Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Anti]

My understanding as one who defoliated one run of his plants is that the reason for defoliating in veg is that, for each spot you remove a leaf, two new leaves will form. This will allow your plant to create more budsites (if you veg a little longer) which will in turn increase your yield.

My experience with a plant that was not defoliated in veg, but WAS defoliated in flower is that my final weight was about the same, but the wispy little popcorn that is usually on the bottom 1/4 of the plant had a lot more density.

So... in order to get the full benefit (increased weight at harvest) you have to defol in veg and then again in flower.

I'll be happy to do side by sides of anything if the people interested in the data are willing to chip in for the extra equipment and lighting.

Let me know.

 

[TruthOrLie]

OK, so you defoliated a plant partway thru its cycle and you got a record yield from that plant. To what do you attribute this record?

From your eyeball the yield did not significantly increase???? From your EYEBALL??????? Considering the demands you try to put on others, I find your lenience with yourself to be quite surprizing.

Why are individuals so insistent to pick apart an example that produced undesirable results?

It would seem easier, in my imagination, to show a side by side. A clear cut distiction of differences.

...with that said... I began to defoliate both plants in Veg, early on. Noticing the structure and growth patern of the Sativa, I decided not to continue defoliating. The Indica, which I continued to defoliate throughout Veg and Flower developed grey mold for the first time in any of my runs... with any strain in all the years I have been growing. Period.

To answer your question: To what do I blame the increased yield from the Sativa? I vegged it out longer and larger than ever before because it was the last time I was going to run the strain.

If individuals who praise this technique can be so quick to blame their increased yields on removing leaves without any side by side demonstration, then why can't I, someone who has also used this technique be so quick to blame grey mold on removing leaves without any side by side demonstration?

Is this thread ONLY for people who have successes with the technique and not for those who have no success? What's with all the name calling and troll bashing?

Am I declaring defoliation a failed technique? No. I am requesting for clearer proof. There is nothing wrong with that. If I have missed the clearer proof then so be it, please direct me to the proof. If not, I'll be busy reading.

 

[JWP]

Obviously you do not know what you are talking about. Plants can change sex if stressed from seed much easier. They can also change sex from clone...but much less likely. Anytime you grow a plant for the first time...from seed...doing anything stressful is just stupid. Grow the plant normally, sex it, clone it...then experiment. How is anything I said rubbish? I said you could defoliate from seed....but I personally never would. It would be a waste to do anything stressful before knowing sex. Now does that make sense to you?

Obviously none of you have any respect for anything i'm saying here no matter how logical or just plain true it is.

So whos opinion do you respect? There must be a great breeder out there who you will believe?

Chimera? SamS? Rez? Gypsy? Tom? Head?

Just send any of them a quick msg asking if a plant from seed is more likely to herm than its clone.


==============================================

Obviously i do not know what i'm talking about. So please explain to me this idea?

What is the difference between the mother and clone that will cause the mother to herm more easily?

It is exactly the same genetic material thats why its called a clone.. So whats the diff?

 

[High Country]

Obviously i do not know what i'm talking about. So please explain to me this idea?

What is the difference between the mother and clone that will cause the mother to herm more easily?

It is exactly the same genetic material thats why its called a clone.. So whats the diff?[/quote]

Correct JWP, they are identical.

 

[huntingbb]

My understanding as one who defoliated one run of his plants is that the reason for defoliating in veg is that, for each spot you remove a leaf, two new leaves will form. This will allow your plant to create more budsites (if you veg a little longer) which will in turn increase your yield.

My experience with a plant that was not defoliated in veg, but WAS defoliated in flower is that my final weight was about the same, but the wispy little popcorn that is usually on the bottom 1/4 of the plant had a lot more density.

So... in order to get the full benefit (increased weight at harvest) you have to defol in veg and then again in flower.

I'll be happy to do side by sides of anything if the people interested in the data are willing to chip in for the extra equipment and lighting.

Let me know.

Sir, a generous offer, btw i still love the shit outta your micro setups - if the proof is in the puddin, i'd say your a damn good cook ~_^ (i.e. for the uninitiated - he rox pay attn)

 

[El Toker]

I've got to admit that this thread has become quite addictive for me now, it's usually one of the first things I look at when I get here.

Watching a small band of hardcore defoliation believers defend themselves and refuse to budge against the forces of knowledge, experience and common sense just gets funnier every day. I particularly like the way that they refer back to the "old days" when everyone on the thread was a happy defoliator sharing their love of the word of k33fter, despite the fact that the first person to call bullshit did so before the end of the first page.

I'm glad to see that as soon as one sane person gives up trying to argue reason and leaves the thread another one steps up to take over.

Can we please have lots more pictures of stringy bald looking plants with a few poor to mediocre buds on them as "evidence" of this high yield technique? They always make me laugh.

 

[Madrus Rose]

I've got to admit that this thread has become quite addictive for me now, it's usually one of the first things I look at when I get here.

