Can't decide what nutes to use

[RoostaPhish]

Alright people, haven't needed to buy new nutes in a while. So I have been racking my brain to decide what nutes to buy. I know i will be using ocean forest, and roots organics oregonism for sure. However I just can't seem to make up my mind on what line to use for nutrition, I have used most lines of nutes in my time and some worked better than others. Pbp has been one of my favorites and so has fox farm. Although in the past couple years I have been running exclusively organic super soil recipes with great success. I feel though I want to go back to solubles. I know there is great debate about GH and Advanced, but these could be contenders, especially Gen. Organics line, I just can't decide. I thought I would put this up for debate and see if I could be persuaded one way or another. I can say this, no matter what line I use it will be organic. I don't ask for help or even post much so please don't let me down. Peace and always remember to be good family, BrotherD

 

[phattybudz]

PBP has never done me wrong.

I say skip the sweet though, and just use molasses (cheaper.)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[YoungBud]

GH Years of Great yields.

 

[RoostaPhish]

My only concern with pbp is that it is not that complete. I always end up having to add cal-mag which makes it not at all organic. I also feel that the addition of sweet makes pbp a more complete fertilizer because it adds sulfur, something that pbp is lacking especially for flowering, it adds wonderfully to the aroma. I have seen considerable production using GH nutrients, especially floranova, but feel the plants lack potency that other lines produce. Some may disagree with me on this, but I have seen and grown amazing plants with it so hear me out. In a head to head trial with the exact same genetics and medium, using GH floranova with supplements from GH, and Humboldt nutrients oneness program, the humboldt blew it away. Especially in potency and flavor, although the GH plants yielded considerably more. This wasn't really a test but for our own curiosity. This was not my garden hence the synthetics but rather my second home. This was not GH's organic line, or humboldt's either, although most of hum's is biodegradable. I feel that all the organic lines of nutrients available lack crucial nutrients, especially calcium and sulfur, sulfur of which is extremely hard to find in a organic, soluble form, with the exception of epsom salt, sul-po-mag, or epsom plus, . Which I feel is a bit overkill, except when it comes to soil mixes like subcool's, sul-po-mag is a great replacement for epsom salt, I feel it adds much needed potassium to the mix. But it is a great mix either way. I do realize if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I love progression. This is a place where people like myself come to talk shop and I feel this is a great topic to discuss. Thanks for the feed back I hope to hear more. Peace BrotherD

 

[Admiral Canna]

PBP is definitely not an organic line at all. Seems to be a misconception.

Run with Fox Farm. A real winning lineup that is very cost effective.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I have bottles of expensive canna nutrients gathering dust on my shelf. I simply can not tell the difference between any commercial product, including miracle gro, and nothing at all. Yeah yeah, I've been growing 43 years nonstop, but I do try to keep an open mind. Maybe someday someone will show me some product that actually makes a noticable difference over my homemade soilmix? That one won't gather dust.

 

[RoostaPhish]

Yeah I know pbp isn't completely organic, just a suitable and environmentally friendly alternative to conventional ferts. But in that matter fox farm nutes aren't either, both are what they call "organic based", which usually constitutes the macro nutrients being from an organic source but the addition of chelated minerals for micro nutrition. Soil recipes have had me for a couple years now, and always outdoor for that matter, the quality is superb, however they seem to lack the giant yields i always achieved using solubles, indoors at least, it is a double edged sword I guess. Oh and on the Fox Farm note they are finally going to be selling a biological inoculate, I believe it is called bushdoctor but I know there is two different ones they will be releasing. Bout time they put one on the market.

 

[Admiral Canna]

You are correct.....Fox Farm is not organic with the exception of Big Bloom.

There are 3 new products coming out from Fox Farm.

The BushDoctor Sledgehammer FLUSH
The Microbe Brew
The Kangaroots

The last two are root inocculants/root simulators. (One smells like Roots Excelurator....hope it cheaper!)

Where is the carb product Fox Farm?????????

 

[RoostaPhish]

The sledgehammer has been on their feeding schedule for like five years now, or at least it used to be. I was wondering when I was going to see it, which turned out to be last month. Must not have made it off the west coast, or they decided not to produce it until now. Yeah, microbe brew, I couldn't remember the name of that one. Their innoculants/stimulants contain an N-P-K ratio, something you don't see in many of these with the exception of subculture and piranha, which used to contain nitrogen, and now I believe contains micro nutrients. Oh and you are correct that big bloom is, forgot about that, I did a few crops of bubbleberry in the past using nothing but ocean forest and big bloom, nothing else, and to tell you the truth it worked pretty well, not spectacular, but well. I had to use it with every watering though to get any kind of results, although a quite a few strains I have grown especially the land race varieties grew in ocean forest with no addition ferts what so ever and came out spectacular.

