Ec Rising, Ph Lowering ...

[t33to]

Hello all

Normally I have my EC Lowering and my PH Rising, now for some reason I have the opposite. The plants still look great coming into the 6h week, only slightly yellowing of the leaves which from my experience is natural.

It's an 8-9 week strain in rock wool flock 1 gallon pots, catch and run in a flood and drain table, watered twice daily automatically 15 mins before the lights come on, and then 6 hours later during their day cycle, feed is lucas flower formula + Liquid Gold 2ml/g (humic acid) + cal/mag 2ml/g.

My EC hit 3.12 today which is the highest I've ever seen a plant tolerate and not look like death, I topped the rez up with some fresh water and it evened out at around 2.12ec with a PH of 6.1 and that's where I'm going to leave it until I understand what is going on.

What is happening when EC is rising and PH is lowering?
Please advise.

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

Ok listen....

What is happening when EC is rising and PH is lowering?

When your EC is rising, and your ph is lowering, your plants are being overfed.

When your EC lowers, and PH rises, you are under feeding.

When it is stable, you are dialed in.

The EC is rising because your plants are drinking more water then eating nutes, so your water level is lower, with the same amount of nutes, meaning higher EC.

Thats it, some expalin it better then me but I hope you undestand.

 

[t33to]

Ok listen....

What is happening when EC is rising and PH is lowering?

When your EC is rising, and your ph is lowering, your plants are being overfed.

When your EC lowers, and PH rises, you are under feeding.

When it is stable, you are dialed in.

The EC is rising because your plants are drinking more water then eating nutes, so your water level is lower, with the same amount of nutes, meaning higher EC.

Thats it, some expalin it better then me but I hope you undestand.

That's what I was told as well, but if I am overfeeding my plants shouldn't they be showing signs of that? They look great to me. Most of the leaves except for a few on the very far sides of the lamps have some leaf tip curl, other than that they look great.

But I have dialed the food back now, so I'll try that and see what happens. Thank you.

 

[buddin_904]

chill out on the nitrogen??? seems like they dont want any anymore....

 

[buddin_904]

ive read also that the pH will drop drastically in cases of rootrot.....but EC rising doesnt really correlate with this....IMO sounds like too much nitrogen for them.....

 

[PuReKnOwLeDgE]

They are not burning, but that does not mean the mixture isn't to strong for them. I would rather read my reservoir then get to the point where plants show negative signs.

 

[erwingruber]

In a post from Hydrosun i read that the plants @ the end of their life stop drinking nutes and the EC goes for the skies .
Maybe is time for a flush.
or listen @ PuReKnOwLeDgE and follow his words

 

[DHF]

No offense......but......

No offense......but......

No such thing as "stable" ph and ppm levels in hydro Pure......Not without some type of dosing equipment that`ll do topoff`s and add backs to your rez automatically after each feed.........

As plants eat their nutes , ph rises ....period....gradually if things are dialed , but nonetheless in a dialed setup ppm`s will always drop and ph will rise... Pure`s right in that your plants aren`t eating which is causing nutrient concentrations to skyrocket while causing ph to drop.....

Just because they`re tolerating the outrageous amount of ppm`s you`re shovin up their ass and don`t look too bad , just shows how resilient your strain/variety is that you`re growing.....more than likely a more indica dominant variety IME.......

Ph will also drop off the charts from the beginnings of root rot as was said above , though it sounds more likely that your ppm`s are too high due to the health of your plants at 6+ weeks into a 8-9 week cycle......

Less is always more with feedjuice.......For many many yrs I never fed over 750 ppm`s , or 1.5 EC at .5 conversion with dialed results......

If you had a way of topping off with R/O water via a float valve in your rez , the last week or so of the plant`s life the ppm`s could be dwindled down to almost nothing while allowing the plant to cannibalize itself and use up all residual stored nutes for an almost perfect finish before choptime......

Proper drying and curing takes care of the rest......

Good luck t33to , and good call Pure.......DHF.......

 

[fatigues]

Just because they`re tolerating the outrageous amount of ppm`s you`re shovin up their ass and don`t look too bad , just shows how resilient your strain/variety is that you`re growing.....more than likely a more indica dominant variety IME.......

While your current PPM is not necessarily "outrageous" and while DHF could perhaps be a little more tactful in the above advice... Well... he still nails it in the above passage.

