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CBD and memory protection

sac beh

sac beh

Member
I see you're over at another forum defending this same view that none of the other cannabinoids have any effect just because they are at low levels in most strains. Neither there nor here have you presented any evidence to back up the specific claim.

Again, I refer you to the study which is the topic of this thread, where .75% CBD was sufficient to eliminate memory impairment effects.
 
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dagon420

Member
Take a look at that study. The low cannabidiol group has markedly lower scores on psychotomimetic, stoned and anxiety symptoms. The difference did not emerge as significant because they only have 22 subjects per group and the standard deviation is relatively high.

So whats the conclusion? Since cannabidiol is a CB1 antagonist, it counters the effects of THC on memory. But it also attenuates the high. So why not just smoke cannabis with lower %s of THC?

Its the same thing as doing some coke and taking an antipsychotic = pointless.
 
sac beh

sac beh

Member
dagon420 said:
Oh yea and the ratio THC/CBD in the high CBD group in that study is 0.64 (~1.5/1) not 0.75%.
Click to expand...

Cannabidiol was "relatively scarce" in the cannabis samples; only 22 samples showed levels above 0.75%. Users of these samples made up the "high-cannabidiol" group, whereas users of samples with cannabidiol levels less than 0.14% made up the "low-cannabidiol" group.

As mentioned, the THC content of smoked cannabis did not differ markedly between samples.

According to the investigators, only volunteers who smoked cannabis low in cannabidiol showed impairment in immediate (P = .002) and delayed prose recall (P < .001) when acutely intoxicated.
Click to expand...

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/729896
 
J

Jeff Johnson

Member
Dang, now I have created a tussle. I just wanted to know which strains might go easy on my noggin, and now you guys are writing like graduate students. As a former graduate and phd student, I completely understand: some people are about data. As a philosophy professor who can't do long division, I retreat!!!
 
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dagon420

Member
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As you can see the % of THC is 8.39 and the % of CBD is 4.61.

Also, you can clearly tell that the CBD group is markedly lower on all the measures of being 'high' (psychotomimetic scale, stoned, anxiety).

Its also interesting that their low CBD group is using more cannabis and alcohol each month (so their memory may be better just because of that fact). Also, the high CBD group did significantly better on the Weschler reading test, which is likely their way to test premorbid IQ.

Conclusion: if you attenuate the effects of THC on memory, you also attenuate your high. So functionally, adding CBD to THC is the same as smoking cannabis containing a lower % of THC. But having said that, the design of this study is pretty flawed.
 
sac beh

sac beh

Member
Your problem is that you made a very extreme statement to start out with, and now you're struggling to defend it and have to weaken the original claim. So you're now saying that 1:2 is sufficient to cause an effect, whereas before you were sure that CBD was necessary in a 1:1 ratio for there to be any effect?

Your conclusion is a non sequitur. The first two claims are true, they are demonstrated over numerous studies of THC/CBD. But your conclusion does not follow.

"adding CBD to THC is the same as smoking cannabis containing a lower % of THC. But having said that, the design of this study is pretty flawed. "

This non sequitur is based on the incorrect assumption that the only role of CBD is a mere blocking of THC agonism at CB1 receptors.

Jeff, my only point here is that CBD does not have to be found in a 1:1 ratio for it to have the effects we're talking about. The study doesn't say, only dagon does.

What is your specialization in philosophy if I may ask?
 
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el dub

I have joint problems from athletics and a bad back due to getting rear ended in a car accident years ago. I have found dutch dragon, especially in oil form, relieves my physical symptoms without impairing memory. (My memory is better than my wife's and she doesn't smoke.) Anyway, DD is reported to contain around 1.2% CBD.

Hope this helps.

lw
 
Thule

Thule

Dr. Narrowleaf
Veteran
Instead of interpreting that research how about puffing some?

