Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Grat3fulh3ad]

then just prove that.

prove what? What the study you quoted said about reduced dry leaf weight, and also about reduced total dry weight?

It is easy to prove... just carefully read what you cited... they clearly mention reduction of both dry leaf weight and of dry total weight.


Or that the slight increase in 'fruitfulness relative to height and weight' would be negated by the 28% reduction in height and 30% reduction in weight?

The paper you cited said clearly There was a reduction in yield of 14%.

Removing one-half of previous leaves and of each new leaf weekly from the start of flowering caused little change in the sums of sugar and starch in leaves or young bolls but there was a 42% reductionin the main stems. The half-leaf treatment reduced plant height by 28%, number of mainstalk nodes by 5%, fresh weight of leaves plus stems by 30%, and yield by 14%; relative fruitfulness was increased slightly. Fiber strength was increased but there was little change in other boll and fiber properties.

 

[blazeoneup]

i for one would love to see a side by side with the same cut and conditions.

The defoliated plant would deffinantly lose in a side by side plant vs plant nature.

The bennifit of defoliation can only strike an increase in yields if you pack the plants tight and defoliate, Your not gaining weight by defoliation, Your actually losing weight by defoliation.

Example..

If I run 9 plants under 1k and defoliate and compare that to 9 plants under 1k not defoliated, The side that wasnt defoliated would have larger cola's and more weight period.

If I were to increase my number from 9 to 25 and defoliated the plants I would increase my overall yield, Not by getting larger tops or more weight per plant but just by more budsites and tops that can be packed into the same canopy space using defoliation. Otherwise without defoliation, I'd have to flip those 25 with little to no veg or else they would become to thick and air movement would be effected and possibly bring mold or mildew into the picture. So packing 25 in same space and pruning will allow more tops more cola's more weight in the end.

However its not truely defoliating, Its partial defoliation or leaf pruning. I guess in ways it can be called the high yield technique...

But its really just a form of sog, One which you pack them tight and leaf prune foliage to allow good air flow and light penetration between cola's/tops/plants.

 

[TruthOrLie]

The defoliated plant would deffinantly lose in a side by side plant vs plant nature.

The bennifit of defoliation can only strike an increase in yields if you pack the plants tight and defoliate, Your not gaining weight by defoliation, Your actually losing weight by defoliation.

Example..

If I run 9 plants under 1k and defoliate and compare that to 9 plants under 1k not defoliated, The side that wasnt defoliated would have larger cola's and more weight period.

If I were to increase my number from 9 to 25 and defoliated the plants I would increase my overall yield, Not by getting larger tops or more weight per plant but just by more budsites and tops that can be packed into the same canopy space using defoliation. Otherwise without defoliation, I'd have to flip those 25 with little to no veg or else they would become to thick and air movement would be effected and possibly bring mold or mildew into the picture. So packing 25 in same space and pruning will allow more tops more cola's more weight in the end.

However its not truely defoliating, Its partial defoliation or leaf pruning. I guess in ways it can be called the high yield technique...

But its really just a form of sog, One which you pack them tight and leaf prune foliage to allow good air flow and light penetration between cola's/tops/plants.

THANK YOU!

This is the perspective this thread was seriously lacking. Now its beginning to make more sense.

 

[slowandeasy]

The defoliated plant would deffinantly lose in a side by side plant vs plant nature.

The bennifit of defoliation can only strike an increase in yields if you pack the plants tight and defoliate, Your not gaining weight by defoliation, Your actually losing weight by defoliation.

Example..

If I run 9 plants under 1k and defoliate and compare that to 9 plants under 1k not defoliated, The side that wasnt defoliated would have larger cola's and more weight period.

