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do lower taxes create jobs?

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robbiedublu

Member
Be that as it may, Reaganomics were responsible for what Clinton is being credited for. Truth be told, the Freddie Mac/Fanny Mae fiasco and the resultant ongoing problems are a direct result of the Clinton Administration. Add to that Dubya's war and spending and here we are. Obama wasn't able to fix 16+ years worth of other people's crap in one year and now everyone blames him for the current state of affairs. That's just not how it works.

What is Clinton credited for? Shipping all of our manufacturing jobs offshore and allowing other countries to ship their cheap crap(iphones and big screen tvs, etc) here for all the sheeple to buy? You're right, Reaganomics was responsible for that.
 
I

In~Plain~Site

Be that as it may, Reaganomics were responsible for what Clinton is being credited for. Truth be told, the Freddie Mac/Fanny Mae fiasco and the resultant ongoing problems are a direct result of the Clinton Administration. Add to that Dubya's war and spending and here we are. Obama wasn't able to fix 16+ years worth of other people's crap in one year and now everyone blames him for the current state of affairs. That's just not how it works.

Good,bad or indifferent, there is no denying that there were 20 million jobs created during Reagan's candidacy.

Clinton's economy was a consequence from the dot bubble, selected tax breaks and deregulating the republicans put fourth. Clinton's major contribution was raising minimum wage. Lots of other variables to add maybe one of our gifted members will contribute and give a more detailed answer.

Your assessment that Reagen was liable for Clinton's attainment is slight to say but insoluble to attest It does make a great political talking point.

Mj

That statement about sums up Bubba's time, aside from Monica :D

Last year it dropped by a very good amount due to real estate values plunging. No state taxes here.

That's the exception, not the rule.
 

pokergod

Member
Bush Clinton Reagan, blah blah blah blah It doesn't matter. We're f***ked. The global elites have won. The fed will keep printing money until it's not worth the paper it's printed on. We have simultaneous deflation ,on stuff you don't need, like expensive houses, and inflation ,which will soon get way worse, on stuff you need to survive, like gasoline and food. That is what's happening RIGHT NOW!! Buy gold, guns and food to store. Shit is gonna get bad. Believe it !

You got it right on! Continuous deficit spending, increasing the money supply with cheap money will cause massive inflation. Gold is hovering near $1300/oz for a reason. Pretty soon greenbacks will be used for tp. This world is ruled by the corporations and the elite, they get all the tax breaks and its the average Joe that has to suffer. Pretty soon China will be the no.1 economy in the world. The US is/has been sold off to foreigners for a long time now, Saudis, Japanese, Chinese, etc.
 

clp

Member
Less taxes spur economic growth by giving incentive for more businesses to open up. With less taxes you potentially get more profit. More taxes means that companies don't want to open up businesses because there profit margins will be smaller. This leads to a decline in economic development.
Very basic but it's the general idea behind it..
 

Snowberry

Member
What happened to the Emancipation Proclaimation?

What happened to the Emancipation Proclaimation?

God, Honest Abe must be rolling in his grave.

Woodrow Wilson gave us the Federal Reserve....in essence giving control of the entire monetary system to private bankers. There was no such thing as income tax until 1919. After the first world war was settled and the debt piled up was called in Germany riled up by Hitler revolted and we know what transpired from there. From all the unbridled "Free market" economics during the same period we lived through the dirty 30s depression FDR brought in the "New Deal" and many trade unions organized to bring about a bigger slice for ordinary workers in the form of minimum wages, shorter work hours...in those days it was common to work six 12 hour days a week. Child labor laws, better working conditions, holidays, pensions and health care benefits were added to the list.

FDR also enacted regulations to the banking system to prevent unbridled greed from ruining it again....Republican presidents Nixon (who took out the gold standard in 1972) Reagan, and both Bushs' further deregulated the economic system to bring us to this point in time.

The last time before modern times a monetary system was ever rejected by a more powerful entity was when the Pope declared the Knights Templar as unholy agents of Satan centuries ago. The shake out from that decision was indeed bloody, and it was the Templars who did the bleeding.

There are many points in this thread that illuminate truth in this subject.

Until we rid ourselves as a species of rich, powerful greedy pricks who enslave the masses of humanity of their ideal control and wealth concentration, we will go through the rest of history repeating man's inhumanity to men.

The simple fact is the "Massa's" aint whippin black folks from horseback.........they are doing it from lobby seats in pinstriped suits in Washington these days. Truth is if you are in debt, yer massa's the banker from the "Praise the Lord an pass the ammo" crowd who get fed before you or your family is.

