Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[TruthOrLie]

i see there has been discussion about grey mold / botrytis



VG

seems the only people open for discussion on botrytis are people who don't have success with this technique.

would be much more sound advice if grey mold was discussed on page 1 of this thread.

just trying to keep shit solid.

 

[GanjaPharma]

now that i have completed a few harvests using more aggressive defoliation and observed a few others in our group that have used Heavy defoliation, I thought i would add a few remarks to help guide anyone about to try this for the first time.

If you read my previous post you will see that i am quite happy with the extra yeild and density with HDT during veg and flower vs my previous "late flowering" defoliation, accompanied by lolipoping. The effect of Heavy Defoliation as a growth regulator is profound. On plants that were defoliated during the first 2 weeks of flowering I saw almost NO stretch at all, the plants react as if treated with a chemical growth regulator. this could be very helpful to a sativa grower, with headroom issues....but damaging to someone growing indica dominant strains, shorter to start with, unless it is planned for in advance. I kinda like a little stretch and have amended my defoliation schedule accordingly. like everything else, there seems to be a middle balance that is unique to every individual variety and situation.
defoliation during veg seems to encourage a ton of nodal development, done too early (5-6") , it seems to stunt the plants too much. too late (right before flowering) and you dont get those "branches full of nodes"
also:
the advice i took when i began HDT a few grows back was "do not prune any nodes at all" and I will agree that the popcorn buds DO swell considerably when heavily defoliated. However...even big popcorn, is still popcorn. I share the opinion of many growers when i say that i would sacrifice 10 oz of popcorn for 5 oz of "bag ready" buds.
so i have also started to prune wee sucker buds during week 2 of flowering....not lollipoping mind you, but i do remove anything that looks pathetic in mine eyes.

so my new schedule goes something like this:
no Heavy defoliation until my clones are at least a foot tall and well developed. then i pluck em completely. two weeks later and you cant tell they have been touched, they get another good pluck. then no more defoliation until after flowering. this seems to give me a good balance of nodal density and vegetative growth.
I dont defoliate at all during the 1st 2 weeks of flowering. then i hit em HARD. and take nodes that offend me (i grow vert so they are mainly in the middle of the plant...if growing horizontally, these would be the bottom buds).
four weeks in (when i start with my p/k boost) i hit em again...and from then on i see no more fan leaves trying to emerge.
six weeks in, I take scissors and "pre trim" the colas, leaving some leaf but getting as close to the bud as possible without damage. this seems to help ripen any buds that are still shaded.

other growers in our collective have remarked on the varied response of different strains. some seem to stress waaay out, herming when defoliated late in flower. others exhibit no stress at all. something to be considered when trying this on a new cultivar.
overall, I think HDT is the best tool i have added to my arsenal in the last decade. a powerful growth/stretch regulator as good as bushmaster, or an equivalent poison.
Once again, this glorious plant has let me in on a few more of her secrets. like everything it's up to the grower to strike a perfect balance that works for them.

 

[RealHard]

Hi, Delta. I've read like the first 50 pages and defoliated at 24 days 12/12. I also use Jack's Hydro. Do you use the Calcium Nitrate from them too? I do and I got a little bit of yellow on the tips and started using less. I started using 1/2 tsp. hydro and only 1/4 tsp of cal nitrate. Then I talked to my buddy and he said no to use equal cause that's what Peter's recommends. I'm getting a little bit of lockout ,I think now. Gonna switch out the nutes in a little bit cause my ppms are rising. I haven't changed my bucket in 2 weeks, which I've never done but, I have stuff all tied down in there. Your girls are stellar! Never mind. I found your thread. I'll be tuning in.

 

[bs0]

seems the only people open for discussion on botrytis are people who don't have success with this technique.

would be much more sound advice if grey mold was discussed on page 1 of this thread.

just trying to keep shit solid.

Open page 1.
Scroll to bottom.
Notice my mention of the possibility.

Now. What I would like from you.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Pictures shouldn't be that difficult right? Since what happened to you was such a terrible life-changing event and you are so proud to bring it up here over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over I know that you took pictures right?

