Low PH high PPM
- Thread starter 41hope
- Start date
Overfeeding.
Nutes are acid, the higher the EC the lower the pH. Plants are drinking water faster than nutes leaving nutes behind in a smaller amount of water. As a result EC climbs and pH drops.
Nutes are acid, the higher the EC the lower the pH. Plants are drinking water faster than nutes leaving nutes behind in a smaller amount of water. As a result EC climbs and pH drops.
D
DHF
Awesome post FreezerBoy , not a better description of equal and opposite reactions that I`ve read in a while under normal circumstances........but.....
What kinda pot plant`s bein overfed at 550 ppms ?.......I mean 3rd week of Bloom ?...Stretch is barely over at those dates.....
Even as low as I always fed , at 3rd week flower I was at 700-750 ppms till week-10 days before finish , and I see MANY folks runnin juice till they see burnt tips and then backin off lil bit with well over 1000 ppm`s and some way higher......
As plants eat their nutes in a dialed setup , ppm`s drop and ph rises .....gradually.....If that ain`t happenin , then somethin`s rotten in Denmark as FB stated , but somethin outside dialage is causin it....
Rez/bottom container temps come to mind if not kept within certain parameters during the cold months especially.......
Anyways......Really need more info cuz 550 ppm`s is babyshit and 400 goin in is a joke at that point in a plant`s cycle IME........
I`m just sayin....Somethin`s not conducive to a dialed grow.....Gotta be room ambient/rez/bottom container temps causin lockouts on nutrient uptake since the plants won`t eat forcing PH to drop , but I`ve been wrong before...........but then......root rot causes those same symptoms.......
Good luck........DHF........
What kinda pot plant`s bein overfed at 550 ppms ?.......I mean 3rd week of Bloom ?...Stretch is barely over at those dates.....
Even as low as I always fed , at 3rd week flower I was at 700-750 ppms till week-10 days before finish , and I see MANY folks runnin juice till they see burnt tips and then backin off lil bit with well over 1000 ppm`s and some way higher......
As plants eat their nutes in a dialed setup , ppm`s drop and ph rises .....gradually.....If that ain`t happenin , then somethin`s rotten in Denmark as FB stated , but somethin outside dialage is causin it....
Rez/bottom container temps come to mind if not kept within certain parameters during the cold months especially.......
Anyways......Really need more info cuz 550 ppm`s is babyshit and 400 goin in is a joke at that point in a plant`s cycle IME........
I`m just sayin....Somethin`s not conducive to a dialed grow.....Gotta be room ambient/rez/bottom container temps causin lockouts on nutrient uptake since the plants won`t eat forcing PH to drop , but I`ve been wrong before...........but then......root rot causes those same symptoms.......
Good luck........DHF........
We need to remember that "PPM" is babel. Converted to EC, "PPM" could be anywhere from 1-2 mS/cm. Depending on the plant and other conditions, 1 mS/cm could easily be too rich while 2 mS/cm could be lethal.
We can run a garden with "PPM" or "TDS" because plants are illiterate, they don't care that "PPM" does not mean parts per million or that "TDS" does not mean totally dissolved solids. As long as we can track number movement up or down, we're golden.
EC up, pH down is the classic result of over feeding.
D
DHF
Unless it`s the classic result of root rot from lower container temps bein outta whack.......
PPM`s are based on either .5 or .7 conversion , regardless of total dissolved solids or electric conductivity , so tell me where 400 ppm`s at either conversion going in and coming out at 550 are outrageous on a nutrient regimen.......
PH drift`s up as nutrients are assimilated when everything`s dialed....although...No difference from your explanation of if nutrient`s are NOT assimilated due to lockouts and imbalances , ph goes down.........but......what`s the cause.........
Not rocket science...Environment...Just tryin ta understand where you`re comin from...
Peace....DHF........
PPM`s are based on either .5 or .7 conversion , regardless of total dissolved solids or electric conductivity , so tell me where 400 ppm`s at either conversion going in and coming out at 550 are outrageous on a nutrient regimen.......
PH drift`s up as nutrients are assimilated when everything`s dialed....although...No difference from your explanation of if nutrient`s are NOT assimilated due to lockouts and imbalances , ph goes down.........but......what`s the cause.........
Not rocket science...Environment...Just tryin ta understand where you`re comin from...
Peace....DHF........
There are close to a dozen different conversion factors. Hanna alone uses four: 500, 640, 650 and 700. Until "PPM" is reconverted back to EC, we have no idea what his nutrient solution strength is.