Interestingly enough a mortgage on a home implies in debt till death..."Morte" being Latin for death. Most mortgages last 20-30 years....for those students of the Bible, read Deuteronomy in the Old Testament.....a few lines in it are dedicated to the notion of debt, from what I recall 7 years time to repay a creditor is the upper limit, and if not repaid must be forgiven.

Where is Dubya's pals the haves and have mores on this? In fact Jesus preached helping the poor and the only incidence of his violence was when he turned tables on moneychangers in the temple. (Moneychangers were like bankers in those days) for a fee, you could buy your sacrifice.

Truth is what it is.

*My use of the word "Massa's" is not intended to offend in a racist dialog....in context my intent is to highlight the role of slave owners and the fact people who are indebted a lifetime are in essence slaves to banks, whether on a personal basis or by virtue of governments worldwide who en-debt their people to them.

And if I piss off bankers and their ilk.....:moon: pucker suckers!
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
God, Honest Abe must be rolling in his grave.

Woodrow Wilson gave us the Federal Reserve....in essence giving control of the entire monetary system to private bankers. There was no such thing as income tax until 1919. After the first world war was settled and the debt piled up was called in Germany riled up by Hitler revolted and we know what transpired from there. From all the unbridled "Free market" economics during the same period we lived through the dirty 30s depression FDR brought in the "New Deal" and many trade unions organized to bring about a bigger slice for ordinary workers in the form of minimum wages, shorter work hours...in those days it was common to work six 12 hour days a week. Child labor laws, better working conditions, holidays, pensions and health care benefits were added to the list.

FDR also enacted regulations to the banking system to prevent unbridled greed from ruining it again....Republican presidents Nixon (who took out the gold standard in 1972) Reagan, and both Bushs' further deregulated the economic system to bring us to this point in time.

The last time before modern times a monetary system was ever rejected by a more powerful entity was when the Pope declared the Knights Templar as unholy agents of Satan centuries ago. The shake out from that decision was indeed bloody, and it was the Templars who did the bleeding.

There are many points in this thread that illuminate truth in this subject.

Until we rid ourselves as a species of rich, powerful greedy pricks who enslave the masses of humanity of their ideal control and wealth concentration, we will go through the rest of history repeating man's inhumanity to men.

The simple fact is the "Massa's" aint whippin black folks from horseback.........they are doing it from lobby seats in pinstriped suits in Washington these days. Truth is if you are in debt, yer massa's the banker from the "Praise the Lord an pass the ammo" crowd who get fed before you or your family is.

Interestingly enough a mortgage on a home implies in debt till death..."Morte" being Latin for death. Most mortgages last 20-30 years....for those students of the Bible, read Deuteronomy in the Old Testament.....a few lines in it are dedicated to the notion of debt, from what I recall 7 years time to repay a creditor is the upper limit, and if not repaid must be forgiven.

Where is Dubya's pals the haves and have mores on this? In fact Jesus preached helping the poor and the only incidence of his violence was when he turned tables on moneychangers in the temple. (Moneychangers were like bankers in those days) for a fee, you could buy your sacrifice.

Truth is what it is.

*My use of the word "Massa's" is not intended to offend in a racist dialog....in context my intent is to highlight the role of slave owners and the fact people who are indebted a lifetime are in essence slaves to banks, whether on a personal basis or by virtue of governments worldwide who en-debt their people to them.

And if I piss off bankers and their ilk.....:moon: pucker suckers!

You better watch out...you're getting "political". And I'm sure someone won't understand you were just giving examples, and they'll call you a racist bigot. :)

Seriously...you're spot on. We've got some big problems...and it's going to take tough solutions. And GIVING a quarter of the population more free stuff isn't going to be the answer.

How about we abolish 3/4 of the government and we ALL start looking after ourselves again? You know...like the first 100 years of this country. (Please don't bring up slavery...I know you want to, it's doesn't apply, I'm talking about small government and personal freedom and responsibility, not everyone owned slaves)

The government is the biggest "employer", the trouble is...it needs tax money from me and you to pay them. I know what you're thinking...or should be thinking...WHAT do we do with the tens of millions of government employees when we cut government? That's why you'll never see the end of the IRS and the tax system...millions have jobs because of the tax code. What will they do? That's why government always grows and never gets smaller. Too many people are relying on it for their well being.

It's tricky...it's too bad we can't can't discuss it. Things will come up that will offend some.
 

maryj315

Member
You got it right on! Continuous deficit spending, increasing the money supply with cheap money will cause massive inflation. Gold is hovering near $1300/oz for a reason

Don't be fooled gold is a bubble much the same as oil was. We have had interest rates at virtually nothing for a long time now yet no inflation in sight. We could use a little inflation right about now. My biggest concern is deflation not buying gold from Beck.

Mj
 

Sam the Caveman

Good'n Greasy
Veteran
Personal income taxes do not fund government services at all, not one penny, it all goes to the federal reserve.