If I were to increase my number from 9 to 25 and defoliated the plants I would increase my overall yield, Not by getting larger tops or more weight per plant but just by more budsites and tops that can be packed into the same canopy space using defoliation. Otherwise without defoliation, I'd have to flip those 25 with little to no veg or else they would become to thick and air movement would be effected and possibly bring mold or mildew into the picture. So packing 25 in same space and pruning will allow more tops more cola's more weight in the end.

However its not truely defoliating, Its partial defoliation or leaf pruning. I guess in ways it can be called the high yield technique...

But its really just a form of sog, One which you pack them tight and leaf prune foliage to allow good air flow and light penetration between cola's/tops/plants.

The only way your statements are true is if you defoliate in Veg. Defoliating in veg requires more veg time. If you do not defoliate in veg and just a few times in flower, your plants would be about the same size. Defoliating just in Flower does not stunt them like in Veg. The buds on the defoliated plants will be more dense all the way down.

There is no way in hell you could almost triple your plant numbers in the same space, even if you defoliate if veg. You are trying to compare a SOG to defoliating...not the same thing. Packing 25 plants in the same amount of space is a horrible comparision. Defoliating is about maximizing bud sites...SOG is a bunch of Donkey Dicks. It is about less plants, with more yield...not more plants with less yield.

Anytime you pack more plants or more bud in the same space, you will need more airflow. My guess is that Truth or Lie does not have enough airflow...and should realize that is what causes mold.

 

[Happy Haole]

prove what? What the study you quoted said about reduced dry leaf weight, and also about reduced total dry weight?

It is easy to prove... just carefully read what you cited... they clearly mention reduction of both dry leaf weight and of dry total weight.


Or that the slight increase in 'fruitfulness relative to height and weight' would be negated by the 28% reduction in height and 30% reduction in weight?

The paper you cited said clearly There was a reduction in yield of 14%.

At this point bro, you're just pissin' in the wind. Let em believe what they will. They can believe that water ain't wet and the sky ain't blue if they like. "Ignorance is bliss....let em be happy"

 

[pearlemae]

So I defoliated fairly hard at the start of the veg. Then about once a week, although I never totally stripped the plant to no the point of no foliage. What I have seen as this is the second time I tried this, I have seen a large in crease in bud sites. The veg state is definitely longer as the plants need recovery time. But then its time to flip the lights and the fun begins. This run has more branching than the last and they were pretty bushy. I took these pic this morning, they start with the preflowers 8 days ago. Grown in a coco EWC etc mix of my own making, although this time I'm trying gen hydro bio thrive just to see if there will be any difference than what the last time produced just using bat guano tea. Bio thrive is a vegan rated fert. SO heres the pic the plant were planted sept 18th, fed plain water until today when the bio thrive was started. PROOF IN THE PIC'S AS THEY SAY! don't know the strain but it works.

 

[TruthOrLie]

Anytime you pack more plants or more bud in the same space, you will need more airflow. My guess is that Truth or Lie does not have enough airflow...and should realize that is what causes mold.

dude, I have a plant right next to the plant I defoliated.

The non defoliated plant did not get ANY grey mold.

This would lead me to believe at if you are going to defoliate, you actually need to INCREASE air flow/circulation.

Maybe the reason the nugs look so big is because they are swelling full of water because the large fan leaves are gone which would allow the plant to perspire?

Without an actual side by side comparing dry weights it could be nothing more than an optical illusion.

You know what an optical illusion is, don't you?

Something our brain tells us must be true but is far from it.

 

[bs0]

The defoliated plant would deffinantly lose in a side by side plant vs plant nature.

The bennifit of defoliation can only strike an increase in yields if you pack the plants tight and defoliate, Your not gaining weight by defoliation, Your actually losing weight by defoliation.

Example..

If I run 9 plants under 1k and defoliate and compare that to 9 plants under 1k not defoliated, The side that wasnt defoliated would have larger cola's and more weight period.