Lucas calls for 0-8-16. My plants say 0-3-6 is too strong. Some plants are hungrier than others.
When everything is "dialed in" EC and pH remain flat. However, flat readings over time can lead to imbalance and should be avoided. pH drifting up is the classic case of underfeeding.
Could it be something else? Sure, but the obvious (EC up, ph down = too rich, EC down pH up = too lean) is the best place to start. Like troubleshooting your computer. If it's not plugged in, it doesn't matter if it's turned on.
Lucas calls for 0-8-16. My plants say 0-3-6 is too strong. Some plants are hungrier than others.
When everything is "dialed in" EC and pH remain flat. However, flat readings over time can lead to imbalance and should be avoided. pH drifting up is the classic case of underfeeding.
Could it be something else? Sure, but the obvious (EC up, ph down = too rich, EC down pH up = too lean) is the best place to start. Like troubleshooting your computer. If it's not plugged in, it doesn't matter if it's turned on.
D
DHF
Sorry Bro.....Not tryin ta be right......was just tryin ta help the OP consider all options per cause of problem......We`ve got differing opinions of the same situation .....
PH and PPM`s remaining flat as you say , occurs with auto-topoff setup`s keeping said ph and ppm`s constant once dialed for nutrient uptake as the plants eat , or else imbalances/lockouts occur right ?..........Cmon now FB.....
No disrespect ..DHF...
....
PH and PPM`s remaining flat as you say , occurs with auto-topoff setup`s keeping said ph and ppm`s constant once dialed for nutrient uptake as the plants eat , or else imbalances/lockouts occur right ?..........Cmon now FB.....
No disrespect ..DHF...
....Stond_Face
Member
.....
PH and PPM`s remaining flat as you say , occurs with auto-topoff setup`s keeping said ph and ppm`s constant once dialed for nutrient uptake as the plants eat , or else imbalances/lockouts occur right ?..........Cmon now FB.....
No disrespect ..DHF...
I always look at posts from DHF and FreezerBoy with a ton of respect because I believe you guys already forgot more than I know about this hobby. But,...
I'm running DP Skunk #11 on a 2' x 4' E&F table. Coco perlite mix. I'm doing top-off with with MaxiBloom at 1 tsp./Gal. EC is running 1.6-1.7. pH only drifts within a 0.2 window.
This is the first grow where I see no real pH and EC drift. I figure the plants are using Nutes and H2O at the same ratio that I add them in. Been this way for 2 weeks now. No real problems.
I assume this "balanced condition" will come to pass any day. That's OK, pH drift helps prevent lockouts...
Thanks,
S_F
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D
DHF
Thank you Stond Face as you`ve more than proven my point in that topping off with lower concentrations as I originally stated keeps ph and ppm`s in stasis as FB was speaking of , but not as things are normally where plants eat their nutes and ppm`s drop while ph rises from the process without being topped off.................
Just tryin ta let folks know how plants do their thing for the best results...
Peace...DHF.........
Just tryin ta let folks know how plants do their thing for the best results...
Peace...DHF.....
....
Auto-topoff/adjustments are not required. Find and feed at the correct level and readings remain balanced for weeks at a time. However, flat readings over a month or so can lead to imbalance as no one pH reading allows equal absorption of all nutes.
While rot is possible, it's a gigantic leap at this point. If the OP is taking readings of EC and pH, he's more than likely familiar with the sight and smell of his res. To date, he's said nothing of foul smell, discoloration or snot.
D
DHF
Wow FB.......How can you possibly say ppm`s and ph stay at the same levels as the plants eat/drink , and use em........
I mean , by your own admission you say overfeeding causes ph to drop , so underfeeding causes ph to rise ?.........And then you state that ph has to fluctuate for the plants to absorb different things at different levels......You can`t have it both ways Bro.......
If the plants don`t eat , then ph drops and ppm`s soar outta range from what ?.........
How can ppm`s stay the same along with ph staying the same when plants are eating and drinking causing nutrient solution levels to drop and need replenished.......
I`ve never seen it in over 15 yrs without auto topoffs , so tell me how it happens.....please........if ppm`s and ph stays the same , there has to be addbacks or topoffs cuz the ppm`s are going away and being used and that CAUSES ph to rise gradually in a dialed hydro setup......
I`ll say this one more time and not post again........As plants eat their nutes ph rises gradually and allows the plants to assimilate and use different minerals at different ph levels AS they rise.....
