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copper core ballast or aluminum core ballast?
- Thread starter Hawk
- Start date
ive never seen an aluminum core ballast, aluminum has a high resistance to elec. so id go with the copper core, it'll probably be cooler running and more effeciant.
G
Guest
Copper conducts electricity more efficiently; I think its around 50% more efficient.
G
Guest
The Sunleaves "Luma" series are aluminum with a 5 year warranty, the Sunleaves "Pulsar" series are copper, with an 8 year warranty.eyes said:
it's not a question of resistance, since the core is quite thick and then the energy lost, due to the Ohm law, is quite low. The important factor in a magnetic core is the magnetic permeability, which in aluminum is greater, making it a more efficient metal. And moreover aluminum is paramagnetic rather than diamagnetic, which is better.
Anyhow copper cores have a longer warranty since aluminum tend to oxides more.
Oh, one more thing: aluminum can became an explosive under certain circumstance, like high heat or prolongate use...
Anyhow copper cores have a longer warranty since aluminum tend to oxides more.
Oh, one more thing: aluminum can became an explosive under certain circumstance, like high heat or prolongate use...
Hawk
Member
Here's an article that seems relevant. I can't vouch for the authors' authority on the subject or motives for making the comparison. But it seems well reasoned.
http://vt-inc.com/seminars/alumcopper.php
What I got from it is that aluminum cores can be designed to perform just as well as anything else. It just has to be built right. I guess that's the catch with aluminum cores. Or looking at it more generally, perhaps that's the catch no matter what kind of core. A good ballast is a good ballast no matter what kind of core it has.
It was the Hydrofarm Xtrasun 400w HPS ballast that I was specifically looking at. The copper core version is like 15% more expensive from the retailer I'm looking at.
Oddly, on the Hydrofarm Super Grow ballasts, they've got some of the aluminum (wattages & lamp types) more expensive than copper and some the same price.
The things I care about are typical: heat, noise, and efficiency--probably in that order. I'll pay for measurable superiority in any one of those categories. But if there would be no difference, I'd just assume pay less, obviously.
http://vt-inc.com/seminars/alumcopper.php
What I got from it is that aluminum cores can be designed to perform just as well as anything else. It just has to be built right. I guess that's the catch with aluminum cores. Or looking at it more generally, perhaps that's the catch no matter what kind of core. A good ballast is a good ballast no matter what kind of core it has.
It was the Hydrofarm Xtrasun 400w HPS ballast that I was specifically looking at. The copper core version is like 15% more expensive from the retailer I'm looking at.
Oddly, on the Hydrofarm Super Grow ballasts, they've got some of the aluminum (wattages & lamp types) more expensive than copper and some the same price.
The things I care about are typical: heat, noise, and efficiency--probably in that order. I'll pay for measurable superiority in any one of those categories. But if there would be no difference, I'd just assume pay less, obviously.
im looking at the either the sun 1 or 10. 1 has the better ballast american made the 10 had the cheaper ballast imported.they both have the high temp capacitor.or,...the cap xtreme ballast with the lifetime warranty.the only thing that worries me bout the sun is that for awhile they cheapened em up hence,all these ballast numbers on the market till they got with the program and noticed they were making crappy ballast for awhile. still,im a bit reluctant to try there ballasts again cause of that.The sunleaves sounds cool.id go for the copper core if i were u.
I found the article linked above an interesting read...
I found the article linked above an interesting read...
and so for discussion and educational purposes sake, I'd like share this digested version here.
IMB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Differences Between Copper and Aluminum
Most concerns about winding material choice reflect five characteristic differences between copper and aluminum:
Connectivity
Oxides, chlorides, or sulfides of the base metal are much more conductive for copper than aluminum.
This fact makes cleaning and protecting the joints for aluminum connections more important.
Some consider copper-to-aluminum connections incompatible.
Also questionable are the transition connections between aluminum transformers and copper building wire.