Reduce your present nute concentration by about 10% and observe carefully what happens. If the PPM/pH swing levels off (somewhat) - then you are getting closer to the ideal nute concentration for the current stage of your grow. Smaller baby steps afterwards and watchign your plants like a hawk will help you dial it in.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

ive read also that the pH will drop drastically in cases of rootrot.....but EC rising doesnt really correlate with this....IMO sounds like too much nitrogen for them.....

i was gonna say root rot too but what pk said is also true...

check your roots if they are mushy and brown that whats happening need to get on it right away...

 

[DHF]

Fatigues......Can`t know where your world would suggest 10% less on an almost 1600 ppm solution for a so-called "fix" for proper plant development/swellage in late flower on any pot plant I`ve ever grown , so please explain............

I mean .......the plants are at 6 weeks bloom and shut down , drinkin water to survive , and starvin themselves of nutrients due to concentrations being off the charts for their needs/requirements causing ph to plummet and cause further lockouts if not corrected.....Need I say more ?.......

Tactfully.....DHF...........

 

[3eyes]

I've got the same problem ph is dropping ec is coming down slowly mainly due to when i top up the res, before every top up i check ph and ec if the ec is 1 or above they get just water at a ph of 7 which brings the ph back to about 5.5 but next day ph has dropped again to 4.3, i'm on day 21 of flower and the plants took nearly a week to show deficiencies i'm pretty certain that i've got root rot starting i'm thinking of adding H2O2 to the res to help keep it under control any body tried this?

 

[fatigues]

Fatigues......Can`t know where your world would suggest 10% less on an almost 1600 ppm solution for a so-called "fix" for proper plant development/swellage in late flower on any pot plant I`ve ever grown , so please explain............

The plant is not showing any signs of nutrient deficiency or burning. Massive changes are clearly not called for where the plant is not showing signs of stress. If it is being overfed -- it's not being overfed by that much. We know this, because if it was, the grower would be seeing signs of nutrient burning.

So, despite your colorful language that the grower is shoving WAY too many nutes up the plant's ass with "outrageous" nute strengths -- we know that's not true. If it was, in fact, outrageous, he'd be seeing that result in the leaves of the plant. But he isn't seeing that because it isn't outrageously strong.

When the plant is carrying on more or less happily, if you feel you must make a change, make a small change until you see some improvement in nutrient uptake.

 

[DHF]

1556 ppm`s is indeed "outrageous" fatigues.......for any plant......Clearly the ph droppin and ec through the roof proves just that......

By his own admission t33to said these are the highest nutrient concentrations "he`s" ever seen on a plant without it being on the brink of death....

For proper nutrient uptake using the rockwool flock , the ph needs to be in the mid-5`s and gradually rise as they eat their nutes and be topped off/nutes added back before hittin 6.0 IME......

He topped his rez off and ppm`s were still in the 1100 range with ph "still" too high at 6.1 , so that again shows me with proof positive that his ppm`s still need ta be dropped so the plants will start eating again.......simple.....

Not "minor changes" fatigues , though no disrespect for your opinion....so.......Not tryin ta argue about something that`s plain as the nose on your face........

It`s "Hydro 101".......Go do some research on nutrient uptake and ph fluctuations caused from it.....

Peace...DHF............

 

[mikeross]

When the plant is carrying on more or less happily, if you feel you must make a change, make a small change until you see some improvement in nutrient uptake.

I don't have a lot of experience with hydroponics but I will chime in on what I did have to do to correct my lockout issues.

I noticed a big PH drop and ppm rising one morning in my res. Adjusted and did more research on here. Came to the conclusion is was either lockout or rot. Roots look good but that 1400ppm at .05 was the issue. I dropped it a lot to 1000ppm and for 2 days I experience a rise in ppm as water levels dropped. Since I was at the end of week 6 I decided to just drop the ppm's way low. After doing a partial change it came out to 650... The very next day the plants started to drink their nutes again. It did not take long to fix actually. If I only dropped my nute down 10% of the time and wait to see results I would have never been able to get them feeding for that few days before I started a flush.

I also would like to add that my plants looked amazing throughout the entire grow until the end of week 6 when everything went to shit literally overnight. One day they are looking banging and eating and the very next day I see slightly burn and rising ppm and dropping PH.