You demand a side by side. I went half-way and showed you my setup. Now show me the mold. Post up the pictures or seriously STFU and go away.

Here is your post from 8 days ago:

LOL. SWAG research!

I'll give you points on that...

...no one demanded anyone do anything.

I think it was suggested that someone do something to show more concrete results.

Maybe I will get off my ass and do it myself, when I have some. I don't right now.

I'm too busy arguing opinions of scientific semantics anonymously on the internet.

Where did you state 8 days ago that you got mold? It sounds very directly as though you had done nothing at this point.

Here is another:

Why would someone who failed a technique detail what they did to fail?

Do you want to copy a failure?

When did I ever say the technique failed or didn't work?

My stance is grounded in the belief that _if_ defoliating increases yields, it is not by the mechanism of "providing more light to lower bud sites" but by something else.

My problems with this whole thread is several pages back I asked for input on what to do if the plant is showing deficiency. Should I continue to defoliate or should I fix the problem first? If you all are just removing damaged/burned leaves, then I don't see the benefit. Those leaves are on their way out already. If you are removing healthy leaves, then what do you do when the plant is unhealthy?

Then I thought about how everyone says they notice all these huge buds after removing leaves.

Wells guess what happens a week later into flowering? Your buds look BIGGER! Whether you defoliate or not.

Not one person in this thread has said "check out this side by side thread" or "check out what so_and_so says one page 1234 of this thread"

The responses in this thread overwhelmingly is "try it for yourself, if it doesn't work for you try something else."

Well I'm sorry if I've stunk up this whole thread. It just seems kind of incomplete.

People here keep offering anecdotal evidence and all empirical evidence offered which has detracted from this method is denied as having any application.

Now you still are talking as someone who has never done the technique. You are still asking what appear to be hypothetical questions. No mold yet!!! Lucky guy! But you did seem to learn new words: anecdotal, and empirical!

Lets see if there is more...

I mean, look how many times my post has been quoted/duplicated!

Why can't you quote someone showing success? With a demonstration possessing scientific soundness? Where someone who says it works shows temps/humidity/start-to-finish one plant defoliated, one plant not. Same container size, same nutes, same watering schedule?

Would you even water a defoliated plant the same as one with all its foliage? I doubt it.

If defoliating is so simple, I don't see why its so hard to put one plant next to another. One defoliated, one not.

I would conduct a test myself, but I hardly see a point considering you all would just tell me I screwed up somewhere else if you don't see the results you want to see.

Oh, and based on my own SWAG research, I _do not_ see a big difference between my last crop with no defoliation and this crop with.

...but my environmental conditions has changed greatly, so I don't put much value on my data.

WAIT ARE YOU SERIOUS. IN ONE DAY YOU HAVE DONE A FULL DEFOL CROP WITHOUT PICTURES??? OMG! But at least your lie is followed with '... but my room is shit and my data is crap' which is at least honest.

Lets continue...

Removing the upper fan leaves from the plant is a HUGE mistake.

Leaves help the plant transpire (breathe/release excess moisture).

When you remove the larger leaves from your upper budsites, you effectively limit the large cola's ability to regulate moisture properly.

Late in flowering, if your conditions have excess humidity/low temps/poor circulation YOU WILL SEE GREY MOLD begin to form.

This is not from the stem receding back into the cola, this is from the cola not being able to properly regulate internal moisture.

Make sure you have ample air flow, temps, and low humidity late in flower if you have defoliated the large colas.

OH MY GOD THE MOLD ??? But you haven't yet said it happened to you... is it still a secret?

Lets continue to follow your rambling contrived posts:

well, thats the difference between myself and many of the proponents of defoliation.

I give credit where credit is due.

Am I going to say that defoliation is the cause of my first EVER appearance of grey mold? No.

There are other factors contributing to the environmental conditions.

MAYBE the grey mold isn't solely from defoliation, but a combo effect that usually my plants are healthy enough to resist.

I'm not trying to denounce defoliation, I'm trying to gain an better understanding.

I can see how that might hurt the puny pellet dwelling in your noggin.

