New 13K build, some questions

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

Hello IC!

I am hoping to be breaking ground on a new build by the first of the year. I am going to have a nice space dedicated to my medical garden, a 1200sqft polebarn. If that deal doesn't fall through it could be the same size or larger. I have been gathering supplies for this grow for a couple months and currently.

This has to be my third thread with this question:

How in the hell can I cool a 8K sealed flower room during the winter time. I live where it gets cold as hell, below 0F for part of the winter. I need to be able to cool my sealed flower chamber in the dead of winter, without exchanging any air maintaining my co2.

I don't want to divert a shit ton of the air outside of the room outside, because this ambient air will be part of my veg/mom room air.

I have been looking high and low for a unit that can handle 3 foot of snow on it...lol

Do I just put the compressor or whatever inside the polebarn? Won't that make it to damn hot outside of the sealed chamber around my veg plants? huge exhaust fan temp controlled to come on at 80F or soemthing in the polebarn, maintaing the AC unit heat?

I need help IC, who is running a sealed room in a cold environment? I know it snows in Cali!


The rooms:

15L x 30W Flower 8K, 2 16 plant RDWC systems, co2, SEALED

16L x 10W Veg. 4K, 1 16 bucket RDWC, air cooled, active intake/exhaust

6L x 6W Mom Room, 1K, T5 48" 2 bulb x 2, air cooled active intake/exhaust

So you can see 2 rooms are going to be exhausting to the outside as it is. I need to purchase a unit before the year, what will it be?

have any ideas? suggestions? advice? I need to nip this in the but and I can move on....

 

[abuldur]

This might not be what you want to hear but i would say dump the co2 and the ac and go for a classical air extraction system running continuously.You might use a speed variator on this system which will allow you to maintain a constant temperature even with the outside temperature fluctuation.
I run a much smaller system but watt/space ratio is about the same.
It gets pretty cold over here and i have no problems maintaining a proper temperature(ballasts in the grow room) but i have to put a small heater on during nighttime.

peace

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

I am used to runnign heaters and blowing that shit right out the exhaut, that is not going to work for this build.

I found chillking/hydroinnovations, they have alot of cool water cooling shit, but I am not about all that extra shit on my hoods, pretty cool though.

They did have however:

A big chiller that works in -30F, it does not use a compressor, only a fan. It would hook up to a air handler and cool the room. I am requesting the info to find out what the ticket on that will be.

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

here is what I am looking at, hooks up to an air handler, works in 30 below. It is 3hp, they say 1/4hp per light, 1/3 to be safe and accountant for other heat sources, like dehumdifiers, and co2 burners in my case. Would be some sexy shit!

http://www.florahydroponics.com/product.aspx?id=2684

 

[Marshall]

Are you going to air cool the lights?

I ran a flower room slightly larger than 8k with air cooled hoods, and a 25K BTU AC. Summer time the room stayed cool, but the AC ran alot. The main reason was the AC vented into the garage and I did not exhaust it so the garage got really hot.


I think you could air cool, use a 25k window unit, and use a box like the hoosier daddy thread to duct the heat out. I am currently using a window unit and the box, and it works great


no matter what you use to cool, build a box and duct the heat out. It will be alot cheaper. And even if you are legal, you dont need people wondering why the AC is running when its 0 outside.



How about some type of exchanger? I read something about this a while back. They use this for heating houses when bringing in fresh air. Maybe you could find a way to use the cold air to cool the grow room air, but the grow room air never leaves the room. Like a radiator or something.

 

[Marshall]

BTW I think you are overkill on the mom room. It seems like you will be harvesting 16 plants a month since you are only vegging 16 at a time. You dont need a 1000 over moms to produce 16 cuts. I have moms under a 4ft t5 with 5 bulbs (3 are broken) and I can get 100+ cuts. I just pulled 50 cuts off 4-5 plants, and killed 10 plants that were male. All are under that T5

Veg room is to big too IMO.


You can always throw that extra lighting into flower !!!

 

[almostoverit]

spilt ac, or known as ductless ac edit: oops i missed the part where you mention the snow factor. i dunno if the compressors handle that. id imagine so. maybe puting up a nifty costco car port over the compressor?