Without topoffs , as soon as ppm`s have dwindled down below acceptable levels and have been used by the plants , the ph will have risen into the 6`s where the rez needs swapped out, flushed , and refilled........period........
PPM`s and PH CANNOT stay the same if the plants are dialed and eating properly.......witnessed it first hand with 24/7 fed recirculating krusty buckets for over 8 yrs , and another 5 with 5 gal ebb and flow buckets after that........
My dtw coco runs for another 3 yrs were the easiest with just letting the used juice go down the drain and remixing rez`s once a week............
For the record , I only mentioned root rot since those are the exact symptoms when it`s present.....I only said it was possible since feeding 400 ppm`s in 3rd week flower is insane IME , as well as it coming out at 550 runoff........
Peace.....DHF......
I mean , by your own admission you say overfeeding causes ph to drop , so underfeeding causes ph to rise ?.........And then you state that ph has to fluctuate for the plants to absorb different things at different levels......You can`t have it both ways Bro.......
If the plants don`t eat , then ph drops and ppm`s soar outta range from what ?.........
How can ppm`s stay the same along with ph staying the same when plants are eating and drinking causing nutrient solution levels to drop and need replenished.......
I`ve never seen it in over 15 yrs without auto topoffs , so tell me how it happens.....please........if ppm`s and ph stays the same , there has to be addbacks or topoffs cuz the ppm`s are going away and being used and that CAUSES ph to rise gradually in a dialed hydro setup......
I`ll say this one more time and not post again........As plants eat their nutes ph rises gradually and allows the plants to assimilate and use different minerals at different ph levels AS they rise.....
Without topoffs , as soon as ppm`s have dwindled down below acceptable levels and have been used by the plants , the ph will have risen into the 6`s where the rez needs swapped out, flushed , and refilled........period........
PPM`s and PH CANNOT stay the same if the plants are dialed and eating properly.......witnessed it first hand with 24/7 fed recirculating krusty buckets for over 8 yrs , and another 5 with 5 gal ebb and flow buckets after that........
My dtw coco runs for another 3 yrs were the easiest with just letting the used juice go down the drain and remixing rez`s once a week............
For the record , I only mentioned root rot since those are the exact symptoms when it`s present.....I only said it was possible since feeding 400 ppm`s in 3rd week flower is insane IME , as well as it coming out at 550 runoff........
Peace.....DHF......
Stond_Face
Member
Hello DHF,
I didn't understand the point you were making at first. That is, "in a dialed grow, without doing any top-off, the pH will rise due to the plants using nutes." FWIW, I agree.
I checked the pH of my top-off solution last night. It is about 4.6. So, if I didn't add the 5 gallons of top-off solution every few days the rez pH would indeed rise.
Sorry Mate!
I didn't understand the point you were making at first. That is, "in a dialed grow, without doing any top-off, the pH will rise due to the plants using nutes." FWIW, I agree.
I checked the pH of my top-off solution last night. It is about 4.6. So, if I didn't add the 5 gallons of top-off solution every few days the rez pH would indeed rise.
Sorry Mate!
Because that's what happens. When water and nutes are absorbed at the same rate, EC and pH remain flat. All that moves is the water level. When EC and pH fluctuate, water and nutes are being absorbed at different rates aka over/under feeding.
Took me a week or two to get my first grow "dialed in". After that, semi-monthly add backs kept me there. However, as no one pH reading allows absorption of all nutes, this turned out to be a bad thing. Now I overfeed on purpose. Over a two week period, EC rises, pH drops, tap water brings me back to starting levels.
D
DHF
That`s "Not" what happens , or else you wouldn`t need addbacks for proper nutrient uptake as you talked about your mistake , but I digress.....
You`re just not willing to say everything that was going on in your setup , or we`d hear the truth...No worries.......I`m wrong and you`re right........
Was only testifying on what I went through for yrs and yrs , and I assure you it didn`t take a week to dial shit in where plants ate nutes and drank water at the same rates......just don`t work that way......especially using tapwater for addbacks as you talk about.......
I thought this was about teaching folks how ta do things right......
Callin bullshit but in a nice way....Hope everyone does well with your dialed instructions Bro........No more from me.......
Peace....DHF.......
You`re just not willing to say everything that was going on in your setup , or we`d hear the truth...No worries.......I`m wrong and you`re right........