Coefficient of Expansion
Aluminum expands nearly one third more than copper under changing temperatures.
This expansion, along with the ductile nature of aluminum, has caused some problems when bolted connections are improperly installed.
To avoid joint loosening, some type of spring pressure connection is necessary.
Using either cupped or split washers provides the necessary elasticity at the joint without compressing the aluminum.
By using proper hardware, aluminum joints can be equal in quality to copper joints.
Thermal Conductivity
Some argue that the thermal conductivity of copper is superior to that of aluminum in reducing hot-spot temperature rise in transformer windings.
This is true only when copper and aluminum windings of identical wire size, geometry, and design are compared.
Therefore, for any given transformer kVA size, the thermal conductivity characteristics of aluminum can be very close to those of copper.
For aluminum coils to achieve the same current-carrying capacity as copper, the aluminum coil must be approximately 66% larger in its cross-sectional area.
Responsible manufacturers design and test the hot-spot characteristics of their designs and utilize cooling surface area, coil geometry, air ducting, and conductor shape to produce acceptable hot-spot gradients regardless of winding material.
Electrical Conductivity
Often, arguments point to the inferiority of aluminum conductivity, citing the fact that aluminum has only 61% of the conductivity of copper, which causes higher energy losses in aluminum transformers.
Designers are always concerned with winding temperature. To keep the temperature below the insulation rating, aluminum transformers are designed with aluminum conductors of larger cross-sectional area than copper.
On average, this results in energy losses that are the same for aluminum as for copper.
Therefore, transformers of similar design with the same temperature rise have roughly equivalent losses regardless of conductor material.
Transformer manufacturers limit the variety of conductor sizes stocked.
Because of this, some designs in aluminum can obtain lower losses than copper simply because the choice of wire size is limited.
In other designs, copper is more efficient.
Few, if any, low voltage dry-type transformer manufacturers change frame size of the core when switching from aluminum to copper, so core loss remains roughly equivalent regardless of the winding material.
If equal efficiency can be obtained by varying the wire size and core losses remain the same, there is no practical reason to expect one design to be more efficient than the other.
The cost differential between copper and aluminum can often make it possible to provide larger aluminum conductors, which results in lower load losses at less cost than if copper conductors were used.
Tensile Strength
The lower tensile and yield strength of aluminum has prompted some concern about its use in cyclic load applications.
Loads drawing high peaks of current such as DC drives and other SCR controllers, create electromagnetic forces that can cause movement of conductors and coil leads.
Aluminum has only 38% of the tensile strength of copper.
As previously noted, to obtain equal ratings in aluminum transformers, it typically requires 66% more cross-sectional area than copper conductors.
The use of larger-sized conductors results in aluminum winding strength nearly equivalent to copper windings.
The ability of a transformer to withstand the long-term mechanical effects of "high impact" loads depends more on adequate coil balance and lead support than on conductor choice.
No significant difference in mechanical failure has been experienced between copper or aluminum low voltage transformers.
Connectivity
Connectivity is by far the most common reason for "prejudice" against the use of aluminum-wound transformers.
Both copper and aluminum are prone to oxidation or other chemical changes when exposed to the atmosphere.
The problem is that aluminum oxide is a very good insulator, whereas copper oxide, although not considered to be a good conductor, is not nearly as troublesome in bolted connections. Cleaning and brushing with a quality joint compound to prevent oxidation is recommended for either material and simply more essential for aluminum.
Most electricians are well trained in these procedures, and the technique of making bolted aluminum connections is a well-established and proven practice.
In general, bolted connection of un-plated aluminum to copper is discouraged.
Although several reliable welding processes and explosive bonding techniques can be performed to join the two metals, neither are used to a great degree in present transformer manufacturing.
The majority of aluminum-to-copper connections are made by applying silver-or tin-plating to either or both of the conductor metals in the bolted connection.
The majority of cable connections to aluminum-wound transformers use tin-plated aluminum lugs.
