Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Snuff]

Greyskull, yes plants grow under a LED light.

 

[Greyskull]

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

now that i have completed a few harvests using more aggressive defoliation and observed a few others in our group that have used Heavy defoliation, I thought i would add a few remarks to help guide anyone about to try this for the first time.

If you read my previous post you will see that i am quite happy with the extra yeild and density with HDT during veg and flower vs my previous "late flowering" defoliation, accompanied by lolipoping. The effect of Heavy Defoliation as a growth regulator is profound. On plants that were defoliated during the first 2 weeks of flowering I saw almost NO stretch at all, the plants react as if treated with a chemical growth regulator. this could be very helpful to a sativa grower, with headroom issues....but damaging to someone growing indica dominant strains, shorter to start with, unless it is planned for in advance. I kinda like a little stretch and have amended my defoliation schedule accordingly. like everything else, there seems to be a middle balance that is unique to every individual variety and situation.
defoliation during veg seems to encourage a ton of nodal development, done too early (5-6") , it seems to stunt the plants too much. too late (right before flowering) and you dont get those "branches full of nodes"
also:
the advice i took when i began HDT a few grows back was "do not prune any nodes at all" and I will agree that the popcorn buds DO swell considerably when heavily defoliated. However...even big popcorn, is still popcorn. I share the opinion of many growers when i say that i would sacrifice 10 oz of popcorn for 5 oz of "bag ready" buds.
so i have also started to prune wee sucker buds during week 2 of flowering....not lollipoping mind you, but i do remove anything that looks pathetic in mine eyes.

so my new schedule goes something like this:
no Heavy defoliation until my clones are at least a foot tall and well developed. then i pluck em completely. two weeks later and you cant tell they have been touched, they get another good pluck. then no more defoliation until after flowering. this seems to give me a good balance of nodal density and vegetative growth.
I dont defoliate at all during the 1st 2 weeks of flowering. then i hit em HARD. and take nodes that offend me (i grow vert so they are mainly in the middle of the plant...if growing horizontally, these would be the bottom buds).
four weeks in (when i start with my p/k boost) i hit em again...and from then on i see no more fan leaves trying to emerge.
six weeks in, I take scissors and "pre trim" the colas, leaving some leaf but getting as close to the bud as possible without damage. this seems to help ripen any buds that are still shaded.

other growers in our collective have remarked on the varied response of different strains. some seem to stress waaay out, herming when defoliated late in flower. others exhibit no stress at all. something to be considered when trying this on a new cultivar.
overall, I think HDT is the best tool i have added to my arsenal in the last decade. a powerful growth/stretch regulator as good as bushmaster, or an equivalent poison.
Once again, this glorious plant has let me in on a few more of her secrets. like everything it's up to the grower to strike a perfect balance that works for them.

Nice post
Great info

Aloha

 

[bs0]

I have tried defoliation and my plants totally stopped growth. Two weeks after the defoliation and I see almost no progress in plant development. Very sad.

What stage of growth did you take the leaves during?
It appears that you took only leaves on the apical shoots and not under the screen. Is this the case?

What kind of strain is it, (sat or ind) and how much does it typically grow at this stage?

Your grow looks legit, it's possible that the plant you have is just very sensitive.

On the bright side of things they still look healthy, if just a bit delayed. In the past when I have stunted plants from taking leaves (but I took way more than you) the yield was fine provided it wasn't pre-stretch, it just took a bit longer.

Thanks for coming and sharing your experience.

 

[Smokeone1]

I hope someone makes cliffnotes for this thread LOL! a lot of good info but man 100+ pages i took in to much info. What I basically got out of is to take leaves off in veg, and don't wait until to start. A deffo every 3weeks?

 

[5th]

I came to the same conclusion Smokeone1, so I book marked the damn thread so I can just read whats new.

From what I've read/seen posted here, deffo and its results are strain dependent. My plants(bag seed) are like my face was in my late teens. As soon as I cut all that shit off it grows back more full and bushier within the week.

Some other guys with the pricey beans aren't getting as good a luck it seems...regardless...I'm a "plucker" for life now.

 

[High Country]

This thread seems to be one of the most controversial I have seen. People back stabbing each other and carrying on like headless chooks. I don't do defoliation but am not writing it off. I do single cola SOG'S and that works for me. People trim hedges for a reason, vineyards prune vines for a reason - to increase production of grapes, the final product. Go to an orchard or similar every winter and what are they doing? Pruning, to increase productivity and the health of the plant.

I know pruning isn't defoliating but defoliation is another option in plant management along with light, water and fertilizer. I have a lot of respect for people who are willing to experiment and trial different techniques. Farmers have been doing it for 1000's of years and continuing.

 

[AfroSheep]

This thread is awesome, i think im gonna put this mass plucking into action, have been doing it slowly atm, without being sure if i should or not, but now i will def go out there and even the canopy and get more light penetration happening

Great thread A+
Peace n Pot

 

[Snuff]

What stage of growth did you take the leaves during?
It appears that you took only leaves on the apical shoots and not under the screen. Is this the case?

What kind of strain is it, (sat or ind) and how much does it typically grow at this stage?

