Fun Survey: Innate Behavior

[sac beh]

An experimental philosopher at Yale is asking people to fill out this survey for his research:

http://yale.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_1z6FowrjGfOYzo8

The research investigates people's perception of innateness of traits and behaviors and the influence of moral judgments. The survey presents 3 scenarios where you're asked to judge whether something is innate or not. If you don't know what innate means, here's the definition:

-existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn <innate behavior>
-belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent
-originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience

I'd be interested to hear what others think..

 

[!!!]

Interesting. What do you think?

BTW for anyone doing this or any other agree-disagree tests. Always choose a polar end. you either AGREE strongly or you DISAGREE strongly. The middle answers don't mean shit. In fact, I programmed something like this for a client once and in the programming, we basically discard any middle answers. Middle answers also show you as being indecisive when you're given a personality test by a prospective employer.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

in order of the most innate to the least innate, imho were:

1. trait x
2. the baby's mental capacity
3. the birds navigation

with none of the subjects being either completely innate or completely acquired.

imho

(assuming everyone is asked the same questions)

 

[GMT]

lol I would have said exactly the opposite head

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

lol I would have said exactly the opposite head

guess that's why they're doing the survey

 

[sac beh]

Interesting. What do you think?

BTW for anyone doing this or any other agree-disagree tests. Always choose a polar end. you either AGREE strongly or you DISAGREE strongly. The middle answers don't mean shit. In fact, I programmed something like this for a client once and in the programming, we basically discard any middle answers. Middle answers also show you as being indecisive when you're given a personality test by a prospective employer.

I took the opposite approach, because, after all this guy is an "experimental philosopher" and his picture inspired fear in in me:

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jk762/

So where I thought his wording didn't lead without doubt to a certain yes or no, I answered in between. Of all people certainly a philosopher will glean meaning from such an answer.

Most to least innate:
1. trait x
2. the birds navigation
3. the baby's mental capacity

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

it seemed more as though the bird has the innate ability to rapidly learn to navigate, than the innate ability to navigate. If the bird were kept in the dark, the ability would not be learned and would not exist.

The baby's learning was the result of a change in the genome, so though the ability might not be inherent to his species is was an integral part of the baby's make-up and somewhat inherent to his being. I interpreted the question to mean that there are only two possible feeding possibilities for the child, and I also made the assumption that it was not the mother's milk which caused the ability but rather that the synthetic formula would remove the ability.

In retrospect I would change the order I gave and place condition X in between the other two, but closer to the bird's navigation since removing the child from parents would be (difficult, but) possible.

 

[sac beh]

H3ad, good call on the bird navigation, I didn't read carefully enough and failed to separate the innate ability to learn navigation rapidly from the ability to navitage:

Scenario 1: Bird Navigation

Bird navigation is one of the most intensively studied aspects of animal behavior. Since the 1950s scientists have investigated in great detail the processes by which birds develop the ability to navigate.

The Alder Flycatcher (Empidonax alnorum) is a migratory neo-tropical bird that breeds in southern Canada and the northern USA.

Studies of the Alder Flycatcher show that, like many birds, they have the ability to use the sun as a ‘celestial compass.’ That is, they are able to combine information about the sun’s position and the time of day, in order to determine direction of flight.

Though this ability to navigate by the sun develops rapidly in fledgling Flycatcher, studies have shown that acquiring the ability requires approximately four hours visual experience in direct sunlight. This is required in order to learn the relationship between sun position and time of day, which is crucial to the operation of the bird’s navigation system.

As a matter of fact, virtually all Alder Flycatcher experience at least four hours of direct sunlight, and so virtually all members of the species develop the ability to navigate by the sun.

Now please tell us whether you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Navigation in the Alder Flycatcher is innate.

Re-reading them in light of this, isn't the same logic present in this scenario also, the possibility of developing trait X being innate vs. trait X being innate?

Scenario 2: Trait X

Imagine that scientists are trying to understand how people develop a particular trait, which they have come to call Trait X.

The scientists have discovered a surprising fact about people’s genes. They have discovered that people’s genes work in such a way that almost everyone will end up developing Trait X. In fact, it turns out that children develop Trait X as long as their parents sometimes treat them badly.

Now, just about everyone’s parents treat them badly at least sometimes. So, given the way people’s genes work, just about everyone actually does develop Trait X.

Now please tell us whether you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Trait X is innate.

As for the baby, it seems more certain to me to say that its mental abilities are innate, as under normal, natural circumstances (e.g., no synthetic formula) all babies develop the mental capabilities, thus the formula inhibits the innate ability.

Scenario 3: Baby Power

A baby was born with a rare genetic condition. The doctors told the baby’s parents: ‘If this baby drinks its mother’s milk during its first two weeks of life, it will grow up to have extraordinary mental abilities that make it able to solve very complicated math problems. However, if you instead give it this expensive formula we sometimes use, it won’t develop the extraordinary abilities and will just be normal.

The parents said: ‘We have decided not to give the baby the expensive formula. We will just be feeding it with its mother’s milk.

As expected, the baby grew up to have extraordinary mental abilities that made it able to solve very complicated math problems.