These lugs are specifically rated (Al/Cu) for connecting copper building wire to either metal.
This practice is universally accepted and has proven to be reliable throughout the more than 30 years aluminum -wound transformers have been in use.
THEORY VS. PRACTICAL USE
Most arguments in favor of copper have been based on theories which, in practice, amount to nothing substantial.
Several theories also exist that favor the use of aluminum.
One argument focuses on the different techniques used to make copper and aluminum connections.
Internal transformer connections made with copper are generally brazed, whereas the same aluminum connections are welded using inert gas.
Technically, the brazing technique causes the copper connection to have lower conductivity than the copper base metal.
Inert gas welding of aluminum produces a continuous aluminum joint with no degradation of conductivity.
In addition, some argue that over time copper oxide continues to form, flaking off exposed copper and eventually damaging the entire conductor.
On the other hand, aluminum oxide forms a tenacious, protective coat over the exposed metal, which stops the oxidation after only a few millionths of an inch.
Yes, these may be valid points that may have an impact in unusually corrosive atmospheres or extreme conditions of loading. However, the average user should really not be too concerned about these theoretical considerations because both copper and aluminum transformers have excellent records in long years of practical use.
The only valid engineering reason for choosing copper over aluminum appears to be space considerations.
An irrefutable fact is that copper-wound transformer can be made smaller than aluminum transformers.
Mainly OEM customers, who purchase open-core-and-coil transformers to put into their own devices, take advantage of the space savings.
Most enclosed general purpose transformers are sold in the same enclosure size for aluminum or copper, so that even this small advantage for copper is not realized.
CONCLUSION
Choosing between aluminum or copper transformer windings comes down to personal preference.
The premium price for copper often requires purchase justification, but these arguments have been refuted in this bulletin.
In truth, industry experience simply does not support any of the commonly stated reasons for choosing copper over aluminum.
Aluminum-wound low voltage transformers will probably continue to gain increased acceptance because of their significant cost advantage over copper.
As some of the old myths disappear because of the overwhelming success of the aluminum, more users will become comfortable with the relatively minor additional attention to detail necessary for making reliable aluminum connections.
The extra attention given to aluminum joints has been theorized to contribute to better joints in aluminum than in copper.
However, good practices when making electrical connections are an advantage to everyone in the industry, regardless of whether aluminum or copper is being used.
Before investing in the additional cost of copper transformers, examine the reasons for copper preferences in the specifications.
http://vt-inc.com/seminars/alumcopper.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Call me a traditionalist, but I like the year in, year out long time reliability of a top quality copper ballast.
I'm a big fan of the quality and reliability of Universal's Ballast kits (and its various components), the 1000 watt HPS Quad Tap "S1000MLTAC5M-500K" S52 in particular. "Advance" is another common quality brand.
One can many times acquire "broken" HID ballasts off of say Craigslist and then repair them oneself relatively cheaply (preferably with upgraded top quality parts.)
IMB
THE ART OF TROUBLESHOOTING ARC DISCHARGE LAMPS (fyi)
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4074629#post4074629
I found the article linked above an interesting read...
and so for discussion and educational purposes sake, I'd like share this digested version here.
IMB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Differences Between Copper and Aluminum
Most concerns about winding material choice reflect five characteristic differences between copper and aluminum:
Connectivity
Oxides, chlorides, or sulfides of the base metal are much more conductive for copper than aluminum.
This fact makes cleaning and protecting the joints for aluminum connections more important.
Some consider copper-to-aluminum connections incompatible.
Also questionable are the transition connections between aluminum transformers and copper building wire.
Coefficient of Expansion
Aluminum expands nearly one third more than copper under changing temperatures.
This expansion, along with the ductile nature of aluminum, has caused some problems when bolted connections are improperly installed.
To avoid joint loosening, some type of spring pressure connection is necessary.
Using either cupped or split washers provides the necessary elasticity at the joint without compressing the aluminum.