Now you say that mold has occured. In 5 days you have gone from never doing defol to having done an entire crop and having it go to crap due to mold issues that were obviously due to the defol that you never did. That in fact DOES hurt my 'puny pellet dwelling in my noggin'... Cause frankly you are a transparent liar and a complete idiot.

Despite the pain in my poor puny pellet, I will keep it up for one more post...

LOL.

Okay, so I try a method for the first time.

For the first time I get grey mold.

But that's because of my environmental conditions?

So it has nothing to do with the defoliation method?

Are you living in denial?

Just because you have ideal conditions for grey mold, or spider mites, or powder mildew to thrive does not mean you will get these diseases and pests.

The first line of defense is a healthy plant.

Learn to do the following before you post again:
Stop lying.
Grow.
Argue.
and
MAINTAIN A HEALTHY PLANT FOR GOD'S SAKE.

Sorry everyone else. Bad mood today and I have finally become completely sick of this idiot crapping up this thread with his lies.

 

[dramamine]

Can't remember which pages, but k33f repeatedly warned against taking leaves that protrude from formed buds, with chance of mold being the reason. It's all in the thread. Also, he said from the get-go that the technique should only be applied to perfectly healthy plants. Stressing unhealthy plants rarely ends well.

 

[Blunt_69]

now that i have completed a few harvests using more aggressive defoliation and observed a few others in our group that have used Heavy defoliation, I thought i would add a few remarks to help guide anyone about to try this for the first time.

If you read my previous post you will see that i am quite happy with the extra yeild and density with HDT during veg and flower vs my previous "late flowering" defoliation, accompanied by lolipoping. The effect of Heavy Defoliation as a growth regulator is profound. On plants that were defoliated during the first 2 weeks of flowering I saw almost NO stretch at all, the plants react as if treated with a chemical growth regulator. this could be very helpful to a sativa grower, with headroom issues....but damaging to someone growing indica dominant strains, shorter to start with, unless it is planned for in advance. I kinda like a little stretch and have amended my defoliation schedule accordingly. like everything else, there seems to be a middle balance that is unique to every individual variety and situation.
defoliation during veg seems to encourage a ton of nodal development, done too early (5-6") , it seems to stunt the plants too much. too late (right before flowering) and you dont get those "branches full of nodes"
also:
the advice i took when i began HDT a few grows back was "do not prune any nodes at all" and I will agree that the popcorn buds DO swell considerably when heavily defoliated. However...even big popcorn, is still popcorn. I share the opinion of many growers when i say that i would sacrifice 10 oz of popcorn for 5 oz of "bag ready" buds.
so i have also started to prune wee sucker buds during week 2 of flowering....not lollipoping mind you, but i do remove anything that looks pathetic in mine eyes.

so my new schedule goes something like this:
no Heavy defoliation until my clones are at least a foot tall and well developed. then i pluck em completely. two weeks later and you cant tell they have been touched, they get another good pluck. then no more defoliation until after flowering. this seems to give me a good balance of nodal density and vegetative growth.
I dont defoliate at all during the 1st 2 weeks of flowering. then i hit em HARD. and take nodes that offend me (i grow vert so they are mainly in the middle of the plant...if growing horizontally, these would be the bottom buds).
four weeks in (when i start with my p/k boost) i hit em again...and from then on i see no more fan leaves trying to emerge.
six weeks in, I take scissors and "pre trim" the colas, leaving some leaf but getting as close to the bud as possible without damage. this seems to help ripen any buds that are still shaded.

other growers in our collective have remarked on the varied response of different strains. some seem to stress waaay out, herming when defoliated late in flower. others exhibit no stress at all. something to be considered when trying this on a new cultivar.
overall, I think HDT is the best tool i have added to my arsenal in the last decade. a powerful growth/stretch regulator as good as bushmaster, or an equivalent poison.
Once again, this glorious plant has let me in on a few more of her secrets. like everything it's up to the grower to strike a perfect balance that works for them.

interesting.Ok fair enough. I like the way you laid that out clear concise...