Watching a small band of hardcore defoliation believers defend themselves and refuse to budge against the forces of knowledge, experience and common sense just gets funnier every day. I particularly like the way that they refer back to the "old days" when everyone on the thread was a happy defoliator sharing their love of the word of k33fter, despite the fact that the first person to call bullshit did so before the end of the first page.

I'm glad to see that as soon as one sane person gives up trying to argue reason and leaves the thread another one steps up to take over.

Can we please have lots more pictures of stringy bald looking plants with a few poor to mediocre buds on them as "evidence" of this high yield technique? They always make me laugh.

Maybe we create demons in our repeated idioms & get addicted to them, like u to this thread & strive to torture the extreme to the extremes for the sake off argument ? The best & most proflific pro gardeners that rarely post on these forums any longer almost all employ deleafing & judicious pruning up of their plants indoors ....its just almost an automatic technique when using artificial lighting in an indoor situation & shooting for the best yields ....the best among us have found & do employ .

Of course stripping bare a small plant in early veg is ludicrous but thought after 150 pages we all just might have figured that some more middle path of understanding might be possible...which is pruning up the plant somewhat & tender pruning above as well . Ah , but why argue when u guys are having so much fun beating dead horses into the ground , without learning anything, love to argue till its as old as 100yr bonsai?

All pro gardeners around the world prune their plants ...but guess they don't post here any longer and makes u wonder why ? But then again just few posts back u decidely stated u don't believe in flushing your plants any longer because u just can't see why it makes any difference ? Flushing doesn't make a difference ?
Now thats a wee bit blind to the facts isn't it mate...especially to the pros ?
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4010689#post4010689


" I don't flush, I used to, but can't tell the difference in the weed, neither can any of my friends we've all been smoking for over 25 years. Personally, I think the whole flushing thing is probably a load of old hairy hippie bollocks. "

The plant below has been pruned in the "happy middle path" way ...way its supposed to be done, vigorously underneath & judiciously ontop. Not to extremes but just right . Do u see and she's also being flushed "proper" as well? Just remember the "middle way" ..it takes some work & effort but worth the trip. Not making fun of u or anyone else , but there is a happy middle way towards agreeing on whats right . Why waste so much bandwidth when any pro will tell u the same truth ?

best regards ,

And why work when u can be a slave to art? And not all hippies are old & hairy , we just got wierder & went professional and still pretty good looking !lol

 

[JWP]

One thing i have noticed is that a lot of these hardcore defoliators are mostly new members from late 09 and 2010.

Another thing i have noticed is that when a logical argument is presented to them rather than discuss or even present evidence as to why our argument may be wrong they dont. They quickly label you as a "hater" or "troll" here to cause trouble then proceed to sling abuse at you.

Even stranger than this has been the edit on the first page by k33ftr33z in which he encourages people to read a defoliation propaganda PDF created by his "friend" Tuhder rather than read the whole thread.

Stranger still is all these defoliation gurus from 09/2010 have very few post & no threads and most bizarre of all is that most have zero grow pictures and the ones that do are laughable.

The absolute most stangest thing about this thread is the way it is defended by "powerfull" people and kept as a sticky. Even when no credible evidence to support the claim of the threads title has been presented. I know of many many other threads that deserve to be in its place..

Some defoliators do deserve credit. We all can see the work you have put in and we all do appreciate your efforts.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Of course stripping bare a small plant in early veg is ludicrous but thought after 150 pages we all just might have figured that some more middle path of understanding might be possible...which is pruning up the plant somewhat & tender pruning above as well . Ah , but why argue when u guys are having so much fun beating dead horses into the ground , without learning anything, love to argue till its as old as 100yr bonsai?

All pro gardeners around the world prune their plants...

this thread isn't about proper pruning, I'm all for proper pruning... especially when it is called what it is, pruning, instead of being billed as something it absolutely is not, defoliation.

There absolutely should be a sticky about successful pruning methods, and what situations they should be used in... this thread ain't that, though.

There should not be one about a hit and miss, mislabeled pruning methods being billed as a high-yield technique.

Your plant looks to be pruned similarly to the way mine are, larf sites removed and tops spread apart to allow for penetration... They do not really look like they were 'defoliated', were they?





This is just in general and not directed at madrus:




The red dot on the left is obviously bigger, right???






(The Red Dots are exactly the same)

 

[slowandeasy]

Obviously none of you have any respect for anything i'm saying here no matter how logical or just plain true it is.

So whos opinion do you respect? There must be a great breeder out there who you will believe?

Chimera? SamS? Rez? Gypsy? Tom? Head?

Just send any of them a quick msg asking if a plant from seed is more likely to herm than its clone.




==============================================

Obviously i do not know what i'm talking about. So please explain to me this idea?

What is the difference between the mother and clone that will cause the mother to herm more easily?

It is exactly the same genetic material thats why its called a clone.. So whats the diff?

I do not have to ask anyone. And actually, why dont you PM anyone of those breeders and ask them if they would purposely stress a plant from seed. I know for a fact REZ will not do anything to a plant without having Clones already. I would never do anything overly stressful to a plant before knowing the sex. Clones are the same genetics as the mother, but stressing the plant before being sexed can produce hermies.