Was only testifying on what I went through for yrs and yrs , and I assure you it didn`t take a week to dial shit in where plants ate nutes and drank water at the same rates......just don`t work that way......especially using tapwater for addbacks as you talk about.......
I thought this was about teaching folks how ta do things right......
Callin bullshit but in a nice way....Hope everyone does well with your dialed instructions Bro........No more from me.......
Peace....DHF.......
FB's set up is well documented and a great read as well. I dont take FB's side often,But you are wrong on your statement s .
Once dialed in my res goes 2 weeks minum with a slight variation ph 5.5-6.2 ,and I add tap water as well .( i have good water)
Believe it or not i have also had 1 successful grow with res temps 80f with no probs
As for teaching I had a douchebag algerbra teacher in the 8th grade ,I flunked
The next year I had an opened minded teacher A+ go figure .
I wonder wich teacher you mite be
Once dialed in my res goes 2 weeks minum with a slight variation ph 5.5-6.2 ,and I add tap water as well .( i have good water)
Believe it or not i have also had 1 successful grow with res temps 80f with no probs
As for teaching I had a douchebag algerbra teacher in the 8th grade ,I flunked
The next year I had an opened minded teacher A+ go figure .
I wonder wich teacher you mite be
D
DHF
Just when I thought I was out , they pull me back in...LOL...
JM420.......Do you realize that your very statement proves what I`ve been screamin ?...........That ppm`s drop as ph rises gradually as in your 5.5-6.2 between rez changes or topoff`s ?.........
That if you added back tapwater it had inherent ppm`s and higher ph from the get that helped buffer your shit and keep ppm`s constant for as you say almost 2 weeks ?.....plants must not`ve been eatin too well.....but..... think about this........
If your ppm`s stayed close to constant/flat during that period while adding back tapwater , then the ppm`s your plants were eating were replaced by the ppm`s in your TAPWATER that`s mostly calcium and magnesium that`s not a balanced diet , but causes the "flat" constant in your rez readings from being replaced by the "tapwater" and it`s indeterminate amount of ppm`s and ph......
I set my rez`s at 5.5 and a week later they were close to 6 , thus needing remixed and reset cuz ppm`s had dropped due to being "eaten" by the plants......
There IS no way you can compare topping off rez`s with tapwater just to bring water levels back up from plants eating , compared to R/O based nutrient solutions with accurate additions as needed.........apples and oranges........
Just trying to make sure proper info`s spread due to folk`s misunderstanding water science in hydro setups......Good water , Bad water........Tapwater has "X' amount of ppm`s depending on source , and most definitely higher ph than R/O..............so.....
Let`s get on the same page ........As far as what kinda teacher I am and have been for many yrs........an honest one.......and very fuckin experienced.........
Peace...DHF.......
JM420.......Do you realize that your very statement proves what I`ve been screamin ?...........That ppm`s drop as ph rises gradually as in your 5.5-6.2 between rez changes or topoff`s ?.........
That if you added back tapwater it had inherent ppm`s and higher ph from the get that helped buffer your shit and keep ppm`s constant for as you say almost 2 weeks ?.....plants must not`ve been eatin too well.....but..... think about this........
If your ppm`s stayed close to constant/flat during that period while adding back tapwater , then the ppm`s your plants were eating were replaced by the ppm`s in your TAPWATER that`s mostly calcium and magnesium that`s not a balanced diet , but causes the "flat" constant in your rez readings from being replaced by the "tapwater" and it`s indeterminate amount of ppm`s and ph......
I set my rez`s at 5.5 and a week later they were close to 6 , thus needing remixed and reset cuz ppm`s had dropped due to being "eaten" by the plants......
There IS no way you can compare topping off rez`s with tapwater just to bring water levels back up from plants eating , compared to R/O based nutrient solutions with accurate additions as needed.........apples and oranges........
Just trying to make sure proper info`s spread due to folk`s misunderstanding water science in hydro setups......Good water , Bad water........Tapwater has "X' amount of ppm`s depending on source , and most definitely higher ph than R/O..............so.....
Let`s get on the same page ........As far as what kinda teacher I am and have been for many yrs........an honest one.......and very fuckin experienced.........
Peace...DHF.......
It is what happens. More importantly it's what did happen which is why I avoid it.
Add backs were not adjustments, they simply kept the res from running dry. At the desired feed level, EC and pH readings remained flat. However, no one pH reading allows equal absorption of all nutes. EC measures total conductivity, not individual NPK values. Over time, while EC and pH remain flat, NPK goes out of balance.