Who do you really think is behind personal income tax increases??????

The one who benefits, duh. It's not the government!

Raising personal income taxes doesn't help the government at all, it only burdens the public. Its the federal reserves way of "mopping up" purchasing power to help control inflation. That's their own words.

Read the Grace Commission Report from 1984, that will answer your (op) question explicitly.
 

SpasticGramps

Don't Drone Me, Bro!
ICMag Donor
Veteran
The money/credit suppliers have most of the control over the economy, not the taxers.

The international bankers don't make public service announcements that they are contracting the money/credit supply. You hear about it long after the effects are seen, when they find out that banks aren't lending money.

Loans are where the majority of money/credit comes from, not the money printing machine.

We have inflation every year, why must there be inflation at all, why can't there be deflation every year, because it doesn't empower the money/credit makers.

The problem is not taxes, its the money/credit makers, the system has been fucked since 1913. The people who we think are in control can't do shit until we reform the money/credit system.

Bush Clinton Reagan, blah blah blah blah It doesn't matter. We're f***ked. The global elites have won. The fed will keep printing money until it's not worth the paper it's printed on. We have simultaneous deflation ,on stuff you don't need, like expensive houses, and inflation ,which will soon get way worse, on stuff you need to survive, like gasoline and food. That is what's happening RIGHT NOW!! Buy gold, guns and food to store. Shit is gonna get bad. Believe it !

QFT

This whole tax debate is hilarious. Cutting taxes and increasing spending right now is financial suicide.

I would normally like to go on and on about this, but I don't really care anymore. The system is finished and is starting to come down. You either get it or you don't. It makes no sense to me to sit around and point fingers while the ship is sinking. I'd rather go grab my life vest and get prepared.

Do yourself a favor and go read the "Are You Prepared" thread.
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
Personal income taxes do not fund government services at all, not one penny, it all goes to the federal reserve.

Who do you really think is behind personal income tax increases??????

The one who benefits, duh. It's not the government!

Raising personal income taxes doesn't help the government at all, it only burdens the public. Its the federal reserves way of "mopping up" purchasing power to help control inflation. That's their own words.

Read the Grace Commission Report from 1984, that will answer your (op) question explicitly.

I've heard that too...that ALL the income tax goes to pay the interest to the fed. But...like most things...I'm not sure it's true. That's all in those zeitgeist movies huh? It's been a long time since I saw them.

But you have to admit...the government is WAY too big...and it takes in too much money in taxes.

This is like the global warming argument...is it man made? From our carbon? There's no way to prove it...but all the carbon belching out all day long sure can't help. Taxes may not matter to the economy...but high taxes sure can't help.
 

Sam the Caveman

Good'n Greasy
Veteran
I've heard that too...that ALL the income tax goes to pay the interest to the fed. But...like most things...I'm not sure it's true. That's all in those zeitgeist movies huh? It's been a long time since I saw them.

It's not from any movie, it's from a commission appointed by ronald regan that produced the Grace Commission Report. Look it up and read it, its not a long read. It can be googled and read in 2 minutes.
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
It's not from any movie, it's from a commission appointed by ronald regan that produced the Grace Commission Report. Look it up and read it, its not a long read. It can be googled and read in 2 minutes.

Ah...transfer payments too...that's another "shell game" that the accountants use.

Have you seen the Zeitguist videos? http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

They're interesting, though over the top sometimes.
 

Pythagllio

Patient Grower
Veteran
It is the wealthy that create jobs. Do tax cuts help? Well when one increases his income he probably has a tendency to buy more stuff. Labor is something to purchase.

Business don't actually pay any income tax, the customers take care of that.

That being said its going to be a curve as to it's impact. If you're taxing the people at a rate of 99% and lower the rate to 50% you can be certain that will certainly create jobs. If you tax at a rate of 3% and lower it to 2.5 %, probably not. There is a sweet spot on curve that will maximize tax revenue and promote job creation. Frankly the US government has used up that possibility from their bag of tricks, and tax cuts today would more likely be the 3% to 2.5% example.

Reagan's tax cuts in the early 1980s certainly were effective promoting job creation. If you think this is a bad economy you probably weren't alive in the the late 1970s. My sister got a mortgage to buy a home in 1981. Her mortgage rate was 16.5% adjustable. She was getting conventional financing based on a good credit report.

Really people this economy isn't all that bad. Shit, I'll bet you can't even tell me what "odds and evens" means.
 

ThePizzaMan

Active member
Veteran
It theoretically should, since the middle class is burdened with the highest percentage being taken from their paychecks. However, in a recession, when the perceived outlook is grimm...people do not run out and spend that extra fare...they sock it away for better days.

