Foolproof nutrient line integrity? for all you experts!

[pushlimits]

This is a direct call to arms for all you plant nutrition warriors out there. This means you toohighMF, Shroomdr, and all the like. This is a question to all you experienced Veteran's out there. I want to know a few things; effective products, feeding schedules and how you do it- like your favorite combos!

I have used many nutrient products over the years with good -but not great- results. This leads me to walk away unsure of a products effectiveness. This means a lot to me and I say such, with absolute sincerity If anyone's kind enough to assist me please read below:

Please don't say; genetics, co2, lighting, air and the like, this is not my question. I understand the different variables involved in growing exceptional cannabis. My question is with one variable in particular and only this one variable. I'm probably going hear things along the lines of- "you need better genetics" this is the furthest thing from what I'm asking or looking for! so please refrain if at all possible.

any and all questions or comments not pertaining to nutrition and or substrates feel free to visit my sig. I mean absolutely no disrespect.


I have no one fixed feeding method, things are negotiable, but here are some things to consider when making suggestions (if you are willing of course) currently I use;

• pro-mix with big perlite, (not necessarily fixed but its what going on now)
• I have a plant limit of 36. (it's why I use pro-mix)
• Watering is done all from one source (run to waste) that is automatically re-filled
• I prefer water source to have the option of residual nutrients left over that weren't used while watering (I have a PPM meter)
• Environment, cultural practices, and water quality are pretty much dialed in (but nothings perfect!)
• prefer to feed, feed, feed. currently I feed, water, feed, flush- fox farm's silly.
• I've used the daylights out of fox farm and Ionic, both very good products in there own right (although I would never recommend fox Farm to anyone- salt build up is ridiculous) I'm ready to move on.

In essence, I just don't know were to go from here? I need to see some professional feeding schedules, line-ups, and products that will provide my plants with everything they need. Then I will do further research and make a decision. Simple or elaborate answers will be very much appreciated. If more information is needed from me, you can look at my diary, (I tried very hard to cover all my bases there.) or feel free to contact me in any of the usual fashions. Again thank you, I truly mean it.

Here's a picture of my setup. Anyone who helps me decide on a feeding schedule can follow their suggestions progress along in my journal

 

[BlueberryLovr]

Imo, nutes are nutes. Use whatever is the best bang for the buck (and high quality) and keep things simple. No need for a shelf-full of bases and additives (complicates things and has higher potential to create problems).

Genetics, lighting, co2, and other environmental factors will play the biggest role in making fat-ass buds. Emphasis on the genetics and light.

 

[stillsmokin843]

Man I'm prob not of a lot of help try not to waste abunch of money or trying things but we all end up doing that the main two I have used is sensi and aqua flakes out of the two I def like sensi more plants seemed to like them alil more also. Best of luck to ya bro

 

[Snagglepuss]

Im no master by any means.But would like to ask a few questions. What size lamp do you use for flowering ,also what size pots for flowering?Big pots ,long veg ,correct temps,and careful watering have brought me great yields.

The foxfarm products i have used are super concentrated(cha-chin and open sesame) ,Im not crazy about them.I like the GH 3 part,and my favortite is Bio Bizz.Love the Dark Energy .Im sure most any nutes will work great if used correctly.Give us some more parameters ,to your growing cycle from start to finnish.What you grow,what you end up with .

The setup looks awesome ,very clean and tidy.Best wishes and keep on growin...

 

[pushlimits]

Imo, nutes are nutes. Use whatever is the best bang for the buck (and high quality) and keep things simple. No need for a shelf-full of bases and additives (complicates things and has higher potential to create problems).

Genetics, lighting, co2, and other environmental factors will play the biggest role in making fat-ass buds. Emphasis on the genetics and light.

"I understand completely different variables involved in growing exceptional cannabis. My question is with one variable in particular and only this variable." I'm sorry maybe I should word my question differently. But thank you. I do appreciate it.

Snagglepuss- again, my question is only with nutrition and substrates, and yes I appreciate your response- if there are more questions not pertaining to nutrients, feel free to look at my sig. I assure you, my cultural practices are not in question. (to me anyway)
I know what you mean by fox farm. Bio buzz- really, I'll have to look more into that! I have heard a lot of good things! thanks!