Your grow looks legit, it's possible that the plant you have is just very sensitive.

On the bright side of things they still look healthy, if just a bit delayed. In the past when I have stunted plants from taking leaves (but I took way more than you) the yield was fine provided it wasn't pre-stretch, it just took a bit longer.

Thanks for coming and sharing your experience.

You can check my grow journal, the link is in my signature.

I cut leaves above the scrog on day 50 from the seed. And did the same below the scrog on day 56.

 

[ShroomDr]

From what I've read/seen posted here, deffo and its results are strain dependent. My plants(bag seed) are like my face was in my late teens. As soon as I cut all that shit off it grows back more full and bushier within the week.

Some other guys with the pricey beans aren't getting as good a luck it seems...regardless...I'm a "plucker" for life now.

My exact conclusions. This doesnt work well in veg with either of my BOG phenos, but works well with my 5 strawberryDF'2, LemonG, and a homemade pheno.

One thing is for sure, if youve never removed any fan leaves, and then remove 80% in one sitting, odds are your gonna get a stall.

If you gradually remove leaves, say 20% today, another 30% of the remaining a few days later, and maybe 1/2 of the remaining 8-10 days after the initial removal, most plants show no i'll effect.

I grow vertical, so my top buds keep at least 1/2 their large fan leaves (they arent blocking anything). I also train everything to a 'bamboo stake and zip tie trellis', any fan leaf not blocking direct light stays.

As far as plants showing poor results in veg, i feel i need to keep the fan leaves to 'feed the stretch', so they are only removed (gradually) after that period.

 

[StealthDragon]

I did a heavy defoil the last week of flower and it really made all the bud sites purple up. At first just top buds that were getting direct light were purple, but after a few defoliations I noticed that budsites that got direct light would purple over nite, I had rock hard buds all the way to the bottom, which I would also attribute to strain and lighting though.(gdp under 1k)



there she is a few days before chop. sorry I don't have better pics, there's a few more good dried shots in my albums though. Just relating my experiance and I can't really comment on increase in yields (but I did get a great yield)

 

[Happy Haole]

In response to your analogy, how much good do ten solar panels all stacked on top of eachother do?

If each was a panel by Konarka (which is more like leaves because leaves don't stop all light from passing thru...unlike what you're saying), it would do just fine. And leaves grow alternating for a reason.....not stacked on top of each other. What ya got now?

 

[bs0]

If each was a panel by Konarka (which is more like leaves because leaves don't stop all light from passing thru...unlike what you're saying), it would do just fine. And leaves grow alternating for a reason.....not stacked on top of each other. What ya got now?

In order to photosynthesize a leaf needs to *absorb* light. Each time a leaf absorbs light it is now unavailable to any subsequent leaf.To insinuate that it is feasible for all leaves to work equally as efficiently whether stacked or not is simply false. That's not reasonable at all.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

In order to photosynthesize a leaf needs to *absorb* light. Each time a leaf absorbs light it is now unavailable to any subsequent leaf.To insinuate that it is feasible for all leaves to work equally as efficiently whether stacked or not is simply false. That's not reasonable at all.

he said 'will do just fine', not will 'work equally as efficiently'.
he also said leaves do not grow 'stacked', but their placement alternates.



I don't understand what the fuck all the speculative analogous arguing is still over.

Some methods of leaf pruning work well on some plants in some garden paradigms... 'nuff said, nothing to argue over.


I guess if you really want to get technical, then we should formulate some equation instead of giving vague loose analogies.

The equations should be based on things like:
What percentage of the leaves below is shaded?
How much photon density is lost between the distance of the leaf to the distance of the lower leaves?
How many photons can a given leaf actually use over a given time period?
How many usable photons can pass thru a leaf at a given photon density?

Also, I kind of like the idea of selectively pruning a small percentage of the 'shading' leaves, and doing so over time, because of the following:
Growth is not stunted significantly.
Lighting to leaf surface ratio can be somewhat improved.
Some plants seem to have some 'invigorating response' defense mechanism as has been previously speculated, and selectively pruning a few 'unnecessary' leaves might stimulate that response in plants which are capable of that response.


There is plenty of experimentation which can be carried out by those wishing to play around with training and pruning techniques, and the more experiential information gets gathered, the more complete the understanding of those techniques will be. Snappy comebacks to unsubstantiated speculation are as useless and out of place as the unsubstantiated speculation itself is.

 

[huntingbb]

he said 'will do just fine', not will 'work equally as efficiently'.
he also said leaves do not grow 'stacked', but their placement alternates.



I don't understand what the fuck all the speculative analogous arguing is still over.

Some methods of leaf pruning work well on some plants in some garden paradigms... 'nuff said, nothing to argue over.


I guess if you really want to get technical, then we should formulate some equation instead of giving vague loose analogies.

The equations should be based on things like:
What percentage of the leaves below is shaded?
How much photon density is lost between the distance of the leaf to the distance of the lower leaves?
How many photons can a given leaf actually use over a given time period?
How many usable photons can pass thru a leaf at a given photon density?