By using proper hardware, aluminum joints can be equal in quality to copper joints.
Thermal Conductivity
Some argue that the thermal conductivity of copper is superior to that of aluminum in reducing hot-spot temperature rise in transformer windings.
This is true only when copper and aluminum windings of identical wire size, geometry, and design are compared.
Therefore, for any given transformer kVA size, the thermal conductivity characteristics of aluminum can be very close to those of copper.
For aluminum coils to achieve the same current-carrying capacity as copper, the aluminum coil must be approximately 66% larger in its cross-sectional area.
Responsible manufacturers design and test the hot-spot characteristics of their designs and utilize cooling surface area, coil geometry, air ducting, and conductor shape to produce acceptable hot-spot gradients regardless of winding material.
Electrical Conductivity
Often, arguments point to the inferiority of aluminum conductivity, citing the fact that aluminum has only 61% of the conductivity of copper, which causes higher energy losses in aluminum transformers.
Designers are always concerned with winding temperature. To keep the temperature below the insulation rating, aluminum transformers are designed with aluminum conductors of larger cross-sectional area than copper.
On average, this results in energy losses that are the same for aluminum as for copper.
Therefore, transformers of similar design with the same temperature rise have roughly equivalent losses regardless of conductor material.
Transformer manufacturers limit the variety of conductor sizes stocked.
Because of this, some designs in aluminum can obtain lower losses than copper simply because the choice of wire size is limited.
In other designs, copper is more efficient.
Few, if any, low voltage dry-type transformer manufacturers change frame size of the core when switching from aluminum to copper, so core loss remains roughly equivalent regardless of the winding material.
If equal efficiency can be obtained by varying the wire size and core losses remain the same, there is no practical reason to expect one design to be more efficient than the other.
The cost differential between copper and aluminum can often make it possible to provide larger aluminum conductors, which results in lower load losses at less cost than if copper conductors were used.
Tensile Strength
The lower tensile and yield strength of aluminum has prompted some concern about its use in cyclic load applications.
Loads drawing high peaks of current such as DC drives and other SCR controllers, create electromagnetic forces that can cause movement of conductors and coil leads.
Aluminum has only 38% of the tensile strength of copper.
As previously noted, to obtain equal ratings in aluminum transformers, it typically requires 66% more cross-sectional area than copper conductors.
The use of larger-sized conductors results in aluminum winding strength nearly equivalent to copper windings.
The ability of a transformer to withstand the long-term mechanical effects of "high impact" loads depends more on adequate coil balance and lead support than on conductor choice.
No significant difference in mechanical failure has been experienced between copper or aluminum low voltage transformers.
Connectivity
Connectivity is by far the most common reason for "prejudice" against the use of aluminum-wound transformers.
Both copper and aluminum are prone to oxidation or other chemical changes when exposed to the atmosphere.
The problem is that aluminum oxide is a very good insulator, whereas copper oxide, although not considered to be a good conductor, is not nearly as troublesome in bolted connections. Cleaning and brushing with a quality joint compound to prevent oxidation is recommended for either material and simply more essential for aluminum.
Most electricians are well trained in these procedures, and the technique of making bolted aluminum connections is a well-established and proven practice.
In general, bolted connection of un-plated aluminum to copper is discouraged.
Although several reliable welding processes and explosive bonding techniques can be performed to join the two metals, neither are used to a great degree in present transformer manufacturing.
The majority of aluminum-to-copper connections are made by applying silver-or tin-plating to either or both of the conductor metals in the bolted connection.
The majority of cable connections to aluminum-wound transformers use tin-plated aluminum lugs.
These lugs are specifically rated (Al/Cu) for connecting copper building wire to either metal.
This practice is universally accepted and has proven to be reliable throughout the more than 30 years aluminum -wound transformers have been in use.
THEORY VS. PRACTICAL USE
Most arguments in favor of copper have been based on theories which, in practice, amount to nothing substantial.