I am just humbled by the fact- there are people out there who know a great deal more about plant nutrition and fantastic products, then I.

Thank you sirsmokein- Shit yes buddy, Ive spent a lot of money on things I didn't need, that's why we need to hear more from the experts, so stay tuned!

 

[Carl Carlson]

I see that you used Ionic. Is that the one with the 3-1-6 and 3-2-6 N-P-K ratios?

You won't find too many if any more complete one part bottled water soluble fertilizers than that. Botanicare products contain similar ratios and I think Advanced (boooo!!!!! hiss!!!!) does as well in one product. DynaGro 9-3-6 is another.

It seems that something close to those ratios is best for most annual flowering plants.

dislcaimer: I am not of the school of thought that hydro or soilless WSF growers must cut Nitrogen down in flowering. I'm not sure you want to get into a debate of that on your thread anyways.

I think you'll find this thread on nutrient ratios in hemp and other plants interesting: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181405

IIRC, "Heath Robinson" uses or used to use Ionic Grow and Bloom and nothing else in some of his truly impressive yielding grows.

Some of us are now using Peters Professional Hydro / Jacks Hydro + Calcium Nitrate to achieve these same ratios, but without spending all of that extra money on watered down bottles. These are bags of dry, water soluble fertilizer that dissolve instantly in water.

I've got links if you are curious in buying those.

Like TooHigh, I also use a Potassium Silicate product in soilless and hydro grows. If I could buy a 25 or 50 # bag of that it would be nice, but haven't found it yet.

And finally, in my last grow, several substrate mixes were tested and one of them was Sungro MetroMix 366 with Coir. It contains a starter charge of Nitrate Nitrogen and I believe that this and not the substrate component mix is what led to a much taller and higher yielding plant, compared to it's counterpart in plain coir. I think most of the coir and peat using crowd could benefit either from a starter nutrient charge or from incorporating controlled release fertilizers into their mixes. The latter is something that I've just started working with. Scotts Osmocote Plus - 12 macros and micros - a complete CRF that can be used alone with plain water or with a WSF in addition to it. There are many other CRF products for diff. combinations of macros and micros. Studies have shown that a combination of the two is better than just one.

 

[toohighmf]

Maxibloom is very similar to Lucas formula. It is ph buffered, it easily dissolves, and a $12 can should get you through a whole cycle. It lacks humics and is a little low on the CA & Mg side. A cal mag supplement and humic based product like Gh floralicious+ has everything your base doesn't to grow really high quality meds. I also use molasses too. My favorite base is dynabloom 1 part liquid. I would still add Calmg and floralicious+
if budget is not an issue, some amino blast or possibly nutri+ bud+ and a silicate. A week before flush I use koolbloom powder as a ripener. It's pretty cheap and hardens up buds nicely.
You may want to hit up Carl carlson, as he knows all the good inexpensive non hydro shop food and where to get it. Hydroshop ferts & adds really are a total rip off.

 

[pushlimits]

Carl, Toohigh thank you both very much. you guys are a credit to growers everywhere.

This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. Thank you! I appreciate this more then you guys could believe.

I now have a template to go off of. Hopefully I'll narrow down my search and stop wasting money.

I've been growing for a good amount of time, but when I look at a sunleaf catalog (nutrients are the largest section) or walk into a hydro store, I can't help but feel cheated, and confused.

Ionic, huh?- makes sense my absolute best grows were with this, but I stopped when I got the fox farm.

Again, Thank you guys. This was Just what I needed.

 

[ShroomDr]

I dont know shit.

Ive got that thread that has close to 50 products listed, but to accurately gauge each one's effectiveness, i would want at least 8-12 weeks testing each product. I certainly have no interest in doing that (for the next 5-8 years).

What i do know, and what is possible is to compare and contrast them, and make inferences based on the information they present.

You can see they all use the same basic ingredients (WATER, calcium nitrate, potassium phosphate, magnesium sulfate, etc).
You can see which ones are the middle of the road, and which ones are outliers.
You can compare how individual manufactures change their recommendation from one substrate to another (CNS17 Bloom Hydro vs CNS17 Bloom Coco. Their coco recipe has less P & K, but with more Ca). (Look at their position on a periodic table, K, Ca, Mg [and Na] all compete with each other. As coco breaks down, it releases K, this must be factored in (so CNS17 Coco drops the K level, accounting for the K in the substrate).