Also, I kind of like the idea of selectively pruning a small percentage of the 'shading' leaves, and doing so over time, because of the following:
Growth is not stunted significantly.
Lighting to leaf surface ratio can be somewhat improved.
Some plants seem to have some 'invigorating response' defense mechanism as has been previously speculated, and selectively pruning a few 'unnecessary' leaves might stimulate that response in plants which are capable of that response.


There is plenty of experimentation which can be carried out by those wishing to play around with training and pruning techniques, and the more experiential information gets gathered, the more complete the understanding of those techniques will be. Snappy comebacks to unsubstantiated speculation are as useless and out of place as the unsubstantiated speculation itself is.

you describe several good questions indeed - now that's the spirit.

duh!! welcome to the defol thread.

Your just arguing LST vs HST application of same technique - and your reasoning _seems_ to be the same to me - ResPekT

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

you describe several good questions indeed - now that's the spirit.

duh!! welcome to the defol thread.

Your just arguing LST vs HST application of same technique - and your reasoning _seems_ to be the same to me - ResPekT

and that the technique being practiced is not actually defoliation, merely leaf pruning. I've only seen one example of actual defoliation this entire thread, but I've seen a half dozen or more different techniques of leaf pruning.

 

[redspaghetti]

works pretty damn good for me as well, i think all strains could benefit if you do it right, i had some ssh hates it when i strip her more than once in flower, she got completely stunted, but madness on the other hand, when i strip her once she get all leafy on me, strip her 3 times during flower cycle and she threw out double the bud sites or mroe ...

this is after sometime after the defoli in dirt

more bud site

this one got stunted but bounced back

im still learning but so far im loving it, they gonna get a good prune again next week, advices to this technique learn your strains

cheers,
red.

 

[Relentless]

just defoliated my ladies, they are just beginning their 3rd week of flower.. defoliated several times in veg..

 

[AfroSheep]

I just went and litrally trimmed 90% of the fan leaves off my veging plants, hope i didn't go to overboard and stunt growth, but can only live and learn, and thats what its all about, Trial and error. If it stunts them will be kinda annoying but due to my circumstances cant let them get to massive anyway, so could be a good thing.

Ill update in a week or so when i find out how they are going .

Peace n Pot

 

[SCROG McDuck]

works pretty damn good for me as well, i think all strains could benefit if you do it right, i had some ssh hates it when i strip her more than once in flower, she got completely stunted, but madness on the other hand, when i strip her once she get all leafy on me, strip her 3 times during flower cycle and she threw out double the bud sites or mroe ...

this is after sometime after the defoli in dirt

more bud site

this one got stunted but bounced back

im still learning but so far im loving it, they gonna get a good prune again next week, advices to this technique learn your strains

cheers,
red.

Have you used this verticle scrog method before, RS?
You're just tucking them back in? Looks like that screen
is keeping them in check..

 

[huntingbb]

and that the technique being practiced is not actually defoliation, merely leaf pruning. I've only seen one example of actual defoliation this entire thread, but I've seen a half dozen or more different techniques of leaf pruning.

Your absolutely right in that this is mostly 'PARTIAL defoliation' and there are plenty of search results for this. However 'PARTIAL defoliation' is just a subset of all defoliation techniques.

OK!

Now that we can agree, one more disclaimer - i've read up on you - love a lot of what you do - you have some good cognitive skills (rare) as well as a good bit of experience cutivating. Please try to quit being so pedantic? It's a little embarassing - you've your sticky on what your best at!! (assumption)

So how do you selectively defoliate when you do?

I notice there seems to be at least 3-4 kinds of leafs over the life cycle of the plant - the big big ass fan leaves, these have long stems that take the leaf away from the stalk. there are smaller of the same, these seem to stay near the stalk, and get caught up in the middle of the buds. There seems to be leaves in the bud itself - sorta intrinsicly intermingled. Can't think of the fourth, sorry!

So while i should have skipped this on my last flowering run - it hurt me from keeping them so small - did a sog, was amazing they quit growing tall - i'm curious if the yeild is totally farked, but since its only my second grow and i'm still in the process of figuring out what i'm doing we can skip any conclusions other than it seems likely i should have not bothered. Went right from clones to flower - no darkness, high heat for the first cpl weeks and a half, etc. (massive overnute too i believe).

Round 3 - coco - i think 4 plants in a 4x4 or 6x6 under my light as a 1k (will veg as 600w for 14-30 days).

Oh, yeah~!~

I'm transplanting from soil to coco (just skip it - its happening), and plan to flower in 5-7Gal buckets, and would like a 'real' yeild - 1+ lb (1k light for flowering it looks like) - growroom plans in my sig.. I am open to any advice you care to give - using rezdog's 'the recipe' for simplicity for the next 3 or so grows.

I will definately pull leaves that:

a. block other leaves
b. block bud sites
c. got eaten back up by the plant for some reason (yellowing, or older damaged growth if she gets mad and i get her happy later)

Any others you would pull?

Flowering with CMH produced way too many leaves, as does LED to my buddies 'mom' (his round one, its SO cute!). I will have the cmh back up for veg shortly, am awaiting your reply.