If I were to increase my number from 9 to 25 and defoliated the plants I would increase my overall yield, Not by getting larger tops or more weight per plant but just by more budsites and tops that can be packed into the same canopy space using defoliation. Otherwise without defoliation, I'd have to flip those 25 with little to no veg or else they would become to thick and air movement would be effected and possibly bring mold or mildew into the picture. So packing 25 in same space and pruning will allow more tops more cola's more weight in the end.

However its not truely defoliating, Its partial defoliation or leaf pruning. I guess in ways it can be called the high yield technique...

But its really just a form of sog, One which you pack them tight and leaf prune foliage to allow good air flow and light penetration between cola's/tops/plants.

It can be applied to SOG. It can also be applied to large plants. What you are spot on about is that it is a very good anti crowding strategy. This is also why a "side by side" isn't very feasible. If you don't have a thick canopy defol will probably be more detrimental than good.

 

[DHF]

I`m gonna try and catch yer back fer a minute Head......Before this thread ever happened , much less was "stickied'" by only God knows who , was Jro`s thread of "leaf stripping" for major yield increases"..........

He said his so-called "BOG" cut would pull 4 lbs off 2-600`s using bare parabolic reflectors with increased plant numbers with a "plan" to strip fan leaves at 21 days bloom , and then at 45 days for the win on regular SOG tables ..........

What folks didn`t realize or really understand was that increased plant numbers dictate yield in ANY setup.....horizontal or vertical.......

He "Quadrupled" the amounts of rooted cuts in a SOG setup and proceeded to tell folks that "leaf stripping" was the reason that he was receiving all these gifts from God.........

Oh......and then said sidelighting from 8' fluorescent shoplights was one of the factors why he was pullin his numbers.....on less than 20" plants ?......Please.....600`s penetrate at least 32" with proper spacing........it was the increased plant numbers.......and it works........just don`t guild the lily by callin it somethin else......

No one ever called him on his shit but me , but several old heads got hold of that pos BOG cut and laughed at it like me down the road but I digress................

510 1/4 oz budsicles from fully rooted cuts per 4 x 8 flood tables under 2-1K`s has made some old friends of mine that sell cuts to the dispensaries weekly in SoCal very happy NOT using "de-foliation" for many yrs without false advertising , but rather dialing strains and mono-cropping for max results............right at 4 lbs per 1 KW for well over a decade.........but.....clone factory comesta mind huh ?....

Dialing your strain at whatever age you chooseta "flip" their ass at for yields you`re seeking is what needsta be discussed instead of unrealistic expectations.......That`s when knowledge is gained.....and yields are increased....

My 2 cents from all them yrs.......DHF.............

 

[huntingbb]

quite a well thought out post.

Illustrates the dangers of assumption for sure, but what should happen is one of you guys who are like 'NO EFFING WAY THIS IS RIGHT' do a side by side - something generous - say 4x8 and 32 cuts each or so - then have one of the defoliators that have the best results mentor the defol side only!! and do your worst on the normal side, and if THAT person is THEN convinced, we have at least some great anecdotal proof if not scientific; one way or the other.

 

[DHF]

Good luck Bro.....DHF...

 

[hydr1]

Here's a little test I ran. I usually remove leaves here and there or if damaged.

After reading this thread and watching it I decided to run a test in a small aero unit. These plants were not topped and had ZERO veg time but were stripped of leaves twice...once at day 14 and once at day 21.

Day one

Day seven

Day fourteen

No pics of the strip but I removed everything but the top two leaves on each.

Day twenty one

Day thirty five

Day fourty two
notice the scabbed stems from removing fans. These buds are swelling nice and though tiny are rock hard tric covered buds

Also years ago I grew kyle kushmans strawberry cough outdoors...I went on vacation around week five and cam back to a two foot pile of fan blades sitting on the work bench in the garage. My dad had plucked every single one....I was furious and scolded him and talked soooo much chit about my solar panels and how the plants would be damaged and stressed....well the bud came out great...I think it helped and mabee that stress is what gave me ONE seed on a plant grown from an elite clone only strain that I stupidly flowered and never made cuts.....I was able to germ the one seed and it was male...a stud..I bred pure kush with it and sour diesel with it and now I have two great four ounce per plant strains with pink pistils and strawberry flav...so it worked out.