 

[bs0]

Well I've gave this leaf plucking a shot I plucked every big leaf I could find first at 2 weeks in veg on my under current XL8 and then at 4 weeks and then fliped them and let me tell you they blew up every bit of 3 ft a round now I just started week 3 of flower and took every leaf of exept the little ones on the bud stems then I got carried away and attacked 2 sog tables out of 4 just starting week 4 of flower so I'll see what happens but let me tell ya they look naked after wards I'm nerves I hope it works we will know in about 5 weeks I'll post some pics of the massacre later today so stay tuned

First try just take it easy man! You can always remove more leaves but you can never attach what is on the floor.

 

[bs0]

now that i have completed a few harvests using more aggressive defoliation and observed a few others in our group that have used Heavy defoliation, I thought i would add a few remarks to help guide anyone about to try this for the first time.

If you read my previous post you will see that i am quite happy with the extra yeild and density with HDT during veg and flower vs my previous "late flowering" defoliation, accompanied by lolipoping. The effect of Heavy Defoliation as a growth regulator is profound. On plants that were defoliated during the first 2 weeks of flowering I saw almost NO stretch at all, the plants react as if treated with a chemical growth regulator. this could be very helpful to a sativa grower, with headroom issues....but damaging to someone growing indica dominant strains, shorter to start with, unless it is planned for in advance. I kinda like a little stretch and have amended my defoliation schedule accordingly. like everything else, there seems to be a middle balance that is unique to every individual variety and situation.
defoliation during veg seems to encourage a ton of nodal development, done too early (5-6") , it seems to stunt the plants too much. too late (right before flowering) and you dont get those "branches full of nodes"
also:
the advice i took when i began HDT a few grows back was "do not prune any nodes at all" and I will agree that the popcorn buds DO swell considerably when heavily defoliated. However...even big popcorn, is still popcorn. I share the opinion of many growers when i say that i would sacrifice 10 oz of popcorn for 5 oz of "bag ready" buds.
so i have also started to prune wee sucker buds during week 2 of flowering....not lollipoping mind you, but i do remove anything that looks pathetic in mine eyes.

so my new schedule goes something like this:
no Heavy defoliation until my clones are at least a foot tall and well developed. then i pluck em completely. two weeks later and you cant tell they have been touched, they get another good pluck. then no more defoliation until after flowering. this seems to give me a good balance of nodal density and vegetative growth.
I dont defoliate at all during the 1st 2 weeks of flowering. then i hit em HARD. and take nodes that offend me (i grow vert so they are mainly in the middle of the plant...if growing horizontally, these would be the bottom buds).
four weeks in (when i start with my p/k boost) i hit em again...and from then on i see no more fan leaves trying to emerge.
six weeks in, I take scissors and "pre trim" the colas, leaving some leaf but getting as close to the bud as possible without damage. this seems to help ripen any buds that are still shaded.

other growers in our collective have remarked on the varied response of different strains. some seem to stress waaay out, herming when defoliated late in flower. others exhibit no stress at all. something to be considered when trying this on a new cultivar.
overall, I think HDT is the best tool i have added to my arsenal in the last decade. a powerful growth/stretch regulator as good as bushmaster, or an equivalent poison.
Once again, this glorious plant has let me in on a few more of her secrets. like everything it's up to the grower to strike a perfect balance that works for them.

Phenomenal post. I have experienced everything exactly to the T as you have stated. Your descriptions are tremendous and you have even found uses for what I always considered to be the negatives.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey delta, to go with your defol and flowering would you mind stating for the record your total veg time and how many sharing what wattage? 6 under a 1k right? Just one per week period or so?

hey, sorry for the delay in replying.

i would have to check records to be sure but i think that plant was vegged 7 weeks in a group of 7 without defoliation with a 1k hortilux hps.

it was then moved into flower between 2 1k's in tubes and defoliated one time at 21 days.

one plant per week.

 

[delta9nxs]

now that i have completed a few harvests using more aggressive defoliation and observed a few others in our group that have used Heavy defoliation, I thought i would add a few remarks to help guide anyone about to try this for the first time.

