Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[slowandeasy]

Trust me it will be a fair comparison.. I'm not using it in veg because that, i find totally unusable in my grow space. I'd rather prune them to make them grow the way i want.ie advanced pruning technique.. not with leaf removal..

It will be done in flower on multiple top grow.. The only difference will be defoliating. they will receive the same amount of pruning and training so that they are the SAME. the defoilation will take place up untill the 3rd week of flower.. then i will not touch them again untill harvest. This needs to be a controlled test.. so i will only do this in flower, because quite honestly its the only time i could imagine it to be beneficial.

Im all about efficiency.. so statements like stunting your grow on purpose or using this technique to increase bud sites....Is highly inefficient and stupid in my opinion.

I am never surprised. I know what to expect from my actions becuase i have been there,done that. This test will begin after Christmas.

Defoliating should not be done until after the stretch, nobody here does it before the stretch is over in Flower. Doing anything abnormal during the first 2 weeks of flower would be counter productive. Most defoliate around day 21 and again a few weeks before harvest.

What maybe stupid to you, might work perfect for others. Keeping a plant the right size for your area is the name of the game. For people with height issues and long veg times, it works well. Other than that, I agree it is a waste. I have picture of both ways if anyone wants to see a side by side in VEG. For me I have 2 options. My clones have to be the right size for my tent in 8 weeks. That is a long time to veg a clone. Topping will result in a huge bush, and reduce my plant numbers. My clones are the perfect size for my tent with 3 or 4 weeks of Veg anything longer and they get too large. So I have to take clones of those and then they will be ready for when the other plants are done. Cycle is every 8 weeks.

Defoliating in Veg makes way more bud sites and allows you to keep plants much shorter for longer. This is only useful to people who have to VEG for a long time...like me. Now in Flower is where you will see the real difference. A regular clone would not have half the amount of bud sites, since it did not veg as long. So, the result is more bud on the defoliated clone and less wasted space.


If you are ADDING veg time, it is not worth defoliating in VEG, but If you are forced to veg for over 4 weeks or lack height, it is a good option.

 

[gardenbug]

Defoliating in Veg makes way more bud sites and allows you to keep plants much shorter for longer. This is only useful to people who have to VEG for a long time...like me. Now in Flower is where you will see the real difference. A regular clone would not have half the amount of bud sites, since it did not veg as long. So, the result is more bud on the defoliated clone and less wasted space.


If you are ADDING veg time, it is not worth defoliating in VEG, but If you are forced to veg for over 4 weeks or lack height, it is a good option.

I would agree with this.
I veg 2 months sometimes and my space doesn't allow that much growth. I could veg less time, but with a dedicated veg area I might as well go the 2 months and use defol to keep them smaller. Pruning bushes them out way too much but defol keeps them smaller and keeps nodes closer. They do stop growing for a few days after defol so I wouldn't do it if you are in a hurry to veg.

 

[B. Friendly]

Wish I had pics
From my experience defoliation is usefull and useless depending your type of grow
For example in Stadium Growing i.e. like seats in a stadium your shelves would be, Here NO defoliation is necessary as light reaches the whole plant quite evenly. Also I have noticed I can grow less plants with equal or higher yeilds using Stadiums Style Growing.

On the other hand, when I grew on the floor I had to defoliate my girls so that light would get into the lower branches. My yeild on a 6 light system went up by a whole pound when I started to defoliate.

To all the theoretical shit on this thread ONLY experience speaks, and it speaks volumes. IF any you have never personally experienced defoliation results then please please get the @#$% off your high horse.

Defoliation has not reduced quality by a single iota. Again experience

please explain the benefit of having lower branches that get no light?????? Pruning them off will not make your higher branches any larger to justify the prune(Prune your immediate bottom branches that are scrage). So the only answer is light.

Any idiot that has studied BOTANY would know that for every 1% increase in light a 1% increase of yeild can be noticed. This apparent for most plants such as Tomatoes, Peppers, Cuc's. If you would like to argue this then realize that British Columbia Hot House Growers have the WORLDS highest yeilds. Are techniques are second to none, especially Oxford, Florida or whoever wants to spout off at the mouth.
So I strongly suggest contact the BC Hot House Society or whatever the are called and get a growers manual for Tomatoes, Peppers or Cuc's and learn for yourselves what Defoliation is all about and why it is beneficial.