I have no idea about the effects of cbd on memory, but I can sure do other tests on myself. I always try to keep a small stash of cbd leaf or bud in case I need to medicate myself. I'm an ADD and also get anxiety attacks. I haven't pinned down the right amount of thc to cbd, but small amounts of cbd make the thc act differently (stronger if you have high tolerance to thc but not cbd) And I've been using cbd to sleep better.

Cbd alone does not promote sleeping, you get that body high but somehow it seems to make me more alert.
 
love?

love?

Member
el dub said:
I have joint problems from athletics and a bad back due to getting rear ended in a car accident years ago. I have found dutch dragon, especially in oil form, relieves my physical symptoms without impairing memory. (My memory is better than my wife's and she doesn't smoke.) Anyway, DD is reported to contain around 1.2% CBD.
Click to expand...

I find it interesting that you mention especially in oil form.

Since the subjects in the study smoked "their own chosen" cannabis and was conducted in the UK I'm guessing that most of the high-CBD samples were Moroccan hash.

So it could be a bud/hash thing instead of CBD/no-CBD too. What do you guys think based on your personal experience? I dunno really, there's certainly less of a crash/hangover when smoking hash (or when vaping which I really see as just another tool to do the same in a way). So maybe..
 
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dagon420

Member
Look, I'm giving you approximations based on what most randomized studies administer. That study is naturalistic so they have a ratio of 1.5/1. Certainly more than 0.75% that you were claiming.

My point is that 1. most drug-strain cannabis doesn't have enough CBD to make a difference. 2. Even if it did have a substantial amount of CBD, it would just antagonize the effects of THC since it is a CB1 antagonist.

The only other possible role of CBD could be a pharmacokinetic modulation of THC, but then again, it would just lower or raise then amounts of THC.

So again, both pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics suggests that smoking a lot of CBD is just like smoking less THC.

The statement is not extreme, its based on neuropharmacological principles (I am doing my Ph.D on a related topic). Also, the results of the above study clearly show that high CBD attenuates memory deficits but also attenuates the high.

I know smokers like to claim that 'there are over 60 cannabinoids' so there must be some mysterious forces at work. But all available evidence suggests that all minor cannabinoids are merely CB1 antagonists. So just because they are contained in the plant, doesn't mean that they are therapeutic.

However, it is possible that other chemicals could be at work such as limonene (AChe inhibitor), in terms of the memory protective effects.
 
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dagon420

Member
love? said:
I find it interesting that you mention especially in oil form.

Since the subjects in the study smoked "their own chosen" cannabis and was conducted in the UK I'm guessing that most of the high-CBD samples were Moroccan hash.

So it could be a bud/hash thing instead of CBD/no-CBD too. What do you guys think based on your personal experience? I dunno really, there's certainly less of a crash/hangover when smoking hash (or when vaping which I really see as just another tool to do the same in a way). So maybe..
Click to expand...

Thats true, refer to the a figure I posted above. Levels of CBD in hash are much higher than in marijuana. But again, why not just smoke less potent strains.
 
sac beh

sac beh

Member
dagon420 said:
I know smokers like to claim that 'there are over 60 cannabinoids' so there must be some mysterious forces at work. But all available evidence suggests that all minor cannabinoids are merely CB1 antagonists. So just because they are contained in the plant, doesn't mean that they are therapeutic.
Click to expand...

Well that seems like an odd thing for someone to claim. I think we can set that one aside given that we're both concerned about the natural biochemical forces involved.
 
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el dub

Why not smoke less potent strains?

Less potent strains don't relieve my joint and back pain. As stated above, I get better pain relief with oil than bud and oil from Dutch Dragon doesn't seem to impair my memory.

lw
 
J

Jeff Johnson

Member
Sac beh... I teach historical philosophy. I don't have the head for epistemology, and I'd rather talk about the old cats anyway.
 
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el dub

Is safari mix of african origin? Dutch dragon also has some african lineage.

lw
 
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