If you read my previous post you will see that i am quite happy with the extra yeild and density with HDT during veg and flower vs my previous "late flowering" defoliation, accompanied by lolipoping. The effect of Heavy Defoliation as a growth regulator is profound. On plants that were defoliated during the first 2 weeks of flowering I saw almost NO stretch at all, the plants react as if treated with a chemical growth regulator. this could be very helpful to a sativa grower, with headroom issues....but damaging to someone growing indica dominant strains, shorter to start with, unless it is planned for in advance. I kinda like a little stretch and have amended my defoliation schedule accordingly. like everything else, there seems to be a middle balance that is unique to every individual variety and situation.
defoliation during veg seems to encourage a ton of nodal development, done too early (5-6") , it seems to stunt the plants too much. too late (right before flowering) and you dont get those "branches full of nodes"
also:
the advice i took when i began HDT a few grows back was "do not prune any nodes at all" and I will agree that the popcorn buds DO swell considerably when heavily defoliated. However...even big popcorn, is still popcorn. I share the opinion of many growers when i say that i would sacrifice 10 oz of popcorn for 5 oz of "bag ready" buds.
so i have also started to prune wee sucker buds during week 2 of flowering....not lollipoping mind you, but i do remove anything that looks pathetic in mine eyes.

so my new schedule goes something like this:
no Heavy defoliation until my clones are at least a foot tall and well developed. then i pluck em completely. two weeks later and you cant tell they have been touched, they get another good pluck. then no more defoliation until after flowering. this seems to give me a good balance of nodal density and vegetative growth.
I dont defoliate at all during the 1st 2 weeks of flowering. then i hit em HARD. and take nodes that offend me (i grow vert so they are mainly in the middle of the plant...if growing horizontally, these would be the bottom buds).
four weeks in (when i start with my p/k boost) i hit em again...and from then on i see no more fan leaves trying to emerge.
six weeks in, I take scissors and "pre trim" the colas, leaving some leaf but getting as close to the bud as possible without damage. this seems to help ripen any buds that are still shaded.

other growers in our collective have remarked on the varied response of different strains. some seem to stress waaay out, herming when defoliated late in flower. others exhibit no stress at all. something to be considered when trying this on a new cultivar.
overall, I think HDT is the best tool i have added to my arsenal in the last decade. a powerful growth/stretch regulator as good as bushmaster, or an equivalent poison.
Once again, this glorious plant has let me in on a few more of her secrets. like everything it's up to the grower to strike a perfect balance that works for them.

superb post! great observational work! i am looking at timing and degree of severity trying to find balance. maybe we can get to the point here where we have people staying on topic and maturely discussing technique.

later, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

Hi, Delta. I've read like the first 50 pages and defoliated at 24 days 12/12. I also use Jack's Hydro. Do you use the Calcium Nitrate from them too? I do and I got a little bit of yellow on the tips and started using less. I started using 1/2 tsp. hydro and only 1/4 tsp of cal nitrate. Then I talked to my buddy and he said no to use equal cause that's what Peter's recommends. I'm getting a little bit of lockout ,I think now. Gonna switch out the nutes in a little bit cause my ppms are rising. I haven't changed my bucket in 2 weeks, which I've never done but, I have stuff all tied down in there. Your girls are stellar! Never mind. I found your thread. I'll be tuning in.

hi, realhard! i use yara liva calcinit. please move to my thread so we can discuss the jack's. thank you, d9

 

[Budley Doright]

Well delta.... I see now you are entering intellectual dishonesty....

You know Im absolutely correct....


you have no way of determining what advantages you get from defoliation and what you got from top feeding your plants.....


I recall you talking about what a guy you are/were diver... bar bouncer.....

all that macho....


how about you man up?????


answer my questions...


They are hardly irrelevant....


Should I quote what you said about you proving this method???


Well I can prove you havent......


But the numbers should come from you....... not me......



HOw much did you get from your first few top fed plants????


YOU know starting with plants top fed for all 17 weeks.....


How hard is that to answer?????


You have the numbers.....