Several theories also exist that favor the use of aluminum.
One argument focuses on the different techniques used to make copper and aluminum connections.
Internal transformer connections made with copper are generally brazed, whereas the same aluminum connections are welded using inert gas.
Technically, the brazing technique causes the copper connection to have lower conductivity than the copper base metal.
Inert gas welding of aluminum produces a continuous aluminum joint with no degradation of conductivity.
In addition, some argue that over time copper oxide continues to form, flaking off exposed copper and eventually damaging the entire conductor.
On the other hand, aluminum oxide forms a tenacious, protective coat over the exposed metal, which stops the oxidation after only a few millionths of an inch.
Yes, these may be valid points that may have an impact in unusually corrosive atmospheres or extreme conditions of loading. However, the average user should really not be too concerned about these theoretical considerations because both copper and aluminum transformers have excellent records in long years of practical use.
The only valid engineering reason for choosing copper over aluminum appears to be space considerations.
An irrefutable fact is that copper-wound transformer can be made smaller than aluminum transformers.
Mainly OEM customers, who purchase open-core-and-coil transformers to put into their own devices, take advantage of the space savings.
Most enclosed general purpose transformers are sold in the same enclosure size for aluminum or copper, so that even this small advantage for copper is not realized.
CONCLUSION
Choosing between aluminum or copper transformer windings comes down to personal preference.
The premium price for copper often requires purchase justification, but these arguments have been refuted in this bulletin.
In truth, industry experience simply does not support any of the commonly stated reasons for choosing copper over aluminum.
Aluminum-wound low voltage transformers will probably continue to gain increased acceptance because of their significant cost advantage over copper.
As some of the old myths disappear because of the overwhelming success of the aluminum, more users will become comfortable with the relatively minor additional attention to detail necessary for making reliable aluminum connections.
The extra attention given to aluminum joints has been theorized to contribute to better joints in aluminum than in copper.
However, good practices when making electrical connections are an advantage to everyone in the industry, regardless of whether aluminum or copper is being used.
Before investing in the additional cost of copper transformers, examine the reasons for copper preferences in the specifications.
http://vt-inc.com/seminars/alumcopper.php
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Call me a traditionalist, but I like the year in, year out long time reliability of a top quality copper ballast.
I'm a big fan of the quality and reliability of Universal's Ballast kits (and its various components), the 1000 watt HPS Quad Tap "S1000MLTAC5M-500K" S52 in particular. "Advance" is another common quality brand.
One can many times acquire "broken" HID ballasts off of say Craigslist and then repair them oneself relatively cheaply (preferably with upgraded top quality parts.)
IMB
THE ART OF TROUBLESHOOTING ARC DISCHARGE LAMPS (fyi)
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4074629#post4074629
Last edited:
B
Bud Bug
Every aluminum ballast that I've seen and I've seen 100's have run hotter and lasted 30-50% less then copper coils. There are probably good aluminum ballasts out there but none that I've seen in the hydro industry, they also come with shitty caps/ignitors. The wholesale cost of a copper vs aluminum ballast is about $15
[QUOTE. . . I'm a big fan of the quality and reliability of Universal's Ballast kits (and its various components), the 1000 watt HPS Quad Tap "S1000MLTAC5M-500K" S52 in particular. "Advance" is another common quality brand.
One can many times acquire "broken" HID ballasts off of say Craigslist and then repair them oneself relatively cheaply (preferably with upgraded top quality parts.)QUOTE]
Sheesh, Now I find this info!
Had main plus spare both die in the last week and searching like hell to find ballast/components online/the bay, etc. 'cause I kinda live in the country.
These ballast monsters weigh about a ton too, so $90.00 for just standard shipping a DIY 1000 watt kit was typical from places like Atlas. Shipping rates have just gone beserk in the last year. . .
Finally found one for about $126.00 including shipping, new Sun Systems 1K HPS multi-tap kit, but now I'm wondering about quality . . .