I fim, supercrop, lst and scrog ....usually fim supercrop and scrog at the same time. I have no problem bending crushing or torturing plants and I get great results. Grow on dudes.

 

[hydr1]

Because im growing in aero and I can check roots, I noticed when the plants were bushy the roots were fuller...once I stripped leaves the roots were not so thick. So I think if your doing sog in small one gallons or somethings that this method will help prevent root bound plants as well...same bud sites or more with less leaves and less roots.

 

[slowandeasy]

dude, I have a plant right next to the plant I defoliated.

The non defoliated plant did not get ANY grey mold.

This would lead me to believe at if you are going to defoliate, you actually need to INCREASE air flow/circulation.

Maybe the reason the nugs look so big is because they are swelling full of water because the large fan leaves are gone which would allow the plant to perspire?

Without an actual side by side comparing dry weights it could be nothing more than an optical illusion.

You know what an optical illusion is, don't you?

Something our brain tells us must be true but is far from it.

So my scale was an optical illusion? The extra 4 oz dried was an optical illusion? Dude, why don't you just admit that you have hardly any experience growing all together. It is obvious you have only a couple of runs under your belt or maybe just 1. I on the other hand have well documented proof of my yields and have been doing this for over a decade. I have yet to see you produce anything. Lets see some mold pictures buddy! Since you put demands on everyone. Show us some proof.
Maybe your environment is bad or you need more airflow...if your buds are bigger, they restrict airflow! Maybe you are just a newbie and should learn the basics before you make changes?
How about you do the side by side? You keep trolling this thread and add nothing useful. Why are you even in this thread still? Just because you are not a good grower and need to put the blame on something for your failures?

 

[slowandeasy]

Because im growing in aero and I can check roots, I noticed when the plants were bushy the roots were fuller...once I stripped leaves the roots were not so thick. So I think if your doing sog in small one gallons or somethings that this method will help prevent root bound plants as well...same bud sites or more with less leaves and less roots.

Excellent point! I use clear cups and coco with a cover cup, so I can see the roots develop. Roots are much thinner on defoliated plants in Veg. That is why they stay shorter, but the budsites pile up like mad!

 

[blazeoneup]

The only way your statements are true is if you defoliate in Veg. Defoliating in veg requires more veg time. If you do not defoliate in veg and just a few times in flower, your plants would be about the same size. Defoliating just in Flower does not stunt them like in Veg. The buds on the defoliated plants will be more dense all the way down.

There is no way in hell you could almost triple your plant numbers in the same space, even if you defoliate if veg. You are trying to compare a SOG to defoliating...not the same thing. Packing 25 plants in the same amount of space is a horrible comparision. Defoliating is about maximizing bud sites...SOG is a bunch of Donkey Dicks. It is about less plants, with more yield...not more plants with less yield.

Anytime you pack more plants or more bud in the same space, you will need more airflow. My guess is that Truth or Lie does not have enough airflow...and should realize that is what causes mold.

I beg to differ, If thats what defoliation is then it certainly not any high yield technique.

Wow so using this technique I can lower my plant count and get higher yields? Bullshit thats just a load of crap. If I lowered my numbers any defolation would be pointless.

If that was the case it would be simple for one to do a side by side comparison of 4 plants per light 4 being defoliated as you reccomend and the other left alone. The yield would be higher on the defolated side and thats just not true...

Its been said once already not just by me but plenty of others plant for plant defolation lowers yield not increases it. Defolation makes tigher nodes which in turn equals more budsites. However an extra budsite per " wouldnt equate to filling your space and pruning leafs back. Simular to lollypopping, You dont actually increase yields what it does is makes tops fatter why because the lower budsites have been removed and the leafs left intact so all the top cola's can use the extra energy the lower budsites would have gotten.