Now please tell us whether you agree or disagree with the following statement:

The baby's extraordinary mental abilities were innate.

Interesting thought experiments, and not without relevance to conceptual issues involved with growing/nurturing cannabis.

 

[!!!]

I think the point is to figure out how the wording in the paragraph changes whether you think the ability is innate or learned. In the bird example, in the second passage the ability "sounds" learned because the word 'learn' is used. In the first passage of the same example, the difference in the passage is scientific and so sounds like it would be innate.

Child abuse is something people associate with mental illness down the line and so for that passage many people may associated learned behavior with parents treating their children badly.

 

[GMT]

With the bird's ability to navigate according to the sun, an exposure to the sun is necessary, but no education is. How could a bird navigate by a sun that it cannot see? The initial exposure to the sun is not a lesson in navigation nor is it the education that there is somewhere else to navigate too. Therefore this ability would be innate to my mind.

Trait X depends entirely upon personal experience, therefore, as experience can adjust this, cannot be something that exists entirely within the makeup of the brain. Therefore cannot be innate in my opinion.

The baby's abilities would be innate as they require a special formula to extinguish the ability to develop, and therefore that ability is enitirely derived from nature in my view.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

The questions seem to be so presented as to make either case plausible.
This is a very interesting thought experiment, indeed.
However.

Perhaps my position will need furthur modification the longer I think on this... but as of right now, I think one's answer is dependent on where one set's the threshold for defining innate.

I guess that an innate ability that one is unaware of is still an innate ability, and one could imagine that the ability to navigate is already there and only realized when the bird observes the sun for a significant enough period of time to have the epiphany of its ability.

For trait X, "parents treat them badly" is so subjective as to be meaningless as a condition. Badly according to what standards? The argument could be made there, too, however that the trait is there but is only realized when treated badly.

With the baby... the same logic could apply. an innate condition which is either realized or suppressed under certain conditions.


The opposite argument could also be made for all three, that some external thing brings about a learned use of a different innate aspect than the aspect mentioned in the poll question.

 

[sac beh]

Take Scenario 1. Getting rid of the irrelevant/distracting information we have:

1) The bird has the ability to combine information about the sun’s position and the time of day, in order to determine direction of flight.
2) This ability is acquired with approximately four hours visual experience in direct sunlight
3) Virtual all of these birds experience at least four hours of direct sunlight, so virtually all acquire this ability.

And actually I think #3 is even irrelevant as its just a restatement of #1, the ability, with #2 as the reason for the ability.

Navigation in the Alder Flycatcher is innate? I still don't know.

But it seems important to point out that other birds and species of animals don't acquire this ability even though they do #2.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Don't most day flying migratory birds navigate by the sun?
Looks like bees wasps and butterflies might use the sun as a compass too.


I think for the purpose of the thought experiment we should limit ourselves to the information given, though.

 

[sac beh]

Don't most day flying migratory birds navigate by the sun?

You know, I used to study ornithology, but too many years have separated me from what I once knew.

Anyway, I'm sure there are other birds and animals that do the same. But my comment was probably really a distraction from the issue. Even if every species on the planet could acquire the same ability in the same way, it doesn't help us answer whether its innate or not in this damn bird, I guess.

 

[GMT]

I've seen around 18 years worth of sunlight, and I still need to ask for directions if that helps the issue at all

 

[sac beh]

I've seen around 18 years worth of sunlight, and I still need to ask for directions if that helps the issue at all

I guess it depends on whether you drank mother's milk or expensive formula..

 

[sac beh]

The author of this study has written a follow up in New Scientist, unfortunately it requires a paid subscription to view in full...

Our moral judgements affect our thinking in surprising ways, says Joshua Knobe. Test your own intuition

A CORPORATE executive is considering a new policy. He thinks: "I know this policy will harm the environment, but I don't care at all about that." So he implements the policy and, sure enough, the environment is harmed. Now ask yourself: did he harm the environment intentionally?

But suppose we now change the word "harm" to "help". So the executive thinks: "I know this policy will help the environment, but I don't care at all about that." He implements the policy, and the environment is helped. Did the executive help the environment intentionally?

These cases, or variations on them, have been given to participants in numerous studies - part of the growing field of experimental philosophy - and the results are always the same. ...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827822.000-morality-our-hidden-judgements.html

 

[BrainSellz]

Natural _
.......N-at-u-r-all = Inate you are all

Definitely some type of underlying meaning, imo

 

[GMT]

No idea what you're on about brain

Word Origin & History

natural

c.1300, naturel, "of one's inborn character, of the world of nature (especially as opposed to man)," from O.Fr. naturel, from L. naturalis "by birth, according to nature," from natura "nature"

 

[sac beh]

I think what he's getting at is that

N-at-u-r-all = Inate you are all

equals

5 1 2 3 9 1 3 3 = 9 5 1 2 5 7 6 3 1 9 5 1 3 3

which equals

27 = 60

But 27 doesn't equal 60, UNLESS...

you add 33...

And there were 33 Chilean miners rescued...

Which suggests that the mine rescue was really a sham meant to position the Chilean president for an NWO takeover soon...