for the experts, isomerization question.

[moresntoil]

Hey there,

I have looked everywhere and cannot find an answer to my question.

Being very buzy makes it always hard to find four hours to reflux solvent/acid for isomerization to take place.

So, would leaving the "mix" to sit at room temp for a couple days or more do the same as refluxing??? or is the high temp critical for isomerization to happen?

Thanks alot!! moresntoil

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hey there,

I have looked everywhere and cannot find an answer to my question.

Being very buzy makes it always hard to find four hours to reflux solvent/acid for isomerization to take place.

So, would leaving the "mix" to sit at room temp for a couple days or more do the same as refluxing??? or is the high temp critical for isomerization to happen?

Thanks alot!! moresntoil

Yup, time and temperature are interchangeable. Maybe a month or so...............

 

[G.O. Joe]

I think you need a more specific procedure.

The old general rule in organic chemistry is that each 10C doubles reaction rate, once you get to a temperature where there is any reaction at all.

Another rule is that you have to get it to work the way it's written before you start "improving" it. Assuming that it is possible for anyone to make the procedure work as written.

 

[moresntoil]

Gray- thanks friend. I do enjoy the refluxing, almost theropidic to sit and watch! Just hard to find the extra time to play. would the acid in spigetti sause isomerize thc if set in the freezer long enough? Years ago I made some "special" sauce after it sat in my freezer then in the frig for over a month I tried some, was devestating! I could not even drive or go to work the next day for that matter. could I have converted some of the thc due to the acid in the sauce? Or was it just some good sauce? thanks

Joe- thanks bro. I cant find a procedure to do a "soak" rather than a reflux, so I may just have to do a small trial run. Im not trying to improve, Im trying to create a soaking that will give the same or close to the same results Im getting with the refluxing, which as far as I can tell is working to isomerize, but then again Im no chemist.
thanks
I will never give up the refluxing, its fun! simple I know

 

[jump117]

The old general rule in organic chemistry is that each 10C doubles reaction rate,

Hey G.O. Joe, what is the rule for the pressure affects the rate of extraction? plz

 

[G.O. Joe]

You can't just plug in any acid and any solvent. The few examples in the chemistry literature that I have read are very specific, and excepting the BF3 procedure don't work very well. "Marijuana Chemistry" for example is not chemistry literature. Notice how Mike Starks gives no references for his bullshit on isomerization, other than some other guy also making shit up (and selling an isomerization machine)? That's not surprising considering that the entire "Appendix" is stolen verbatim without credit from MV Smith's 1981 book "Psychedelic Chemistry".

what is the rule for the pressure affects the rate of extraction?

I doubt pressure would have effects, beyond the operator being able to raise the temperature above the normal boiling point of the solvent and increase extraction that way. If this is on CO2, that is a unique case, where it only has slight solvent properties at and near supercritical.

 

[moresntoil]

You can't just plug in any acid and any solvent.

I was wondering about that, so what is the basics behind what solvent will or will not work, and why? and what about acid? just sulfuric?

how do I know that the isomerization has actually taken place?

after refluxing and the base(baking soda) is added if I do not see a reaction does that mean their was not enough acid added to begin with? should their be a reaction?

hope you dont mind all the questions, Thanks moresntoil

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

...I doubt pressure would have effects, beyond the operator being able to raise the temperature above the normal boiling point of the solvent and increase extraction that way. If this is on CO2, that is a unique case, where it only has slight solvent properties at and near supercritical.

My buddy has an ISO2, his product tastes like a$$, I mean dirty pipe resin. I assume the temp is too high and the machine is scorching the product. I tried to get him to lower the heat and increase the process time but he's content on burning his concentrate.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[G.O. Joe]

I'm not sure there are any basics, since different methods have given different products and yields. THC as we know it is isomerized by acids, a failing of the otherwise solid tosic acid method. On top of this, chemists with the ability to do these investigations have no desire to investigate and show stoner-able ways to convert CBD, widely available in hemp, to THC, if there are such methods. Results without analysis are unpublishable guesses with no factual basis regardless of what is said and who is saying.

Science is misinterpreted and misstated all the time, usually involving profit of some sort. The major media outlets deceive the public daily with "studies" that don't show what they say it does, and things which seem pretty clear are often impossible to reproduce by others. Most everything on this subject posted on the internet weed forums, taken from non-scientific people selling books, is not based on facts that I can find in the science literature; it's all presented as undeniable facts of course. You can't take an entirely truthful statement like "CBD is easily isomerized by acids to THC" and just make it mean what you want it to, without the context that is missing from that statement. It isn't difficult to change CBD with strong acids, but making the product natural THC just isn't that easy. The general chemical books and encyclopedias are SO UNBELIEVABLY FULL of statements without (and so far out of) context as to have not just no value, but negative value to the public and scientists alike.

Here is an example (Mechoulam and Gaoni, 1966) with anhydrous hydrogen chloride in anhydrous ethanol and an 18 hour reflux. It gives a mixture of uncertain toxicity, but avoids BF3. I guess the product is an improvement over CBD, but if you don't have pure CBD to begin with, there will be problems since CBD is hardly alone in reacting with acids.
http://ifile.it/had6unm
The same procedure with a 2 hour reflux (id. 1964) gave 2% yield.

 

[moresntoil]

On top of this, chemists with the ability to do these investigations have no desire to investigate and show stoner-able ways to convert CBD, widely available in hemp, to THC, if there are such methods. Results without analysis are unpublishable guesses with no factual basis regardless of what is said and who is saying.



I do appreciate your knowledge, and any info you give me or anyone else, but...

I do not label anyone "stoner" or "some one who smokes pot, but isnt a stoner"

Who exactly is a "stoner" to you?
I have more than one friend that is a chemist, one a Pharmcist in fact and guess what? he's a "stoner", but one of the nicest guys you could meet. Hardworking, career oriented, married to a wonderfull woman who is also a degreed, productive, working and positive part of our society. She may also be considered a "stoner" by some. just as a quick example.

Maybe Im taking this personal when it was not meant to be? but when Ive been labeled my hole life I tend to do that. In fact it has no bearing on what my ability is, or what degree I may or may not hold.

I do know people that may be "stoners" that I will not even deal with or associate with for alot of reasons, but none of them are because they smoke pot, its more the principles they follow in life.
with respect, moresntoil