I'll look for those BC Hot House Association Manuals

 

[B. Friendly]

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/prodguide.htm
scroll to the bottom for the vegetable production guide.
Yes this is a field crop management guide but for $30 it has valuable growing information.

Growers need to consider how to manipulate their diff aspects of growing conditions depending on conditions for optimal Growth.

 

[Neo 420]

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/prodguide.htm
scroll to the bottom for the vegetable production guide.
Yes this is a field crop management guide but for $30 it has valuable growing information.

Growers need to consider how to manipulate their diff aspects of growing conditions depending on conditions for optimal Growth.

If I remember correctly wasn't the OP vegging long veg times?

 

[B. Friendly]

If I remember correctly wasn't the OP vegging long veg times?

the guides tell yea how to work with nature, which can give you some insight to what the plants need and how they grow as they have evolved...
All I am pointing out is that it might be a good idea to learn from the growers who acheive the highest yeilds annually year after year in BC

 

[High Country]

As far as I am concerned veg time is a waste of time, I am now sticking with SOG'S.

 

[B. Friendly]

As far as I am concerned veg time is a waste of time, I am now sticking with SOG'S.

it would be wise to check your yeilds, but it sounds like you have
what where your findings,
like do you go smaller pots now and more of them when SOG?
Give me a bone

 

[High Country]

it would be wise to check your yeilds, but it sounds like you have
what where your findings,
like do you go smaller pots now and more of them when SOG?
Give me a bone

With a SOG I put clones in at about 3 weeks old when the root system is well developed. The clones go straight on to 12/12 and bloom nutes. I use a 3x3 ebb/flow table filled with hydroton and a 1000W HPS. I don't use pots and put the clones straight into the hydroton at 4 per sq/ft so 36 total in the table. I do trim lateral growth if it looks like it is not going to stay close to the main stem. I get 36 of these.

ONE SINGLE COLA

1.6 OZ DRIED AND TRIMMED FOR THIS ONE COLA WHEN I TOOK IT OFF THE MAIN STEM

That works for me. This is turning into a very controversial thread, isn't it.

 

[B. Friendly]

ONE SINGLE COLA

1.6 OZ DRIED AND TRIMMED FOR THIS ONE COLA WHEN I TOOK IT OFF THE MAIN STEM

That works for me. This is turning into a very controversial thread, isn't it.

Really 36 beauties, nice, ok I used to go larger pots and fewer plants, but found that less pots and more stems to a point is more beneficial.
bone well received.
Do you think more girs would incease yeild. that's pretty good for 3 weeks of veg, have had worse results with 4 week vegging.
Gracias

 

[Incognegro]

I plan to do a side by side with my now rooted MP clones... will see what happens, I did do a majority de-leaf about a week ago to my flowering ladies... seem to be swelling a little more, but I have no control to compare with, so the conclusion is invalid since this is my first run of them.

Wait, what am i talking about? I don't grow....

 

[High Country]

Really 36 beauties, nice, ok I used to go larger pots and fewer plants, but found that less pots and more stems to a point is more beneficial.
bone well received.
Do you think more girs would incease yeild. that's pretty good for 3 weeks of veg, have had worse results with 4 week vegging.
Gracias

I think 4 per sq/ft is about the limit for a good SOG. I don't veg under the 1000W lamp, I only veg the clones from the start to a good root system. Then 1000W, 12/12.

 

[GRINKEEEPER]

WOw.. i JUST discovered this thread and wasn't aware how long it actually is.. I knew it would really cause a lot of interest but WOW.. lots a pages for sure.. I cant wait to start at the beginning and work my way up... Thanks for such a great topics to research...

Im locked in for the shows...

 

[huntingbb]

Defoliating should not be done until after the stretch, nobody here does it before the stretch is over in Flower. Doing anything abnormal during the first 2 weeks of flower would be counter productive. Most defoliate around day 21 and again a few weeks before harvest.