He, he . . . uhhh, anybody wanna vollunteer a distributor that carries those high-quality components like the Universal at rock bottom prices with reasonable shipping options?
. . . OK, two outta three wouldn't be bad.
One can many times acquire "broken" HID ballasts off of say Craigslist and then repair them oneself relatively cheaply (preferably with upgraded top quality parts.)
QUOTE]Sheesh, Now I find this info!
Had main plus spare both die in the last week and searching like hell to find ballast/components online/the bay, etc. 'cause I kinda live in the country.
These ballast monsters weigh about a ton too, so $90.00 for just standard shipping a DIY 1000 watt kit was typical from places like Atlas. Shipping rates have just gone beserk in the last year. . .
Finally found one for about $126.00 including shipping, new Sun Systems 1K HPS multi-tap kit, but now I'm wondering about quality . . .
He, he . . . uhhh, anybody wanna vollunteer a distributor that carries those high-quality components like the Universal at rock bottom prices with reasonable shipping options?
. . . OK, two outta three wouldn't be bad.
highpressuresodiumdotnet has a very good price price on these:
I'm sure one could send a money order and then have the shipment held at your local fedex/ups facility for a will call pickup in order to remain somewhat more anonymous/discrete.
This guy has about 5 or 6? business names online operating from this address and number:
5451 Bryant Ave South
Sanford, FL 32773
USA
888.553.5655
ballastkit.com and expresslightbulbs.com are some other names for the same guy, different prices.
Perhaps also check with ones favorite Online Hydroponic gardening supply store as many times they will meet or beat a best delivered price in order to get the sale.
IMB
your credit card and delivered box will say highpressuresodium.not, so they are not discrete in that particular aspect, your delivery guy may guess wassup with that 30 pound box.
I'm sure one could send a money order and then have the shipment held at your local fedex/ups facility for a will call pickup in order to remain somewhat more anonymous/discrete.
This guy has about 5 or 6? business names online operating from this address and number:
5451 Bryant Ave South
Sanford, FL 32773
USA
888.553.5655
ballastkit.com and expresslightbulbs.com are some other names for the same guy, different prices.
Perhaps also check with ones favorite Online Hydroponic gardening supply store as many times they will meet or beat a best delivered price in order to get the sale.
IMB
Last edited:
R
RedRain
copper > aluminum
I.M. Boggled; . . . I'm sure one could send a money order and then have the shipment held at your local fedex/ups facility for a will call pickup in order to remain somewhat more anonymous/discrete. . .[/QUOTE said:Thank you Boggle!
Is IM Boggled a nice person, or what?
That's some good info with good sources and the prices are right there too.
I should have availed myself of the help available here on IC before freaking out and desperately ordering the first thing I could find. It will be OK, but I'll know better for next time. . . and there will always be a next time when you play with this stuff.
Thanks again! . . . (nice folks around here)
It is helpful for growers who are using HID (High Intensity Discharge - i.e. Metal Halide and High Pressure Sodium) lighting to understand the basics of power.
This short article (linked) will also describe how a standard HID ballast (magnetic, or core & coil) works and what each component in the ballast does.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4101953&postcount=12
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Play it very, very safe:
When rebuilding ballasts, be sure to read what is actually written on the colored individual wires, (i need a magnifying glass), when one is connecting the ballast assembly wires in-order to help insure that it is absolutely, positively, 100% correctly assembled before going and plugging that rebuilt puppy back in.
IMB
This short article (linked) will also describe how a standard HID ballast (magnetic, or core & coil) works and what each component in the ballast does.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4101953&postcount=12
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Play it very, very safe:
When rebuilding ballasts, be sure to read what is actually written on the colored individual wires, (i need a magnifying glass), when one is connecting the ballast assembly wires in-order to help insure that it is absolutely, positively, 100% correctly assembled before going and plugging that rebuilt puppy back in.
IMB