Again I dont have the knowledge to back up why this worked for me. I saw a couple post were guys were dropping their nutes in half to correct these lockout issues... Didnt solve the issue until a drastic cut was made. Its probably a case to case issue but it worked in my case.

I noticed you mentioned you had some yellow leaves in the end of week 5? Is that normal with your strain? My plants at the end of week 6 looked great, it took 1 night to give them a good tip burn.

good luck though bro. I honestly am not giving you advise... just stating what worked for me. I am not sure if dropping my ec levels that low was the magic number to get my plants eating again. I do know that at 1000 it didnt work and 600 it corrected itself. This is where I take some notes and experiment for the next round.

 

[DHF]

That`s what I like about Mike Ross.....Tell`s the truth without any ego involved as he experiences and overcomes "hiccups"..........and overcome em he has.......It only gets better from "on the job training" cuz Mike did his homework BEFORE jumpin into fast hydro feet first............

Point blank it took Mike dropping ppm`s to less than half of what he was running due to research before ph was adjusted and the plants began eatin their nutes.......again.......

As he`s testified from "hands on" experience , the plants will only eat their nutes within a strict parameter of ph and ppm levels along with rootzone temps dialed below 70 degrees.......If ambient temps in the room is too high , it`ll make the plants sweat/transpire more and get nutrient uptake/absorption outta whack , concentrating ppm`s and droppin ph as well , but that`s another variable in the equation...........

As I said above , more indica dominant varieties will tolerate higher nutrient concentrations before showing signs of stress due to the landrace environment they`re derived from in semi arrid areas with harsh surroundings .........Does "Not" mean it`s good for em......

All about "the perfect environment"...the little things....Homework....

Peace..DHF..............

 

[ibjamming]

That`s what I like about Mike Ross.....Tell`s the truth without any ego involved as he experiences and overcomes "hiccups"..........and overcome em he has.......It only gets better from "on the job training" cuz Mike did his homework BEFORE jumpin into fast hydro feet first............

Point blank it took Mike dropping ppm`s to less than half of what he was running due to research before ph was adjusted and the plants began eatin their nutes.......again.......

As he`s testified from "hands on" experience , the plants will only eat their nutes within a strict parameter of ph and ppm levels along with rootzone temps dialed below 70 degrees.......If ambient temps in the room is too high , it`ll make the plants sweat/transpire more and get nutrient uptake/absorption outta whack , concentrating ppm`s and droppin ph as well , but that`s another variable in the equation...........

As I said above , more indica dominant varieties will tolerate higher nutrient concentrations before showing signs of stress due to the landrace environment they`re derived from in semi arrid areas with harsh surroundings .........Does "Not" mean it`s good for em......

All about "the perfect environment"...the little things....Homework....

Peace..DHF..............

I really like what you said...and I agree.

Everyone needs to remember that EVERY plant is different. Some like it hot, some like it cold, some like a lot of nutes, some don't, some like high pH, some like low pH. The trick is finding what YOUR plants like. What MY plant liked is probably NOT what your plants want. Each has to do their own experimenting to find the sweet spot for their own plants.

And remember too...if you're growing a lot of different types, unless you "dial in" everything for each individual plant...some of them will NOT be as happy as they could be. I use the same nute mix for all my plants. I usually have at least 4 different strains. Some inevitably will show a deficiency...while others look wonderful. Just like people, you can't make everyone happy all the time. Unless you have clones. I vary my pH up and down trying to keep everyone as happy as possible.

 

[3eyes]

I've got the same problem ph is dropping ec is coming down slowly mainly due to when i top up the res, before every top up i check ph and ec if the ec is 1 or above they get just water at a ph of 7 which brings the ph back to about 5.5 but next day ph has dropped again to 4.3, i'm on day 21 of flower and the plants took nearly a week to show deficiencies i'm pretty certain that i've got root rot starting i'm thinking of adding H2O2 to the res to help keep it under control any body tried this?

Rite i've sussed out how my problem has come about, when i was changing the res i noticed that the pump wasn't moving much water on further inspection i found small pieces of root that had broken off blocking the pump and rotting therefore lowering the ph and causing lockout, i have changed the pump for a clean 1 and this time filled the res by hand instead of the hose pipe (thats how the small broken root came to be) i'm not sure if what i have corrected is too little to late or not but i'll post updates soon i hope this might help with your problem to.