What maybe stupid to you, might work perfect for others. Keeping a plant the right size for your area is the name of the game. For people with height issues and long veg times, it works well. Other than that, I agree it is a waste. I have picture of both ways if anyone wants to see a side by side in VEG. For me I have 2 options. My clones have to be the right size for my tent in 8 weeks. That is a long time to veg a clone. Topping will result in a huge bush, and reduce my plant numbers. My clones are the perfect size for my tent with 3 or 4 weeks of Veg anything longer and they get too large. So I have to take clones of those and then they will be ready for when the other plants are done. Cycle is every 8 weeks.

Defoliating in Veg makes way more bud sites and allows you to keep plants much shorter for longer. This is only useful to people who have to VEG for a long time...like me. Now in Flower is where you will see the real difference. A regular clone would not have half the amount of bud sites, since it did not veg as long. So, the result is more bud on the defoliated clone and less wasted space.


If you are ADDING veg time, it is not worth defoliating in VEG, but If you are forced to veg for over 4 weeks or lack height, it is a good option.

Ah, so in your application 30 days veg with no defol is working? defol first time at 21 days of flower (after stretch?) sort of a related followup question below i popped at delta, but plz feel free as well to lay down some wisdom

Congratulations, everyone! This thread has now gone down the path of many others and degenerated into an impossible situation where we have several groups.

We cannot agree on whether it works in some situations or not.

We cannot even agree on definitions.

One group wants to discuss the possibilities of this technique, try it, explore it, talk about it, measure it, analyze it, play with it, whatever.

Right or wrong this is what they want to do. Some of the folks in this group have been successful actually using variations of whatever you want to call it.

The other group is apparently very opposed to this technique for a lot of reasons. I will admit some sound arguments have emerged from this group.

I can understand you being opposed to something. Stating the reason's for your opposition for the record. And then moving on.

And then we come to another type of player in this little drama.

I cannot understand why some of you are even here posting on this thread.

You have no real interest in this matter.

You just don't like the idea.

Or you have a previous axe to grind.

Or you are simply one of those pathetic people who seek vicarious thrills through the exploits of others and just want to be entertained.

What I propose now is that those who are against this and do not want to participate in a constructive conversation about trying to learn how this technique may or may not help them, please just move on.

Please let others who want to pursue this do so in peace.

It will not be viewed as a capitulation of your principles or a repudiation of your arguments.

Instead it will add to your reputations as reasonable, intelligent men.

d9

I said i was done with the argument and was gonna do it and THATS THAT!! SIR!!

ok, so my question would be this:

Youve got great experience doing the 5gal buckets of coco, not sure how perfectly i can make your buckets in my space, i think maybe a blumat ( https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=111046 ) or two per bucket to keep the water proper.

Moving past that - i'm at 90% on having either a 9x5 area or a 6x6 area, planning on just doing 4 for round 3, vertical bulb between the 4 bushes.

My question is what size should the plant be going into flower, and what size coming out?

Ive got 10' ceilings, and will be running ballast as either 1k or superlumens 1.1k.

Yes i've read your thread through, i'm going to end up with a 400w for veg, will build the full 60 days in, and appreciate any advice.

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Hunting bro,
I can answer you Q mate. It Depends, On strain, when you flip 12/12/How big you want you want it be. You need to know the stretch of that paticular strain, small & larger plant stretch.
Once you figure that out you know your strains stretch & can finish the plant up whatever size you want it to be. Ive just droopped a bollock/fked-up. Not knowing the stretch on my new strain & its stretched 150% /or 1.5 times the size it was when i flipped 12/12. I expected a little less.
There are many ways to manipulate stretch, ways to slow it down or even stop it altogether with the use of chemi's, but thats another story. So the answer is, its up to you to get to know your strain's stretch at varing ages/plant heights etc.
In ScrOG i leaf prune during stretch(initial) & clear the underside of my screen & i see no adverse effects at all doing this, no loss in yield at all etc. i then do further leaf prunes after stretch but only lightly & stop around day 28(12/12), & thats it, this system works for me & as long as i have great airflow through my canopy i'm happy. I aim for 40-60 tops/cola's per m2 of screen. I'm, toying with the idea of removing a few more upper leaves to let more light penetrate my canopy, but im not convinced yet, but soon i hope.
Good luck with your projects!
Peace..........Scroger!