 

[Grass Lands]

Fox Farms complete lineup (minus the new prods they just came out with)...with a few additives like myco madness, Humboldt Honey ES, Hydroplex and Canna PK 13/14...and the results are incredible...

 

[desertsquirrel]

Start with shroomdr's sticky. Then Find out what is the products. Then start to make selections.....

Btw the big dogs at botanicare told the manager of my hydro store that the reason why botanicare products produce such consistent results is that every product in the line contains the same formula of amino's, b1, EDTA, etc. Buying more products does not mean that your getting a better nute profile.

Also if you run r/o your not going to find any line of nutes that will stand w/o cal mag.

 

[RoostaPhish]

D.S. so I gather by what you are saying is that the guaranteed analysis means squat, as far as what is really in the bottle that is. And even though a specific nutrient is not labeled on a bottle it doesn't mean that it is not present. While I have always thought this to be true I am wondering if it is present in such small quantities that it is not mentionable. A great example of this would be with advanced, I have always noticed that they list very few nutrients on there labels. I guess what I was getting at is that the specific nutrients are not in a high enough concentration so the addition added something that was lacking. All of there other nutrients in many of the other lines show a much larger nutrient profile than Pbp, which is the specific product I was talking about, such as the CNS and Power lines. Through my many years of professional greenhouse work I have had the experience of using many different lines of high grade nutrients, many of which not available to the public, both conventional and organic, and most would definitely tell you what nutrients were plentiful enough to mention. Also as far as r/o water goes I already do know that much of the calcium will be removed upon filtration but have found that not all nutrients need a supplement of calcium to be effective they already contain enough, or there is already enough present in the growing medium. I started this thread not really to debate what each specific line consists of but rather to possibly have some folks show me their results with different lines and especially the new products that are available these days. A lot of responses have dealt with nutrient lines I have dabbled with in the past. I think I am just trying to make up my mind, I sometimes have trouble making decisions and thought I would try to get a push one way or another. Thanks for all your input it is appreciated. BrotherD

 

[desertsquirrel]

I asked you to look because your comparing apples to ornges..

PBP is Derived from: Fish Meal, Composted Seabird Guano, Kelp, Rock Phosphate, Potassium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate. 0.15% Humic acid derived from leonardite.

GH maxi bloom: Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate Ammonium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Sulfate, Iron DTPA, Iron EDTA, Potassium Borate, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate, Zinc Sulfate.

Advanced connoisseur is Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Nitrate, Monopotassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, UREA.


PBP is a totally different approach to feeding... Labels contain any major ingredient, so for instance the additive that botanicare uses is like a super thive, b1, amino's, etc. one drop per gallon is what super thive calls for so botanicare does not put those on the label, they are considered "secret recipes."

On the other hand they dont base an add campaign around these undocumented "secrets" as AN would seem to... IMO the lack of ingredients in AN is a lack of product and nothing more.

In PBP however i think its a different story. The seeming lack of ingredients is because PBP doesnt directly feed your plant, its breakdown creates the chemicals that feed your plant.

I dont run PBP but i have, and i like it.. I also really liked the fox farm lines untill they started making 20+ products just like AN... Also cant go wrong with another all in one like maxibloom or dynabloom....

Btw a friend is doing a side by side right now with a full advanced line big mike gave him, and another table of JUST pbp and he said the pbp is kicking its ass.... trying to get him to post pics...

 

[RoostaPhish]

Alright I just accidentally deleted my detailed response so here is the short version. I do understand the soil food web and how it works very clearly. But knowing this I know that nothing in Pbp, besides kelp will be broken down to produce sulfur, and that does not produce a high enough concentration for many plants. Also, cal-mag is nothing like superthrive, which is a vitamin and hormone supplement that contains no actual plant food at all. B one is a vitamin and nothing more, EDTA , amino and humic acids are chelating agents. And not all of their supplements contain these agents. Not sure how I am comparing apples to oranges, unless you are talking about the different ways to feed your plants ie synthetic to organic being nothing the same,but I will review my posts. No matter what way plants are grown they do require a great deal of nutrition to grow properly. I have yet to find anyone who has used Pbp in a completely hydro setup with no additional supplementation what so ever. This is not true with other products in there line though. Remember in mixes like pro-mix there is already a charge of macro and micro nutrients, so this could never be a problem with some strains in these types of mixes. I do agree that the numbers of supplements has gotten unreal and alot of them are not really needed but I have experimented with lots of different nutes and have found that some really do. Marketing maybe, incompatibility in a bottle could be another. Ok well I am just going to sit back and listen now and maybe someone will show me some results, that is all I want. I really hope that this is not taken offensively because that would suck I enjoy talking shop. Peace D