 

[DHF]

Hey IBJ......Since most strains/varieties grown these days are at best poly-hybrids with many genes expressed in their makeup , the obvious solution to keep ph as well as ppm`s in check is to run lower concentrations across the board so lockouts and deficiencies don`t have a chance to rear their ugly heads.......

Sure........No two varieties will uptake at the same rate but......that`s always been my reason for monocropping 1 strain at a time to "dial" their requirements.......

In all honesty and experience IBJ , rather than some like it hot , and some like it cold , the truth of the matter is that in hydro setups nutrient uptake of ANY plant is governed by ph fluctuations from 5.2 -5.8 as they eat their nutes , and with ppm`s well over 1000 and almost 1600 as has been noted above , will shutdown nutrient uptake and they`ll start drinking water only in "survival mode" that concentrates nutrients and causes ph to plummet.......

Anything below or above this ph range causes potential lockouts without adjustments.....Coco will continue unaffected up until 6.2 and stays healthier in the 6.0 range , but that`s a different mule compared to other hydro mediums.......

As you said , some plants handle higher concentrations better as in my statement above about more indica dominant varieties doin better with said higher concentrations before showing signs of deficiencies......but.....it`s not that they like it....they`re just tolerating it up to a point , and then they`ll shutdown guaranteed with enough time in elevated ppm`s as in t33to`s as well as Mike Ross`s situations.......

My `ol Bro Heathie Robinson showed me well over a decade ago about using lower ppm`s across the board for the win while keeping the plants from riding a rollercoaster of nutes and additives along with ph up and down trying to chase the plant`s uptake requirements.........

I`ll say this one more time.....As plants eat their nutes in active hydro setups PH rises....period.....once PH approaches 6.0 , add back/topoff , or swap out rez......simple...babyshit.......

Less is more....and saves a shit ton of cash from usin less juice......My 2 cents from all those yrs....

Peace......DHF...........

 

[*mistress*]

fun topics!

1. cation exchange...
2. water stress....
3. ph & buffers...

ph...
the form of nitrogen applied affects the resulting ph, as plants assimilate in-organic ions, they expel hydrogen ions, hydroxyl groups, or bicarbonates...

n03- in ferts make ph rise...nh4+ in ferts make ph decrease... that is why most hydro ferts use 9:1 - 5:1 n03-:nh4+... to buffer the solution...

plants also exchange ions (cation exchange) based on the internal concentration & external concentrations of elements. the graph is not linear between the elements...

example:
for every 1 molecule of calcium (ca++) absorbed by the roots, the roots expell 2 molecules of hydrogen (h+)... ph is scale of hydrogen atoms in solution..., so... may make ph rise... K+ (potassium) assimilation releases 1 molecule of h+ (hydrogen)...

search for thred "cation exchange capacity in coco"...coco forum...

maybe measuring the run-off water too. measure media ph, too...maybe

ec of the roots (inside) may be higher than outside of the roots - but if that gradient outside of the roots becomes greater than the internal concentration, the plant cannot process the nutrient solution... maybe...

maybe, roots exchange ions by osmosis..internal & external pressures.of root & concentrates in water.

ph meters are wothless. maybe most. especially if not cleaned & calibbrated almost wkly... op never gave type of ec meter used, either... they, too, can be worthless, as certain elements only deflect the meter by certain amount, maybe giving erroneous #'s...

water stress...

plants seem capable of uptaking & transporting water independent of nutrients... they use much more water than nutients. a typical planty is ~45% oxygen, ~45% carbon, ~5% hydrogen, ~5% nutrients...

plants also transpire thru-out most of the lyte-on period - using substantial amount of water, but not an equal amount of fertilizers...

example:
a 3x3 plant can transpire over a gallon of water in 24hr... but will not consume 700-1000ppm of combined water-soluble fertilizer, held in the water, or even close...

so... that leaves less water & more concentration of fertilizers... this why 'water-add-backs' = good... or, feed-water-feed, though many dont use this simple teck... w/ out adding more water to soution, but adding solution-to-solution, the planty does not have enough water to properly transpire... water stress...