Here is a comment from your thread....


on 5/21 you said this...


<<Well, I know I said I wasn't going to top water in flower but after seeing the health of the vegging plants I went ahead and installed a pulse system on the flowering plants too.>>


This means that the first plants to go thru this were complete say 1 aug or so....


Here is what you said in this thread on 8/3

<<the last 3 plants were 11.96, 12.45, and now 14.74 oz's totalling 39.15 oz's or averaging 13.05 each. all defoliated. the three largest plants i've ever grown.>>

I cant tell exactly but I suspect that these plants were some of the first to have top feeding thru flowering..... you might clarify that....




And you fail to mention that here.....


In this thread you seem to indcate you are defoliating like the end of may.....


Yet you are weeks away from knowing the advantages of top feeding thru the life of the plant....


Then you say everything is stable its defoliation.....


Clearly .....we have a problem houston.....


So its actually pretty simple slick....


how can you determine what you got from pulse top feeding and defoliation when you were doing them at the same time.....


Never did you allow a plant to finish with top feeding without defoliation..... right slick???

least not that I can see.....

I have no opinion on wheter defoliation works or not....Im doing some plants now.....

This post is only to say.....


delta is the last person that you want to provide 'proof'

he cant..... at least not unless Im reading this stuff wrong.....

 

[Snuff]

I have tried defoliation and my plants totally stopped growth. Two weeks after the defoliation and I see almost no progress in plant development. Very sad.

Before defoliation:


After defoliation:


Two weeks later:

 

[TruthOrLie]

Don't worry Snuff, just wait twice as longer and they'll be as big as they were before.

Then when they're all budded up with huge flowers you'll have the joy of discovering grey mold.

If only we were trying to make sweet wines.

 

[Blunt_69]

discovering grey mold.

if an environment is kept ideal, mold is a non issue. Defoilated or non. Open wounds on plants heal almost immediately if they are healthy.

 

[one Q]

Burnt rope But I am sorry that it is a “major” effort for you. Sometimes you have to actually work for your information.

man, when I surf IC I have a notebook and pencil right here... or at least and open notepad window for some serious ctrlC/ctrlV going on.
You gotta hustle to get the facts straight, ESP when youre surfing HIGH... LMAO Suckers expect everything to be laid out for them... then just go sprinkle dust in their grow room and BAM!

D9 is mad knowledge Sun, keep it up... some of us are watching close.

 

[Greyskull]

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

I have tried defoliation and my plants totally stopped growth. Two weeks after the defoliation and I see almost no progress in plant development. Very sad.

Before defoliation:


After defoliation:


Two weeks later:

Youre using a LED light, right?

 

[dramamine]

If only we were trying to make sweet wines.

...more like sour grapes

 

[one Q]

so my new schedule goes something like this:
no Heavy defoliation until my clones are at least a foot tall and well developed. then i pluck em completely. two weeks later and you cant tell they have been touched, they get another good pluck. then no more defoliation until after flowering. this seems to give me a good balance of nodal density and vegetative growth.
I dont defoliate at all during the 1st 2 weeks of flowering. then i hit em HARD. and take nodes that offend me (i grow vert so they are mainly in the middle of the plant...if growing horizontally, these would be the bottom buds).
four weeks in (when i start with my p/k boost) i hit em again...and from then on i see no more fan leaves trying to emerge.
six weeks in, I take scissors and "pre trim" the colas, leaving some leaf but getting as close to the bud as possible without damage. this seems to help ripen any buds that are still shaded.

other growers in our collective have remarked on the varied response of different strains. some seem to stress waaay out, herming when defoliated late in flower. others exhibit no stress at all. something to be considered when trying this on a new cultivar.

I would like to understand this statement please. If it;s not relevant to this thread, can you shoot me a PM. Thanks.

I feel the second paragraph could use a lil repeating... Q

 

[slowandeasy]

if an environment is kept ideal, mold is a non issue. Defoilated or non. Open wounds on plants heal almost immediately if they are healthy.

Your wasting your time with that guy. You are right, but for some reason....that is not the cause of his mold.