As far as which way i would lean. Lower P levels in my base, (Just like Carl's mentioned). Technaflora has a Recipe for Success, that is just about full proof. They put their micros in the 2nd bottle (of the two part), they list EC levels, and they appear to be very open and unguarded about their products (Botanicare considers micro ppm levels proprietary, Whats in GH Floralicous? lets not get started with Bud Factor X or Scorpion Juice lol).

All that said, Genetics are a HUGE role! Mythbusters proved you can polish a turd (but never proved why you would want to).

 

[toohighmf]

Ionic is great stuff. I gotta grab me some! To me it's very similar to dynabloom containing all 18 essential minerals, micros & macros, concentrated, & PH stabile.

 

[pushlimits]

The best grows I've had were with Ionic, hands down. But I stopped using it for three reasons:

1. No one really talks about (or uses) it as much as the other products. this makes it so I have no other grows to base a good judgment. No "big" growers used Ionic. this made me feel like everyone knew something I didn't by using other products.
2. The hydro shop I patron has close ties to hydrodynamics from way back. Every employee says they "use only Ionic." They all had a hard time keeping there stories straight with me. finally I got one of them to spill the beans- they are all required to say that!
3. This unscrupulous practice of making employees lie, made me automatically dismiss the credibility of the brand.

Everything you guys are telling me, makes perfect sense. My fears have gone unfounded and I'm a fool for dismissing them so soon. but honestly, with brands out there like Advanced Nutrients- do you guys blame me? I don't buy a bottle of nutrients without my ass feeling sore after! maybe it won't happen again. thank you guys very much.

 

[jammie]

The best grows I've had were with Ionic, hands down. But I stopped using it for three reasons:

1. No one really talks about (or uses) it as much as the other products. this makes it so I have no other grows to base a good judgment. No "big" growers used Ionic. this made me feel like everyone knew something I didn't by using other products.
2. The hydro shop I patron has close ties to hydrodynamics from way back. Every employee says they "use only Ionic." They all had a hard time keeping there stories straight with me. finally I got one of them to spill the beans- they are all required to say that!
3. This unscrupulous practice of making employees lie, made me automatically dismiss the credibility of the brand.

Everything you guys are telling me, makes perfect sense. My fears have gone unfounded and I'm a fool for dismissing them so soon. but honestly, with brands out there like Advanced Nutrients- do you guys blame me? I don't buy a bottle of nutrients without my ass feeling sore after! maybe it won't happen again. thank you guys very much.

wow- me too, but i stopped using the ionic line cause my shop kept telling me how great flora nova was, and on all the forums flora nova and lucas was all the rage

 

[Carl Carlson]

The Lucas formula ratios obviously work, but they're not based on tissue nutrient analysis.

On the other hand, I think the 3-1-2, 3-2-4, 3-2-6 ratios are.

FWIW, if I couldn't buy the Jacks or Peters hydro formulas and wasn't intent on experimenting with CRFs and Organics (again), than I would use Ionic Grow & Bloom. CNS-17 Hydro grow is another good one. 3-2-4 with 2.8% Ca. Note that all of the Botanicare base fertilizers use the 3-1-2 or 3-2-4 ratio.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I will second Carls recommendation for the Scotts Hydro Pro plus calcium nitrate in RO water. Easiest thing I have ever used and best results...both quality and quantity. The ratios are one thing, especially the relatively low P and high K (3-1-4 elemental NPK...not P2O5, K2O), 4-2-1 (K-Ca-Mg) but also the high S (about 1.3 times the Mg). Crystal formation, smell and taste were all improved for me.

No doubt the Ionic would work very well as does GH in 1/1/1 ratios with some extra epsom salts. But why pay so much

Just go to http://jrpeterslab.com/ and look under specialty chemicals. Be careful about shipping though, if you don't ask for something different the box will say plant food on the outside.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Heath Robinson is back on ICMAG.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181239&page=2

 

[ShroomDr]

unfortunately, no he isnt. He came back and posted for about 18 hours, and hasnt posted since july 13.

Posts Made By: heath robinson

Im assuming his regular site must have been down, so he went back (or he was creeped out by all the attention).

 

[pufferfish]

...this might help..go to post 12...http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=185625&highlight=fuzz420