The truly poor are on government aid....and the rich have accountants and advisors who help them pay almost nothing...as they truly should carry the largest burden as a class. That is not how it works in reality though. The middle class has traditionally been the class that carries all classes.

Fuck yeah for the workin man!
 
M

mugenbao

Do lower taxes create jobs? Well, the CBO says no. So does Moody's. When the rich (those who ostensibly would use the money to create jobs) are given tax cuts, they don't spend the 'savings'.

You can argue various theories and whether tax cuts 'should' logically create jobs, but the numbers say no.

.
 

pokergod

Member
It theoretically should, since the middle class is burdened with the highest percentage being taken from their paychecks. However, in a recession, when the perceived outlook is grimm...people do not run out and spend that extra fare...they sock it away for better days.

The truly poor are on government aid....and the rich have accountants and advisors who help them pay almost nothing...as they truly should carry the largest burden as a class. That is not how it works in reality though. The middle class has traditionally been the class that carries all classes.

Fuck yeah for the workin man!


Well there's people and more people
What do they know know know
Go to work in some high rise
And vacation down at the Gulf of Mexico
Ooh yeah
And ther's winners and there's losers
But they ain't no big deal
'Cause the simple man baby pays for the thrills, the bills,
the pills that kill

John Cougar
 

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
I'll probably start a fight here, but I'm posing it as a serious question about macroeconomic theory. Which economic theorist would say that lower taxes create jobs? I know John Maynard Keynes would say government spending expands the economy. Who would be the economist who carries the flag for lower taxes? Milton Friedman?

I think that if the government wants to create jobs, they should do so directly. Hire people into public works projects, like during the New Deal. In order to construct and rebuild highways, bridges, build broadband capability, do research , build hospitals, build universities.

I mean if you lower taxes, how do you know the person who gets the tax refund isn't going to just blow it on consumption rather than invest it? Consumption removes value whereas investing creates value. We want to be investing in nation building...our own! ...not just trying to get people to buy more stuff.

Just wondering if anyone has any numerical analysis that backs up one or the other way of decreasing unemployment. I am a scientist, I want evidence not just hypotheses.

If you have to ask the question then you shouldn't be allowed to vote. The last thing we need are more government workers, with 5 supervisors watching one guy with a shovel, all getting full health care and full pension on the back of me and others in the private sector who are paying the taxes for these worthless folks.

This is common sense.

Only those who believe that government creates or produces anything would not know the answer to such a basic question.

In case you still don't understand, then I'll answer. YES. Lower taxes creates jobs.

Read "Free to Choose". Read some history. Better yet, ponder this. Why would you look into a numerical analysis for such a basic question? These bullshit charts and graphs were produced by academics who have never held or created a real job to JUSTIFY higher taxes. Us regular folks, who have real jobs and businesses KNOW that if we can keep more of our own money, we will spend it. Who the fuck do you think spends money more wisely? You or the government? Just look at the stimulis package to see that the average cost of saving a government job (not 1 job was created) was in the millions of dollars per job. But then who needs a study on the effects of cocaine on monkeys when so many are out of work?

Tea Party. Government has a limited role in our lives as per the Constitution. This bloated bullshit machine in D.C. is out of control and we need to starve the beast.
 

robbiedublu

Member
If you have to ask the question then you shouldn't be allowed to vote. The last thing we need are more government workers, with 5 supervisors watching one guy with a shovel, all getting full health care and full pension on the back of me and others in the private sector who are paying the taxes for these worthless folks.

This is common sense.

Only those who believe that government creates or produces anything would not know the answer to such a basic question.

In case you still don't understand, then I'll answer. YES. Lower taxes creates jobs.

Read "Free to Choose". Read some history. Better yet, ponder this. Why would you look into a numerical analysis for such a basic question? These bullshit charts and graphs were produced by academics who have never held or created a real job to JUSTIFY higher taxes. Us regular folks, who have real jobs and businesses KNOW that if we can keep more of our own money, we will spend it. Who the fuck do you think spends money more wisely? You or the government? Just look at the stimulis package to see that the average cost of saving a government job (not 1 job was created) was in the millions of dollars per job. But then who needs a study on the effects of cocaine on monkeys when so many are out of work?

Tea Party. Government has a limited role in our lives as per the Constitution. This bloated bullshit machine in D.C. is out of control and we need to starve the beast.

My problem with the tea party is that many members don't really believe in limited government, they just wan't things their way. Do you think Christine Odonnell is for getting the government out of womens private affairs and allowing them to get abortions if they choose? HELL NO! Do you think she wants the government to stop telling you that an adult doesn't have the right to grow and smoke whatever you like as long as you aren't hurting anyone else? NO NO NO !!
There is really a huge right wing fascist component to the tea party, sorry to say.
 
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