It is easier for a seeded plant to hermie, because you have never grown it before. Some plants can take more stress than others. If you grow the plant normally atleast once...you will know how it grows...without doing anything abnormal. Some plants do not like to be defoliated in Veg, doing that to an expensive seed never grown before is plain retarded. I simply said it is less likely for a clone to HERMIE...because you already know what it can take stress wise. Argue all you want. Tell me I do not know what I am talking about. Honestly I could care less what you think.

BTW just because some people joined this site after you, does not mean they are less experienced.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I prune my 'started as seed' plants beginning the moment I see the first preflower.

 

[slowandeasy]

I prune my 'started as seed' plants beginning the moment I see the first preflower.

My point exactly...once you see a Pre-flower. Would you do anything overly stressful before knowing sex? Could stressing before knowing sex cause it to hermie?

 

[JWP]

It is easier for a seeded plant to hermie, because you have never grown it before.

lol but what is it that is genetically different that could cause the mother to hermie but not the clone?

Could stressing before knowing sex cause it to hermie?

What does knowing the plants sex have to do with it expressing intersex genes? If a stress is going to cause it to hermie it will do so weather you know the sex not & it does not matter if its a clone or seed it is exactly equally likely.

I dont know why you would claim that a clone is less likely to express intersex genes that its seed mother then ask a question like; "Could stressing before knowing sex cause it to hermie?"

 

[slowandeasy]

lol but what is it that is genetically different that could cause the mother to hermie but not the clone?

You just dont get it. I said, stressing BEFORE knowing sex is why it can hermie easier than a clone. Head just said he waits until after he knows sex to prune....wonder why? Doing anything before knowing sex that is stressful is STUPID. If you cannot see the difference, you are blind. I said they are genetically the same. Unwanted stress can cause any plant to hermie..clone or seed. The difference is the age of the plant. A clone is the same age as when it was taken. A plant can take more stress when older, a young seedling is much more fragile. Nuff said

BTW...show me where I ever said they are genetically different. I never claimed that EVER. It is about stress and age

 

[El Toker]

One thing i have noticed is that a lot of these hardcore defoliators are mostly new members from late 09 and 2010.

I've been wondering about that as well. I suspect that there are more than a couple of "sock puppet" accounts on this thread, there are striking similarities in the writing style amongst a few of the posters.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

My point exactly...once you see a Pre-flower. Would you do anything overly stressful before knowing sex? Could stressing before knowing sex cause it to hermie?

I would not ever do anything overly stressful, except when stress testing potential breeding stock.

If a plant has genetic intersex traits, then they will show up wether or not it is stressed in flower... stress doesn't 'change' plants, it just causes existing genetic traits to be manifested.

All things being equal... I'd just as soon know about intersexed plants asap, though, so's I can cull 'em.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Head just said he waits until after he knows sex to prune....wonder why?

because there is no sense wasting time and space pruning males.


sex usually shows very soon after internodes alternate... most of my plants get FIM'd as soon as soon as I see the first preflower, usually the plant has around 9 internodes when sex first shows.

 

[slowandeasy]

I would not ever do anything overly stressful, except when stress testing potential breeding stock.

If a plant has genetic intersex traits, then they will show up wether or not it is stressed in flower... stress doesn't 'change' plants, it just causes existing genetic traits to be manifested.

So we agree! Stressing before knowing sex is stupid! Would you also agree that plants can take more stress once older? Manifesting a genetic trait means you did something for it to appear, and if you did not manifest it...it may not happen. So what you are saying is stress can cause an unstable gene to display unwanted traits right?

 

[JWP]

BTW...show me where I ever said they are genetically different. I never claimed that EVER. It is about stress and age

You imply right there that the age of a plant effects its ability to cope with stress.

You imply many times that the clone is somehow different from its mother and that the mother may hermie while the clone might not?

"Did you try defoliating a plant from seed? I would never defoliate a plant from seed...only clones."

"but IMO stressing a plant from seed could result in a hermie. Not saying it will, but I am not willing to take that risk. Once you know what is Male and Female, then I would start...but that is just me. "

"Plants can change sex if stressed from seed much easier"

"They can also change sex from clone...but much less likely."

"Clones are the same genetics as the mother, but stressing the plant before being sexed can produce hermies."

 

[TruthOrLie]

LOL.

Male plants are male plants.

Female plants are female plants.

Intersex plants are intersex plants, usually expressed during/after stressors.

There's no limit line you cross where a hermie won't be a hermie anymore.

There is a limit to the stress it can take... but if early stressors cause a plant to hermie, then the sooner you know, the better.

Why would you want to wait until the last week of flowering to have your huge bush start to throw nanners because your temps are too high or your plant got too close to the lamps?

All that being said, intersex genes run rampant throught the MJ scene. Get used to it. They're not the end of the world. Just not something to hold on to.

My high yielding sativa plant went Hermie on one cola, but that cola was also heat/light burned from being waaaay too close to the bulb. First time that happened on over a year of running this strain. Did I blame defoliation on my plant going hermie? Nooooooooooooo. There was clearly something else which caused my plants health to become the way it was.