 

[slowandeasy]

Ah, so in your application 30 days veg with no defol is working? defol first time at 21 days of flower (after stretch?) sort of a related followup question below i popped at delta, but plz feel free as well to lay down some wisdom [/color]



I said i was done with the argument and was gonna do it and THATS THAT!! SIR!!

ok, so my question would be this:

Youve got great experience doing the 5gal buckets of coco, not sure how perfectly i can make your buckets in my space, i think maybe a blumat ( https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=111046 ) or two per bucket to keep the water proper.

Moving past that - i'm at 90% on having either a 9x5 area or a 6x6 area, planning on just doing 4 for round 3, vertical bulb between the 4 bushes.

My question is what size should the plant be going into flower, and what size coming out?

Ive got 10' ceilings, and will be running ballast as either 1k or superlumens 1.1k.

Yes i've read your thread through, i'm going to end up with a 400w for veg, will build the full 60 days in, and appreciate any advice.

I am saying that with your size room, defoliating in Veg is a waste of time....unless you HAVE to veg for over 4 weeks. The plants slow vertical growth to a halt. Looks like you do not lack space. When you flip is up to you...like stated before, depends on strain and how many plants you fit in your area.
The ONLY reason I defoliate in VEG is because I HAVE to veg 8 weeks or take a clone of a clone. In MY situation it is not adding veg time, I have to veg 8 weeks. If I could only veg 4 I would not defoliate in Veg ever. I have pics of side by side vegging plants, one defoliated...one not. To benefit the most from defoliating in VEG, you have to put in the time. If you have the time, it is worth it...if you are adding weeks of Veg that in not needed...it is a waste IMO. Defoliating Indica's in Veg is a waste as well...for me it stunted it too much and never came back.

Yes I defoliate End of week 3 in Flower for the 1st time. Then again around week 6. If things look too leafy in between I lightly pluck some leaves. This worked really well for me last round and increased my previous yields by 25%.

 

[huntingbb]

I am saying that with your size room, defoliating in Veg is a waste of time....unless you HAVE to veg for over 4 weeks. The plants slow vertical growth to a halt. Looks like you do not lack space. When you flip is up to you...like stated before, depends on strain and how many plants you fit in your area.
The ONLY reason I defoliate in VEG is because I HAVE to veg 8 weeks or take a clone of a clone. In MY situation it is not adding veg time, I have to veg 8 weeks. If I could only veg 4 I would not defoliate in Veg ever. I have pics of side by side vegging plants, one defoliated...one not. To benefit the most from defoliating in VEG, you have to put in the time. If you have the time, it is worth it...if you are adding weeks of Veg that in not needed...it is a waste IMO. Defoliating Indica's in Veg is a waste as well...for me it stunted it too much and never came back.

Yes I defoliate End of week 3 in Flower for the 1st time. Then again around week 6. If things look too leafy in between I lightly pluck some leaves. This worked really well for me last round and increased my previous yields by 25%.

thanks that's exactly what i was looking for.

For me I'm not sure how big the girls should get to maximize the light from a single 1k - with just 4 girls. the count for round 3 is fixed, round 4 might have up to 36. I don't have to veg for any longer than it takes to get girls to the right size under the 400, which i imagine 30 days should do (from planted well rooted clone). Still debating 7 or 10 gal pots for the 4 big uns, but delta's shown that 1lb girls can be done with 5gal coco + root zone - I'm worried about keeping as much water in good temps as is needed for his bucket holders - thus the added size. otherwise i would replicate his grow style (down to my scale), minus the 1k in veg.

 

[Madrus Rose]

Well, this is quite a long busy thread for the discussion of judicious pruning ...my two cents is the best grows have seen done online always employed defoliating . There are those more experienced than I but who've consistently banged it out of the park in their rooms deleafing . And in every case taller plants ( og, sd etc) were denuded up the first 1/2 meter forcing growth to the tops while increasing airflow in & around the pot zone. Depending on strain Lst, scrog, sog & plus early initial topping results in a larfless high yielding , completely filled in canopy , within the parameters of the usable light/ lumen penetration.