trans-evaporation also very important for calcium transport - as calcium is heavy metal that moves in plant w/ water, but is immobile otherwise, mostly... the yellowing of the leaves can be start of calcium deficiency in water-stressed plant... or iron, or magnesium deficiencies, which l00k similar... but can be diagnosed, if read planty symptoms correctly...

the plant desires 100% humidity, kru&ty taught 70%, but 50-60% ok, as long as keep stomata open & lots of water avialable to roots. they draw h20 up & out thru-out the leaves during lyte-on period. thru most of day... though the stomata do close during day, & can be forced to close if under heat or wind stress... vpd, etc...

ppms/ec...

ppms/ec difficult, as that VERY cultivar specific... some plants use very large amounts of calcium, magnesium & iron -especially during flowering. during veg may not require them in large amounts... some can go thru entire season 700, or less ppm... maybe foliar of mag during elongation (stretch) as they draw it up from lower parts to terminal flowers...

maybe, some need lots nitrogen, some can take up to 500-600ppms of potassium alone...

type of meter (EC/CF) used to make assesments important, too, as there are @ least 3 different calibration standards even then, meters only deflect certain elements by certain percentages...

3.5ec, or 2500ppm is target sought by some gardeners...

if LOTS of water supplied, the higher concentration of ferts - & cal, mag & iron fed separately - higher ppm/ec make for more sugars produced in the plant. more sugars produced in the plant & higher concentration of elements maybe make for more dry fruit matter, @ harvest... more water & lower ppms gives more water in the fruit. maybe...just

ph maybe ability of certain elements to

1. be soluble
2. not precipitate
3. be present in adequate amounts w/out antagonisms in solution, &/or media...

some elements become very un-avaialble over certain ph, some un-avaialable @ lower ph...

since most "hydro-type" nutrients have n03- as major source of nitrogen, the ph should rise, as nitrates make ph rise, after exchanges... maybe adjust 5.0-5.5, or more acid... unless have more than 5:1 n03-:nh4+, as the nh4+ will make ph fall... si also make ph rise, or other ph for that tomato cultivar...

maybe feed cal-mag separately,... teknafl0re mag-i-ca for 2 forms of calcium, 2 forms of iron & mag.. label state mix w/ regular feed, but maybe fed alone... maybe

calcium antagonist & easily precipiates when mixed w/ sulfates & phosphates... may not be easy to view, if @ all. the precipitation can be fine, or miscible...

feeding low ppms/ec good, too!

providing LOTS more water than ferts = ... if dehumidify, can view this phenom by how much dehumidified in 24hr... maybe ~ 3/4 amount of water aplied...

if certain cultivar do ok w/ higher ppm, maybe ok. it not required & can be harmful. esp if dont view deficiencies immediately...
once iron, or mag or cal deficiencies start - it is maybe difficult to correct... esp if flowering
humic acids may help get the iron, cal, mn, zn thru, chelated...

OP, states they are only in 1 GALLON CONTAINERS!... they can only handle so much ferts becase they have very small root systems (1 GAL MAX)... not enough media to BUFFER the solution, or to hold onto to cations - not enough water present to hold anions...

there is no room to store the energy created by making food!... different for TREES in larger gal containers, w/ big root systems just as large as the canopy... small plants can easily be OVER-WATERED, too... which makes phosphorus, nitrates, sulfates less avaialble, because they easily leach away...

water...
water is water - w/out high concentration of nutrients. high dissolved solids in water = less water, more solids.... plants need more water than ferts.

nutrients...

keep it simple method is:
...1-2 tsp/gal gh ferts (fnb, 3-part, bio-thrive, maxi...@ instructions on label).

...maybe feed "cal-mag" separately...

...small amount of humic acids helps chelate heavy-metal micro-nutrients. only need small amount of humic acid, though... maybe 1/4-1/2 tsp/gal...maybe

...keep ph under 5.8 (input). check run-off. check media. get avg of the 3... adjust back down...maybe

...gh fnb, shake well. cal maybe @ bottom & needs to get into pour into measure device. maybe mix maxi 1-2hrs b4 feed, so it fully dissolve...

used to make more dry matter & sweeter fruit, can be applied for good tek... or..can decrease fruit...can cause water-stress & calcium-deficiency, maybe...

if ec rising/ph lowering...
water -> more... less nutrients. water add-backs,... ph-adjusted to acid 5.0-5.5.., or whatever ph the cultivars thrive @.

hope this help.