 

[joe fresh]

well that chiller looks like a nice product, hydroinnovations make great products and have unbelievably amazing costumer service, cant say enough good things about them, i my self might opt for a chiller if i set up a warehouse with 40+ lights....but thats in the future.

what i do know is those things get expensive, like a 1 hp chillking is like 2400$.....if i were you i would seriously look into thermoplus air A/C's, i have 2 of them, they are water cooled air conditioners, meaning you place them in your grow room or lung room and dont need to vent any hot air because there is no hot air, the hot air that would usually be exausted from the a/c is absorbed by the water at almost 100% and then dumped into a drain(i run drain to waste).

so just to recap;

-a/c goes in grow room or lung room
-no air in exchanged with the outside air
-adds 0 heat to your grow, house .....adds 0 heat period...
-cheaper than chiller
-simple plug and play


here is a site for them http://www.thermoplus.com/dev/html_en/page_2_001.asp ...actually thats the pdf with all the diff models. i have 2 3ton KAC a/c's model 036....i got the vertical but if i could go back i would get the horizontal and wall mount it to lifet it up in the air to give me more floor space


now if you have water meters and get charged for your water then i would think that drain to waste is out of the question, so you would need a resivoir of cold water to supply the a/c.....well you could always keep a res outside keeping cold in the winter and have a pump and drain lines so that the a/c can take the cold water from it and then dump the hot water back into it to cool down.....



EDIT- now that i think about it....you could make the most efficient chiller for free.....this method is used for heating houses and pools in the summer but can easily be used to cool a grow in the winter and does the same as a chiller......

just run about 100 ft maybe more of 1/2 or 3/4 inch pipe outside in the winter when it gets cold....have a res in the house, and simply pump your water through the piping that runs outside and back into the res....you res water will be ice cold, then you can use the res water to cool what ever you want....just a thaught

 

[Dr. Buddington]

Check out this compressor less chiller http://watercooledgardens.com/product.php?productid=16386&cat=266&page=1

attach a couple air handlers such as http://www.jonsplantfactory.com/qs/product/63/4182/160975/0/0

Put that on a closed loop system with water/glycol mixture and you should have some energy efficient cooling.

 

[Aeroguerilla]

30x15? id go more lights for flowering room 30 ft? my canopy is 10 x 16 and i got 8kw covering that. you could at least add 6 more lights.

 

[250wscrogger]

8k flower room?

Get a 2.5 or 3 ton split a/c and put the compressor in its own room with 1000cfm per ton exhausting the heat from the a/c outside...


If you aircooled the hoods you could cool 12k with a 3 ton a/c no problems...

 

[Sam the Caveman]

Do I just put the compressor or whatever inside the polebarn? Won't that make it to damn hot outside of the sealed chamber around my veg plants? huge exhaust fan temp controlled to come on at 80F or soemthing in the polebarn, maintaing the AC unit heat?

That sounds a good way to do it. You can get a few attic fans with thermostats and run them all during the summer and run just one during the winter. The ones I saw were rated around 1300 cfm and about $130.

 

[joe fresh]

8k flower room?

Get a 2.5 or 3 ton split a/c and put the compressor in its own room with 1000cfm per ton exhausting the heat from the a/c outside...


If you aircooled the hoods you could cool 12k with a 3 ton a/c no problems...

thats what i run...3 ton a/c is good for 10kw of lights.....open batwing hoods....so if your running air cooled hoods you could cool more than 12kw with a 3 ton a/c....and like i was saying a water cooled a/c is much better than a split where you have components outside, the watercooled a/c is self contained all in one unit....about same price though

 

[ajc0k]

IMO go with the chill king compressorless chiller. except it only handles 8k??. runs only 2 amps, practically free cooling..

"for those who live in a cooler climate, this is the absolute most energy efficient and affordable way to cool the water for your water cooled system. This chiller must be used outdoors and uses cool air and a thermostat controlled fan to chill the water to within 5ºF of ambient air temperatures. In other words if the outdoor temperature is 55ºF and you have less than 36,000 BTU of heat load, the water can be cooled to approximately 60ºF. When used in cool climates this chiller can completely handle the cooling requirements for (8) 1000 watt lamps... USING ONLY 2 AMPS! This chiller is intended for use in conjunction with our air handlers for the most affordable air conditioner you can buy! It can also be used to cool water-cooled CO2 generators, Ice Box heat exchangers and nutrient coolers.{

 

[Lazyman]

I think you'll find in a big building with snow on it, and outside, that you will need to keep most or all of that heat to keep the building at 85* to run CO2. In my 600 square foot outbuilding I did an 8 light run, and even though winter temps rarely drop below 30*F, my exhaust fans rarely ran at night. It was hard keeping daytime temps high enough too, had to run heaters when the lights were off.