If you remove the lower budsites and leafs those lollypopped cola's wont get as fat as they would had they been properly lollypopped, Which is when you remove lower budsites and leave the lower leafs to help feed the heavy cola's up top.

If you just pluck leafs during flower sure the nugs will be denser in the lower canopy, However because of the leaf loss your tops wont be as fat, So in the end its just a trade off. Not really a gain. In order to gain from it you need more cola's and tighter nodes.

Also if all you do is prune a little during flower I can assure you your not gaining any budsites (So if defoliation is about maximizing budsites, You might wanna try defoliating once) Once flower has started the stretch is usually overwith so your nodes are not going to misteriously tighten up and gain extra budsites.

If you wanna get high yields with defolation the way to do it is pack them tight and keep them pruned. Maybe I was a little overboard with the whole sog assessment, However you deffinantly need to increase the numbers otherwise the gain is only gonna be sacrifice a little girth for a little less larf...

Lower your plant count pluck some leafs and get higher yields hahaha I can see that working out perfectly.

 

[slowandeasy]

I beg to differ, If thats what defoliation is then it certainly not any high yield technique.

Wow so using this technique I can lower my plant count and get higher yields? Bullshit thats just a load of crap. If I lowered my numbers any defolation would be pointless.

If that was the case it would be simple for one to do a side by side comparison of 4 plants per light 4 being defoliated as you reccomend and the other left alone. The yield would be higher on the defolated side and thats just not true...

Its been said once already not just by me but plenty of others plant for plant defolation lowers yield not increases it. Defolation makes tigher nodes which in turn equals more budsites. However an extra budsite per " wouldnt equate to filling your space and pruning leafs back. Simular to lollypopping, You dont actually increase yields what it does is makes tops fatter why because the lower budsites have been removed and the leafs left intact so all the top cola's can use the extra energy the lower budsites would have gotten.

If you remove the lower budsites and leafs those lollypopped cola's wont get as fat as they would had they been properly lollypopped, Which is when you remove lower budsites and leave the lower leafs to help feed the heavy cola's up top.

If you just pluck leafs during flower sure the nugs will be denser in the lower canopy, However because of the leaf loss your tops wont be as fat, So in the end its just a trade off. Not really a gain. In order to gain from it you need more cola's and tighter nodes.

Also if all you do is prune a little during flower I can assure you your not gaining any budsites (So if defoliation is about maximizing budsites, You might wanna try defoliating once) Once flower has started the stretch is usually overwith so your nodes are not going to misteriously tighten up and gain extra budsites.

If you wanna get high yields with defolation the way to do it is pack them tight and keep them pruned. Maybe I was a little overboard with the whole sog assessment, However you deffinantly need to increase the numbers otherwise the gain is only gonna be sacrifice a little girth for a little less larf...

Lower your plant count pluck some leafs and get higher yields hahaha I can see that working out perfectly.

Have you tried it? No, thats what I thought! You obviously do not know what happens when you defoliate. It creates more bud sites, keeps the plant more squatty. This is in VEG.

In flower defoliating gets light to more areas of the plant. Because you have more budsites from defoliating in Veg...you have more bud sites in Flower than if you grow normally. Nobody said it creates more budsites in flower, ever...it gets more light to parts of the plant...thus bigger buds everywhere.

Do some homework, read this thread. By defoliating in veg, your plants will be much shorter, but more branchy and way more bud sites. Now train those branches out so the extra bud sites get light. Do you know what a scrog is? Tell me 2 of your lolly pops will yield more than 2 scrogged plants....my ass! More plants does not always equal more bud. Fewer nice plants with tons of equal sized buds will yield more every time.