The proof is in the pudding as u English say ! But for larger rooms this is quite an exercise but well worth the effort in every case , IMO .

Nice thread , dead on , & carry on !

 

[Blunt_69]

Defoliating should not be done until after the stretch, nobody here does it before the stretch is over in Flower. Doing anything abnormal during the first 2 weeks of flower would be counter productive. Most defoliate around day 21 and again a few weeks before harvest.

What maybe stupid to you, might work perfect for others. Keeping a plant the right size for your area is the name of the game. For people with height issues and long veg times, it works well. Other than that, I agree it is a waste. I have picture of both ways if anyone wants to see a side by side in VEG. For me I have 2 options. My clones have to be the right size for my tent in 8 weeks. That is a long time to veg a clone. Topping will result in a huge bush, and reduce my plant numbers. My clones are the perfect size for my tent with 3 or 4 weeks of Veg anything longer and they get too large. So I have to take clones of those and then they will be ready for when the other plants are done. Cycle is every 8 weeks.

Defoliating in Veg makes way more bud sites and allows you to keep plants much shorter for longer. This is only useful to people who have to VEG for a long time...like me. Now in Flower is where you will see the real difference. A regular clone would not have half the amount of bud sites, since it did not veg as long. So, the result is more bud on the defoliated clone and less wasted space.


If you are ADDING veg time, it is not worth defoliating in VEG, but If you are forced to veg for over 4 weeks or lack height, it is a good option.

Counterproductive is exactly what i will avoid. Running a controlled test will show the effects of defoliating. This means I can only do it at specific times to show the results in a controlled manner.. Any playing with plants after 3 weeks is counterproductive period. Your plants will shock even if your removing a small amount of leaves.In veg not a big deal in flower thats a different ball of wax.Nobody will convince me otherwise.

Stretch occurs for my plants right about 2.5 weeks.. so by the third week will be perfect(). I will not change my knowledge of my strain for this test, i will work it into my current system and technique used for achieving results..That way it will be as plain as day.

I am only going to show the effects of defoliation in flower in the first test, that's all i care about as a grower.Its about overall efficiency for me. Yeild is a big part of that but not the only part.If this does indeed increase yield, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

Using defoliation for speed control I could see as being useful in veg. However i will test each cause and effect independently in two separate grows...ie slowing down one branch to let another catch up to it. I am slightly interested in the effects this will have.

I don't veg for long amounts of time, the magic trays don't allow slow veg times.Slow veg times that's for tree grows and soil grows.Hydro veg's fast, very fast..

Max i might veg for is 30 Days but normally only 2-3 weeks..

 

[slowandeasy]

Counterproductive is exactly what i will avoid. Running a controlled test will show the effects of defoliating. This means I can only do it at specific times to show the results in a controlled manner.. Any playing with plants after 3 weeks is counterproductive period. Your plants will shock even if your removing a small amount of leaves.In veg not a big deal in flower thats a different ball of wax.Nobody will convince me otherwise.

Stretch occurs for my plants right about 2.5 weeks.. so by the third week will be perfect(). I will not change my knowledge of my strain for this test, i will work it into my current system and technique used for achieving results..That way it will be as plain as day.

I am only going to show the effects of defoliation in flower in the first test, that's all i care about as a grower.Its about overall efficiency for me. Yeild is a big part of that but not the only part.If this does indeed increase yield, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

Using defoliation for speed control I could see as being useful in veg. However i will test each cause and effect independently in two separate grows...ie slowing down one branch to let another catch up to it. I am slightly interested in the effects this will have.

I don't veg for long amounts of time, the magic trays don't allow slow veg times.Slow veg times that's for tree grows and soil grows.Hydro veg's fast, very fast..

Max i might veg for is 30 Days but normally only 2-3 weeks..

That is my problem, I grow using Coco and Blumats now and get hydro growth rates. So controlling the size is crucial for flowering time. You know your strains better than anyone. Do whatever you want to them. I do not touch mine until week 3. In my opinion doing it before could effect things differently. But, that is up to you.

If I had a rotation where I could veg only 3 weeks...I would never defoliate in VEG. But 8 weeks is way too long with my growth rates. Defoliation works really well to keep them in check. Good luck on the experiment...thanks for doing it.