I would air cool the hoods, drawing air from inside the room, and use a pair of motorized dampers to blow the air out or back into the room as needed. That way it keeps the hot air when needed and blows it outside when not needed. once normally open damper and one normally closed damper on a sheetmetal tee or wye would do it, plugged into the same 120V thermostat. Unless that pole bar is airtight (they almost never are) i wouldn't bother with the CO2, it will leak out as fast as you can make it.

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

Wow alot of replys.

Ok the Polebarn is insulated, and i will have a high effciency heater in there in the winter to maintain ambient temps around outside of the flower room and in my veg/mom areas. That is the reason i do not want to house the compressor indoors, since I will have to blow 3000cfm of my heated air which is keeping my veg/mom rooms up to par out the building.

I will not go without co2 in the flower room in this build.

The flower room is oversized, I will have 5 foot on the front of my canopys to work in and 10ft in between the two systems. I will have 2 10x10 canopys in the room, both seperate systems, that is why the dimensions are off. Perpetual RDWC, harvest every 4 weeks.

I do like the compressor less water cooled thing linked above from chillking, but 8k is its max and I will be burning co2 and using a large Santa Fe dehumidifier. I want to have some extra cooling capacity so in July when it is 100F+ I don't have to worry.

Air cooling is a good idea of course, but again I would be blowing my ambient temps from outside of the flower room that is dictating my veg/mom temps.

My mom rooms is big I know, but I will be keeping up to 8 moms in there and I get rid of a shit ton of clones all the time to friends. Over the top is the name of the game whenever I do something anyways!

The polebarn is insulated, and I will be constructing air tight rooms inside.

the place does have a well I believe but I will not run drain to waste cooling.

Veg room only allows 5 feert of walking room so it is not to big. I like some room to work in, these are fixed RDWC systems you have to be able to navigate in the room a bit.

Sorry for the brain boggling reply lol, I just woke up with this shit right back on my mind.

I contacted excel air, they said their machines can run to 20F but require daily checks.
20F is a nice day here in January!

 

[Treetroit City]

Just thinking here, and I don't know shit about all this but, at my work we have to use A/C to keep the room with all the computer equipment cool year round. They just installed a new A/C unit couple years ago and that thing runs year round, in Michigan. Looks like a mini split, and believe me, no one is checking that thing monthly let alone daily.
I'll take a look tomorrow and see what brand it is.

 

[Miss Blunted]

I want to see this! Let me hang in the flower room for a little while PK, lol... Sounds fantastic, this I can't wait to see man

 

[The Phoenix]

Well PK, that should be a nice setup. I think I would rather deal with your winter weather when running 13kw than the heat issues we deal with in Cali.

You say the polebarn is insulated, so it should be rather easy to maintain the desired temps in the barn with the winter temps your dealing with.

Dont you think that running passive intake to the hoods from cool barn air and exhausting into back into the barn from the hoods should do it for all the rooms? You should be able to maintain cool temps in the barn outside of the grow spaces with fans and dampers from outside air. If you decide not to use supplimental CO2, then your going to need to pull in outside air to replenish CO2, which will be consumed rather rapidly with that setup. So bringing in fresh outside air occasionaly should help maintain cool temps outside the grow rooms. It's going to be a balancing act at first, but you can do alot with fan controllers.

With some of the new hoods, you can get insulated covers and quality insulated ducting to reduce the radiative heat from those sources inside the grow space. Also fan controllers for the hood fans to help maintain the temps in the grow rooms. I would get a CO2 monitor for the rooms also, because that will be an issue. CO2 levels can drop below 200 ppm very quickly with these kind of setups.

Here are some CO2 levels and how they affect plant growth.
Below 200 ppm (Plant Growth Slows)
350-430 ppm (Outdoor Air)
600-1500 ppm (Optimal For Marijuana)
Above 2000 ppm (Toxic For Marijuana)

The key is to keep the barn air outside the grow rooms cool enough so the hoods stay cool, then keeping the grow rooms cool should not be as much of an issue in the winter where you live.

I dont think you'll need to go watercooled during the winter months, but it will be something to look into during the summer.

IMO, if you can maintain the barn temps in the 50's/60's, then you should be able to keep the grow rooms cool enough to run that wattage.

 

[Treetroit City]

So the unit at my workplace is a LG and it runs year round. Question for you, is the polebarn plummed or how are you going to deal with water