen truly rocking under currents or similar rdwc systems are doing more like 1 plant per 2 or even 3 lights vertical. Way more folks doing that style on the farmer than here, but heath's tree thread here has a lot of the general idea. If you're limited by plant count, 2-4 pound plants surely seem like a great way to go.

Disclosure, I have no experience, just do a lot of research, if I had a plant count limited legal grow, I'm certain it would be UC or RDWC with 1k vertical lights surrounding the plants.

BTW, I've been amazed with the short amount of veg time I've seen people use and still get huge trees when they combine all that light with a kick ass rdwc system, so I'd thoroughly look into that before dismissing it, it sounds like you're already doing enough vegging time for trees.

Heath is where the stole the MPB bucket idea form.... or what every they call it... Truly a legend and THEE guy to copy or emulate.... This will be were i will be in next 2 years but you need some good capital and know what your doing in rdwc to even attempt this system.... expensive and can go wrong fast but under the right care is BY FAR the BEST sytem to grow weed in hands down.,..

 

[highonmt]

Heath is where the stole the MPB bucket idea form.... or what every they call it... Truly a legend and THEE guy to copy or emulate.... This will be were i will be in next 2 years but you need some good capital and know what your doing in rdwc to even attempt this system.... expensive and can go wrong fast but under the right care is BY FAR the BEST sytem to grow weed in hands down.,..

Yep heath is THE man and he is very nice, helpful and willing to give good advice... just ask Doubleds. It does seems to be the case that heaths high flow, top fed, dwc is the fastest system going. I have never seen a plant grow as fast as the ones I grew in Heaths setup. That said for a warehouse I picked the ebb and flow. The risk of pythium and the water volume were what sold us. We have to grow large plants so 5gal buckets are minimum. In ebb and flow buckets the bucket water volume is only about half that in DWC. The added benefit is you can flood several different rooms in sequence from one rez.
HM

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

Yep heath is THE man and he is very nice, helpful and willing to give good advice... just ask Doubleds. It does seems to be the case that heaths high flow, top fed, dwc is the fastest system going. I have never seen a plant grow as fast as the ones I grew in Heaths setup. That said for a warehouse I picked the ebb and flow. The risk of pythium and the water volume were what sold us. We have to grow large plants so 5gal buckets are minimum. In ebb and flow buckets the bucket water volume is only about half that in DWC. The added benefit is you can flood several different rooms in sequence from one rez.
HM

very good points its kinda just what you really are going for both have there pros and cons really depends on what your looking for....

 

[greenwithenvy]

You could try bending them over when the get about a foot tall. This turns the auxins to the lower branches and next thing you know you have huge bushes with lots of tops. I can only run 12 plants so I veg for two months and flower for the same. It all works out. Two separate rooms. 2 month perpetual grow.

 

[samba]

If you go DWC I'd strongly suggest you avoid any additives beyond pH up or down. At least your first couple of runs. The vast majority of crappy roots come from adding root crapifiers to the rez. It's commonly the stuff people use to prevent the problem that causes it to begin with.

NOT a recommendation (I was just curious to see for myself) but, I'm running a DWC with water temps in the low 80s without a problem. The only difference I can see between my grow and those in the low 70s covered in slime is, I didn't add any Liquid Crap©®™ just GH FloraMicro-FloraBloom and pH down.

I would absolutely agree! Only problems I had with roots happened when I tested/added some additives. Just stick to nutes and pH+/-

 

[Tonka]

undercurrent with vertical bare bulbs has been the best for me with limited (six) plant numbers. I modified the system to accommodate my space and lights. I have no experience with ebb&flow.

 

[HOVAH2.0]

I always assumed more air means healthier plant, leads to healthier production, all factors should point to E&F.
but, i have to say DWC always smell better, look better... not sayin it was healthier.. its just something about the bubbling action, it gives the feeling of blood pumping, you can see the plant living when DWC is working right...... just my voodue science