You could do a side by side if you only defoliated in Flower and never in veg. Defoliating in veg changes the plants structure. The plants not defoliated will tower over the defoliated plants, creating an uneven canopy. The light would be farther away from the shorter plants....not a good experiment. Only way to compare is 2 indentical rooms or tents, with the light the same distance away from each. That factor alone will favor the taller plants. Defoliating in Veg controls the stretch and in my opinion is perfect for people lacking height or need to keep plants short for extended periods of time.

Until you have tried it, you have zero experience. Therefore you have zero right to claim anything. If you do not agree...dont do it or try it for yourself. I have done it both in Veg and in Flower and I will be the first to admit...it is strain dependent in Veg. My Indica's do not like it and I will never do it to them again in Veg. My Sativa's love it and I will continue to do it to them in Veg from now on. In Flower if done after stretch, they all respond well and had a 25% increase in yield. Sorry if you disagree, but I have proof that it works for ME..and that is all that matters! Might not be right for everyone, but to make claims without trying is unfair and proves nothing. BTW I gained an average of an OZ a plant vs previous rounds same everything...except defoliating just in Flower and the Colas were bigger than normal and there was ZERO waste.

 

[Dave Coulier]

Excellent point! I use clear cups and coco with a cover cup, so I can see the roots develop. Roots are much thinner on defoliated plants in Veg. That is why they stay shorter, but the budsites pile up like mad!

There is a reason why the roots are thinner without the leaves. The roots require sugars generated during photosynthesis for growth. Reduce the level of sugars they get and I would expect less root development, and smaller roots.

Knowing that, I do not believe the roots that are causing the plants to be more compact. When you remove the leaves, you are also removing the photoreceptors called Phytochromes that are responsible for many things including & most importantly internodal elongation. If the plants ability to sense the R:FR ratio, which controls plant stretch, is reduced via leaf removal, then I would expect plants to become shorter and more compact as evidenced in this thread.

On a side note. Those that have worked with clones multiple times pre defoliation and post, how much time has defoliation added to your veg times? Have you ever compared yield/week pre-defoliation, and post-defoliation? If veg time is extended a significant time, perhaps yield/week is actually better than defoliated plants?

 

[slowandeasy]

There is a reason why the roots are thinner without the leaves. The roots require sugars generated during photosynthesis for growth. Reduce the level of sugars they get and I would expect less root development, and smaller roots.

Knowing that, I do not believe the roots that are causing the plants to be more compact. When you remove the leaves, you are also removing the photoreceptors called Phytochromes that are responsible for many things including & most importantly internodal elongation. If the plants ability to sense the R:FR ratio, which controls plant stretch, is reduced via leaf removal, then I would expect plants to become shorter and more compact as evidenced in this thread.

On a side note. Those that have worked with clones multiple times pre defoliation and post, how much time has defoliation added to your veg times? Have you ever compared yield/week pre-defoliation, and post-defoliation? If veg time is extended a significant time, perhaps yield/week is actually better than defoliated plants?

Bigger roots...bigger plants! But yest both play a role. I have said it many times, that for me defoliation in VEG is a management technique. I have to keep clones around for a long time. So with just topping my plants would be too big for my flower tent. If I had a huge room and bigger lights, I would not defoliate in Veg.

Honestly, every one has to realize that everybody has a different grow space. I cannot grow trees, but vegging a plant for 8 weeks in my set up they get too large for my space without management. Topping is always done no matter what. In veg in the right situation defoliation is very helpful and will increase yield for sure. If you have a huge room or you can flip clones quickly... the Extra veg time is not worth it IMO. But I still will defoliate a few times in Flower, but that is after the stretch so it does not effect plant size. It will increase veg time by a couple of weeks if your going by height...but no matter what, the defoliated plant will have more bud sites. If you can veg for awhile they become perfect bushes with a shit ton of bud sites.

 

[Blunt_69]

Tell me 2 of your lolly pops will yield more than 2 scrogged plants....my ass!

you are wrong friend.