 

[desertsquirrel]

i was just discussing the topic with you, rather then push a single line or product.

apples and oranges referred to the reason why AN isn't listing some ingredients and why botanicare doesn't list all the ingredents....

IMO
AN - simply doesnt have much in it
all botanicare lines - thier version of a superthrive/catalyst is left out
pbp - macros are made from whats in the bottle, but are not actualy in the bottle

in either case, yeah i was recommending any of the all in ones with both cal-mag as well as superthirve.... not one or the other... and some minimal sugar (sucrat or molasses).

hope that helps clarify

(btw lots of good info on this from twohigh's threads if you want to check it out)

 

[ShroomDr]

First off, i sincerely doubt that botanicare is adding superthrive to their products. Superthrive is a B vitamin (and NAA hormone containing) product. Superthive is banned in Oregon (and i think somewhere else too) because they dont list the NAA on the label.

Im sure the bontanicare lineup has plenty of B vitamins (Liquid Karma, and their base nutes).

As for this 'Bontaicare doesnt have enough S' stuff, its pretty much unsubstantiated. Bontanicare generally only lists a hand full of elements.

Example.

CNS17 literally stands for 'Complete Nutrient System with 17 elements'. There is some debate over how many elements are needed. Anywher from 16-22 elements (plants have different adaptations) but I think the CNS17 elements are N, P, K, Mg, Ca, Fe, B, Cl, Co, Cu, Mo, Mn, Ni, S, Zn (and I think they count H, O, & C). (Thats actually 18, if i had to guess, I would probably guess Cl wasnt included.)

Their labels dont list all 17 elements, another poster has claimed Botanicare claimed them as trade secrets.

(Botanicare Labels)
Botanicare CNS17 Hydro Grow (3-2-4) (NH4).14% (NO3)2.86% Mg.5% Ca2.8% S1.1% Mn.05% Mo.0005%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 91
P 26
K 101
Mg 15
Ca 85
S 33
Mn 1.5
Mo 0.015
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.


Botanicare CNS17 Coco Grow (3-1-2) (NH4).14% (NO3)2.86% Mg.5% Ca3.6% Mn.05% Mo.0005%
4360g/3800mL = 1.147g/mL
@10mL/Gal
N 91
P 13
K 50
Mg 15
Ca 109
S NOT LISTED
Mn 1.5
Mo 0.015
Derived from: Calcium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Nitrate, Manganese Sulfate, Ammonium Molybdate.

As you can see with this last one, they dont even bother to list S in the elemental breakdown, but it lists MgS and MnS in the derived from. There is S there, they just dont want to list the number.

On top of all that, Bontaicare Sweet has plenty of MgS, so if you dont think their base has enough, just realize they want you to buy their supplements too.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Not superthrive, but their version of B1, amino's etc... either way thanks for clearing it up shroomdr.

 

[RoostaPhish]

Yeah I was talking about the Pbp line only when it came to the lack of sulfur, and the ingredients derived from would support that theory. I am well aware of the added magnesium and sulfur that sweet adds and actually that is what i stated previously as well as also previously stating that the CNS and Power plant lines were much more if not totally complete. Guys I know a lot about these different fertilizers and just wanted to get some fellow growers opinions. This topic of incomplete fertilizers is all over these forums and for good reason. By the way I decided to go with the GO line and after one crop was already very impressed by the results. It produced the best Cheese and Blue Cheese I have smoked to date.

 

[TheBioMaster]

ummm..CNS 17 stands for COMERCIAL Nutrient System, not complete nutrient system....lol You should download the product sheet on it for more accurate information.

 

[Bud Bug]

My only concern with pbp is that it is not that complete.

This was my first time using PB. Never had problems with it. Just watch what the plant is doing and react accordingly now sometimes this don't work if the clones are shit.

Thread https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159978